How would the Dynast's react to PROOF of the truth?

P

Persell

Ten Thousand Club
how do you think the average dragon blooded would react to Incontravertable evidence of the truth concerning the usurpation.


I see two distinct potential reactions.


1: "AAH!!! Cant let this become common knowlege, if it was known that my claim to divine mandate in my rule was just BS-though I allready knew that Im not stupid-  The peasants wouldnt work for me as slaves anymore!"


2: "WHAT FIENDS CALLED THEMSELVES MY ANCESTORS!?!" Weeps, and begins promptly oblivertating immaculate shrines left and right  "Im going to find a worthy general among the solars and swear my undieing alleigance to him"


whihc of those two reactions do you think is more likely, (note I said "Incontravertable, in orther words "Oh this is just lies the anathema are constructing" has allready been ruled out.
 
Um, maybe those two, but I think the Anathema are lying is still one my friend. Seriously, how would the Christian faith react to proof that Christ did blah blah (insert random unthinkable thing here)? It's the same deal. Truth beyond a doubt doesn't matter. Do you know what hard line fanatics and dogma, nearly 2000 years of it can put into people?


You can't simply say, "Ok, we've been looking for five months and found this! REPENT! AND OBEY US ALL!" Doesn't work that way.
 
I can imagine... considering how some people abandoned their faith from the STUPID speculation in "The davinci code"


errh.... I'll skip telling you who the writer is going to hell


But im thinking of finding some ancient document, in ruins or some such.


(e.g. not something the solars showed him)


It might be interesting...


I know the two Ideas I presented probayl seemed biased as one might think theirs perfectly good reasons, even after accepting such stories as true, to keep the Statu quo in place... though I cant discern any, other then that destroying so many peoples faith could cause anarchy... but that doesnt mean anything to me.
 
Then why ask the question? You're sitting here asking WHAT they would think and do if they got irrefutiable evidence and then you say you don't care about the anarchy that follows?


What the fuck?
 
Thing is, if you look at the hints about the place, many Dynasts KNOW what happened. And they keep at it. Because, partly, they're right. The Anathema ARE horribly cursed and they ARE dangerous to Creation, and letting them have the reign of the place could have very serious consequences.
 
is their a reason not to overthrow the IO OTHER Then the "Everyone will lose their faith, if its proven to have been a lie, some may even grow violent towards former priests" argument, is what I was asking.
 
The Dynasts are politicians. They, like the Sidereals, know that the IO is a useful tool. Not only does it keep them in command, it does a lot of good for the common people as well. Who protests against abusive Dynasts? The Immaculates. Who educates the peasantry? The Immaculates!
 
Faith aside the IO gives order to the world. A lot of people adhere to it. Gives stability and so on. The Realm and the Lookshy DBs have always known, the General Staff has a slightly better picture of Anathema but they agree the IO keeps things better than they were. The DBs only look at the last five hundred years of Solar rule when the corruption ramped up.
 
The question presumes that what the game tells us is automatically true, while what the IO teaches is false.  That is a convenient attitude that we as players can take, but I would be loath to encounter inside the game world.  We as players know that the canon is canon, but in the thick of things, coming to such a conclusion is virtually impossible.  Besides, creation was left, by divine mandate, to the exalted to rule, with the solars on the top of the hierarchy and the rest of the exalted arrayed beneath them.  With all other exalted currently in absentia, the DB do have a divine mandate to rule over creation.


More the the point, though, look at the past 50 years of real world politics.  There are a great many things that are still speculated on.  The general populace knows only a fraction of what really goes on anywhere and reality is more of a speculative conjecture than a series of hard and fast truths.  People are still debating the events that led up to the Vietnam War, let alone the Iraq War.  Compound such obfuscation over 4000 years and you have a much larger problem.


In the end, what really matters is stability and the lives of the people who support the infrastructure.  The realm and the IO are certainly heavy handed and oppressive, but it's not like they are any worse than any major organization that proceeded them in any time.  Simply put, from the moment that the Primordials dredged creation up out of the chaos, it has been a complete disaster from a societal standpoint.  Given the tools that they have at their disposal, the IO and the Dynasts have made an excellent run at maintaining order within creation and frankly, lets be honest, the world would have been better off if none of the souls within the jade prison had ever been released.  The first age is lauded as the height of creation where everything was right with the world, but the fact of the matter is that the first age was a hallmark of productivity, plenty and excess, although we know that portions of it were rotten to the core.  The current realm's only failing is that it lacks the economic power that the first age did, but ethically and morally, there's no proof that the first age was a more "enlightened" period.


Given the two options, though I prefer neither, i would say 1 is most likely, though it would probably be a bit more introspectively pragmatic than "Oh gee, I like priviledge and whiping people because I'm eveeel!"  In a world where all paths are balanced precariously over destruction, 'the ends justify the means' doesn't sound so wicked.
 
another issue.


do you think that ALL the solars excesses, added up.


The casual killing of children who made too much children during Kal baxes tea, the butchery of a village for raiding caravans, the forging the voices of 50 boys into a Circlet, etc.


and everything else would have killed more people , if it had been allowed to continue, then say, the great contagion alone?


