Idle musings on death

[uteck]

One aspect of Exalted that I think many people overlook, and I know my group has in previous campaigns, is the treatment of the dead. We have followed the D&D approach of "kill things and loot the corpses". But this is the wrong approach in Exalted and the way death works is foreign and takes a bit of thought to understand.


The Core book, page 317

For the ï¬rst three nights after death, the soul of a hungry ghost is complete, and the ghost can search intelligently for its murderer, even contacting old allies for help in avenging its death.

This changes the whole concept of death for most people. Simply killing an opponent or rival is not the best method depending on the situation, especially for social situations, since the passions of the slain may bring them back to fight you from beyond the grave for 3 nights at least, but that may be enough time to cause you long-term grief. This is the ultimate dead-mans switch since a strong willed and passionate person can come back, and for a mortal they are even more powerful now since they have an Essence pool.


I imagine the ghost of a God-Blooded mortal would be even more powerful since it may be able to still use it's Spirit charms, or is that stretching it too much? The books don't address dead God-Blooded, but that seems like it could be fun, or perhaps a differnt creation method for making Ghost-Blooded if you don't like the idea of the dead making babies.


What about all the mortal guards you may have to fight your way past to get to that thing you want? Do you want to risk a number of them rising as ghosts, even if they don't come after you, what about the surrounding area and the people that live there?


I was thinking that large cities might have a public service to care for the dead of the poor to prevent ghosts from wondering around. The Shantytown in Kirigast could be a breeding ground for hungry ghosts if the dead are not buried and minimum funerary rights done that next day. Good thing their is an Immaculate temple nearby and they don't shirk their duties too much we hope.


The treatment of the dead seems to have been a problem since before the Primordial war, why else do the Zenith cast have the power to force the hun and po to move on immediately? After a battle the dead need to be taken care of quickly to prevent another battle that night, unless the victorious force leaves the area and the ghosts behind for the enemy to deal with?


Also, how hard is it bind a hungry ghost? The book says on page 318;

Anyone with Occult 3+ can bind a hungry ghost once the higher spirit is gone.

But I have not found the ritual for this anywhere, although binding a mindless ghost is of limited use.
What other societal impact does the possibility of the dead rising from the grave impart :?:

 

[cyl]

Very interesting topic that one

We have followed the D&D approach of "kill things and loot the corpses".

Whoever that "we" is, but "we" is doing it wrong ! :roll:

This changes the whole concept of death for most people. Simply killing an opponent or rival is not the best method depending on the situation, especially for social situations, since the passions of the slain may bring them back to fight you from beyond the grave for 3 nights at least, but that may be enough time to cause you long-term grief.

IIRC the Po lingers on only for the night, and comes back to its body every dawn. Direct sunlight automatically destroys it... so whoever you kill, you'd better bail within the next 24hrs and be at least at a 12 hours of walking distance of the location of the body (which makes dropping the body in a flowing river even more useful !)

I was thinking that large cities might have a public service to care for the dead of the poor to prevent ghosts from wondering around.

From what I read from Nexus and Chiaroscuro, it's definitely not the case. Wherever there is poverty, misery, crime and high death rates... there are ghosts, hungry ghosts, and shadowlands.
Cool thing though is that some ghosts can take care of the hungry ghost for the living, and racket them for protection prayers :twisted:

The treatment of the dead seems to have been a problem since before the Primordial war, why else do the Zenith cast have the power to force the hun and po to move on immediately?

Not exactly... the broken wheel has not always been broken... once only the Po posed problem as an inherent part of the human soul.
Hungry ghosts have existed since mankind existed, and only after the creation of the underworld were the Hun problematic.


So it's only natural that the Zenith have this innate power to "bring peace to the dead" since even before there was a ghost, there were hungry ghosts.

But I have not found the ritual for this anywhere, although binding a mindless ghost is of limited use.

Might be in the codex in the arts of the dead.

What other societal impact does the possibility of the dead rising from the grave impart :?:

Well, lots of them.
First of all the consequences of becoming undead and "not living" on... imagine your loved ones being stuck as ghosts, shades of their former selves, trapped in a static state they can only hope to get out of... obviously their psyche would change, and interacting with the underworld would change them furthermore (there are some nasty people there ! :twisted: ). But giving that they be able to communicate with the living, they could be a source of knowledge, love and many things.


Sijan is only the most frequent and famous place where the dead and the living interact on a daily basis, you can find those places all around Creation.


The only serious question being... are the dead under the influence of the Void ? (through Nephwarck indoctrination / Deathlord servitude).

 

[Jukashi]

This isn't quite relevant to "kill them and take their stuff", but I think I recall a note somewhere that natural causes (including death by natural disaster or environmental hazard) result in much less in the way of hungry ghosts. It's probably something to do with the metaphysical impact of malice and natural essence flows and such.


I would also assume that some beastie eating a corpse would prevent it from spawning a ghost. Perhaps you should get a big betoothéd pet to take care of your enemies!

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

See also KILL IT WITH FIRE. There's a reason that cremation is a pretty common practice in Exalted. If you destroy the body, the hungry ghost has nowhere to flee when daylight comes. Sunlight destroys a hungry ghost. Problem solved.

 

[Captain Hesperus]

Necromancy, Shade Prison Amulet.


Oh yeah.


Captain Hesperus

 

[uteck]

It is implied that funerary rights force the hun and po apart but is it spelled out anywhere that this is a fact?


If burning a corpse was enough, then why did the Dragon-Blooded build such elaborate tombs filled with priceless artifacts, then have to set summoned and created guardians and various traps to protect it all? Do attuned artifacts count as part of your body as far as hungry ghosts are concerned? Could a mortal have a similar attachment that would allow him to continue on, if even only briefly, after he is dead? Does all this mean that people can haunted artifacts that some ghost is attached to? (i.e The Sword of my Ancestors)

 

[Virjigorm]

It is implied that funerary rights force the hun and po apart but is it spelled out anywhere that this is a fact?
If burning a corpse was enough, then why did the Dragon-Blooded build such elaborate tombs filled with priceless artifacts, then have to set summoned and created guardians and various traps to protect it all? Do attuned artifacts count as part of your body as far as hungry ghosts are concerned? Could a mortal have a similar attachment that would allow him to continue on, if even only briefly, after he is dead? Does all this mean that people can haunted artifacts that some ghost is attached to? (i.e The Sword of my Ancestors)

I think the practice of elaborate Solar tombs can be attributed to the fear that the ghosts of millennia-old god-kings might take more appeasing than the old farmer down the road. During their long lives the Solars of the first age built up passions and grudges far surpassing a mere mortal lifetime of devotion or hatred. One might think this fear unfounded but for the minor inconvenience of a dozen or so Deathlords running around.

 

[cyl]

It is implied that funerary rights force the hun and po apart but is it spelled out anywhere that this is a fact?
If burning a corpse was enough, then why did the Dragon-Blooded build such elaborate tombs filled with priceless artifacts, then have to set summoned and created guardians and various traps to protect it all? Do attuned artifacts count as part of your body as far as hungry ghosts are concerned? Could a mortal have a similar attachment that would allow him to continue on, if even only briefly, after he is dead? Does all this mean that people can haunted artifacts that some ghost is attached to? (i.e The Sword of my Ancestors)

IIRC the funerary rites simply increase the chances of "not becoming a ghost" and sending the Hun back to Lethe.


No hun within the body, no Po attached to it for 3 days... no body (reduced to ashes)... no Po.


It is just that simple if I'm not forgetting something.


But burning the body is not an automatic return to Lethe, so even if you burn the body, you can't make sure that no ghost is formed. And I can easily imagine why Dragon Blooded and Sidereals would make the greatest tombs ever for the essence 9+ dead solars... I know I wouldn't want to have such a ghost pissed at me !


Plus I suspect that the siddies knew that these solars wouldn't let go that easily and they buried them with all their possessions on purpose, to have them ruling over the underworld...


Anyway, back on the matter at hand, only individuals with strong ties to Creation (be they loved ones, unfinished business or a gruesome and unjust death provoking the need for vengeance) will become ghosts, but all intact bodies will have a hungry ghost tied to it defending the corpse.


In some cases, the hungry ghost stay within the boudaries of the body forever.


Scavenging a First Age Solar tomb might make you meet one of those dangerous bastards.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Indeed. Ghosts have no need for a body, unlike Hungry Ghosts. And tend to have similar Essence to when they died. This can make for some quite competent individuals, still...with reason to be pissed, the ability to get up again and again from dead unless destroyed by spirit slaying charms...and potentially less than happy. Fire will handle your Hungry Ghost problem. Not a thing for ensuring the Hun goes on properly.

 

[MorkaisChosen]

Hence Deathlords. There's also an interesting flipside, with benevolent ghosts hagning round and helping out their descendants, and of course they can do that better if they have more Stuff.

 

[Teln]

Now I'm picturing an apologetic First Age Solar-Hun hanging around his old tomb, helping out his great-to-the-nth-power grandkids.

 

[cyl]

Hence Deathlords. There's also an interesting flipside, with benevolent ghosts hagning round and helping out their descendants, and of course they can do that better if they have more Stuff.

Yep, hence grave goods !


But generally, even though "good" ghosts exist and are not self absorbed pricks / creatures of darkness... unfortunately for these good ghosts and the living, in the underworld, the bad guys are more numerous AND more powerful.


Plus... a good ghost might have a better chance of being dissolved into the void (facing one of its servants), or finding peace at last and finding his path to Lethe and reincarnation... which makes powerful benevolent ghosts a true rarity... just look at how Varan or the Sages ended up

 

[MorkaisChosen]

Now I'm picturing an apologetic First Age Solar-Hun hanging around his old tomb, helping out his great-to-the-nth-power grandkids.

I've got a character concept with Mentor 3 that involves something not entirely different...


I'll accept that there'll be a lot less "good" ghosts, but Solars are possibly a likely source of 'em- I'm told the Curse disappears after death (when they lose the Exaltation), so you could well have someone that's really annoyed they got killed by the Terrestrials and is watching out for their former subjects- and maybe waiting for someone that can take up their legacy.

 

[cyl]

Very unlikely IMO.


The last First Age Solars died more than 2 millenias ago (except for those in the Invisible Fortress...). If they formed a new nobility back then, the rise of the deathlord would have seen them anihilated... provided they survived that long in the Underworld without falling back to Lethe.


But of course anything is possible, this is exalted after all.

 

[MorkaisChosen]

I definitely wasn't thinking of them being common, just an unusually high proportion of the rare benevolent ghosts- one or two near Sijan, maybe a couple more in each Direction. They'd really have to keep to themselves most of the time to avoid getting ganked by Deathlords.

 

[Kyeudo]

Most of the First Age ghosts that died in the Usurpation fought one last war, against the hordes of specters pouring from the Labyrinth. Solar, Lunar, Sidereal, and Terrestrial ghosts put aside their "hey, you just killed me!" grievances and fought as one to save the Underworld from being overrun by the forces of Oblivion. Then, most of them chose to pass on to Lethe and send one final message to those still alive. Many Solars sent appologies for their terrible behavior, many Bronze Faction Sidereals told their friend "We were wrong", and many Gold Faction Sidereals said "We were right!"


Basicaly, the First Age Solars died like the supreme badasses they were, going out with one last blaze of unsullied glory.

 

[Captain Hesperus]

Hence Deathlords. There's also an interesting flipside, with benevolent ghosts hagning round and helping out their descendants, and of course they can do that better if they have more Stuff.

Indeed. This very event I used recently in my current story. The group's Lunar enters the tomb of her First Age mate only to find the ghost of a Dragon-Blooded retainer standing watch over her remains and gear. Cue: one detailed and involving monologue describing the dark times of the Usurpation from an eye-witness POV and the introduction of a real twist, the Lunar's First Age incarnations' youngest Golden Child, trapped in an Eternal Crystalline Encasement!


Captain Hesperus

 

[MorkaisChosen]

Hence Deathlords. There's also an interesting flipside' date=' with benevolent ghosts hagning round and helping out their descendants, and of course they can do that better if they have more Stuff.[/quote']
Indeed. This very event I used recently in my current story. The group's Lunar enters the tomb of her First Age mate only to find the ghost of a Dragon-Blooded retainer standing watch over her remains and gear. Cue: one detailed and involving monologue describing the dark times of the Usurpation from an eye-witness POV and the introduction of a real twist, the Lunar's First Age incarnations' youngest Golden Child, trapped in an Eternal Crystalline Encasement!


Captain Hesperus

Now that's cool. I assume this Terrestrial wasn't entirely happy with his successors, then?

 

[Skycroft]

Most of the First Age ghosts that died in the Usurpation fought one last war, against the hordes of specters pouring from the Labyrinth. Solar, Lunar, Sidereal, and Terrestrial ghosts put aside their "hey, you just killed me!" grievances and fought as one to save the Underworld from being overrun by the forces of Oblivion. Then, most of them chose to pass on to Lethe and send one final message to those still alive. Many Solars sent appologies for their terrible behavior, many Bronze Faction Sidereals told their friend "We were wrong", and many Gold Faction Sidereals said "We were right!"
Basicaly, the First Age Solars died like the supreme badasses they were, going out with one last blaze of unsullied glory.

Would someone please tell me which book this is in?

 

[Plague of Hats]

Would someone please tell me which book this is in?

It mars the pages of Compass: Underworld like a festering wound.

 

[Captain Hesperus]

Now that's cool. I assume this Terrestrial wasn't entirely happy with his successors, then?

Nope, he was a 'Gold Faction' Dragon-Blooded in life, totally in love with the Solars and he took the Usurpation very badly. He's since retreated to the Underworld with the Motivation, "Seek out my Solar lord and serve them loyally."


Captain Hesperus

 

[Michael Talpas]

When discussing the funerary practices of human beings, one must always take into account a most important facet of human nature: Laziness.


In cities with high crime rates and human mortality rates, one might think that there would be ghosts running around all over the place, and that it would be very difficult to kill someone. Firstly: There are ghosts running around all over the place. And, while it is difficult to kill someone, it is not as difficult as one might think.


Any criminal organization is probably going to have one or two thaumaturges on retainer, able to do the bare minimum of warding off ghosts, exercising them entirely, or doing funerary rights.


A lone criminal may be able to kill a man, but he is not likely to stick around anyway: the hungry ghost of his victim is the last of his worries, as Exalted, Spirits, and other human beings will be investigating the murder and looking for him.


In areas of dissolution, where people die in small huts because they have no food, they don't really have anything to avenge. If they do feel they have something against someone (the slumlord who owns the ghetto, the gang members who broke his legs and left him to rot, etc.), he may rise and seek them out, but again, exorcists can be hired to take care of such threats, and the guards who's job it is to keep the peace, are going to be uninterested in a ghost blaming someone else for his woes. Afterall, if they didn't care while he was alive, why do they care now that he's dead?


Most large cities will probably have an organization who regularly patrol and take the bodies for disposal (probably by burning). This is to avoid a large build up of hungry ghosts inside the walls. As for the ghosts in the Underworld, if a city has anything in the way of Shadowlands, they may have to worry about that, but beyond that, ghosts are dream monsters, who occasionally garner worship, but beyond that, they are generally not a serious threat to a city. No more so than any other cult.


The only time when these things become an actual threat is when you, the Storyteller, want to wipe out the city, or have the Players defend it. Story Hooks abound. Have fun!