I think not. :)
 
Do you think ALL of the solars excessess killed more people then the great contagion did on its own.


I think it didnt, yes the siderals didnt expect it, but im just pointing that out.
 
Um...no one ever said it did. Most people lived in lavish vcomfort compared to the modern day and sure they had excess, but not to that point. They were not on a genocidal rampage by far...
 
Sato said:
 Besides, creation was left, by divine mandate, to the exalted to rule, with the solars on the top of the hierarchy and the rest of the exalted arrayed beneath them.  With all other exalted currently in absentia, the DB do have a divine mandate to rule over creation.
lets be honest, the world would have been better off if none of the souls within the jade prison had ever been released.  The first age is lauded as the height of creation where everything was right with the world, but the fact of the matter is that the first age was a hallmark of productivity, plenty and excess, although we know that portions of it were rotten to the core.  The current realm's only failing is that it lacks the economic power that the first age did, but ethically and morally, there's no proof that the first age was a more "enlightened" period.


  .
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Huh?


if the dragon blooded abided by their place in the celestial order they would be KNEELING before the solars, not killing them.


And "Everyone else would have been better off if those in the jade prison had never been released?


The bull of the north has allready cleansed the north of a good deal of the Dynastic Presence, making things freer and better..


many solars are also at work destroying the realms hold on the threshold, and cleansing creation of the foul practice of slavery.
 
Um...no one ever said it did. Most people lived in lavish vcomfort compared to the modern day and sure they had excess' date=' but not to that point. They were not on a genocidal rampage by far...[/quote']
thats what im trying to say.


that people in generla would have been better off if the solars had continued... for all their decadence their buerucracy and socialize charms made things much bette.r
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Well yes, it's true, it's simply the EXALTS who didn't like what was happening. A Point no one ever really realizes.
 
ah


Solars = Tzars


DBs = Commies


Kejak = Stalin


explains the whole 'scarlet empire' bit too


scarlet == red after all
 
Given the magic that solars have access to any documentary proof could be faked. A full public personal confession from the bronze faction sidereals would convince some but others would claim the anathema had used there evil sorcery on the leaders of the immaculate order.


Once you convinced them you would have the 2 responses stated, and some that would hush it up for the sake of peace. Some that would expose it for a high rank in the solar army’s, some that would expose the truth with a new negative spin on the solars and use the cayos to rise to the position of leader of the realm, and some that would take the information to there current leigh and continue to follow him I whatever action he chose to take
 
I'll give you an alternate view. I'm tired of some people who just take the solar propaganda for their own thoughts :P


What do you mean "The Bull of the north has made the north a better place"?


Has he? What do we know? It's a war-torn world, where brigands, plunderers and poor people are in excess after years of a horrible war with sorcery and chaos. Demons are loose in the area, people are dying on a daily basis. Spirits are probably rather liberally taking things, new shadowlands have been created. Just because some people wanted to be "free"


Compare that to the peasantry of the realm. No sacrifices to strange spirits, no brigands, no war, no death.


Yes, you have to sacrifice some of your food and income to the Realm, but what does that matter? You get to live in relative peace, marry a woman from the nearest village, cultivate your crops, take care of your rice fields and see your children grow up to be good healthy farmers. You dont have any slaves, you have full faith that the Immaculate Order will protect you from evil and that the world is a good place. That's the life of the vast majority of normal people on the realm, or things would be rather odd.
 
If you'd reach you head out of that DB propoganda and read, say the Lunars book. You'd find no one likes the Bull, he ruined thousands of years of peace and prosperity for his people. He effectively cut all their ties with their totem spirits, starving them of their food and fucking over the land.


It's not all Solar propaganda my boy. You have a two sided view. The DB and Solar, one must look at all the sides. Whether you like it or not :P
 
The contagion was an unfortunate event but, while it is part of the chain of events started with the usurpation, it is not a direct result of the usurpation... it's convenient to say that the contagion would never have happened if the solars hadn't been imprisoned but I think that's way overly simplistic.


The deathlords aren't the real threat, the malfeans are.  The usurpation probably sped their plans up by a few centuries, but that doesn't mean that corrupt beings like the deathlords wouldn't have eventually evolved without the aid of the usurpation.  The contagion (or a catastrophe of equal proportion) was an inevitability, it would have happened sooner or later, the means used to accomplish it are incidental.  Blaming the contagion on the sidereals or dragonblooded is foolish.


Therefore, I assert that the usurpation and the contagion are unrelated events, that one cannot weigh the costs of either against the other and that there's no way to say whether creation would be better or worse off if the solars had been around during such a disaster.
 
Another few things...


TBotN is a despot and he's just brought bloody war to the region.  The people of the area have achieved freedom through servitude - they essentially traded one master for another, and at least the Realm and the Guild brought things like food, cloth and trade goods.  I wonder if their lives are so much better now.


Second, divine mandate takes on a whole new meaning when you have direct communication with heaven.  The bronze faction maintains political authority in YuShan which, right there, means that the incarna are okay with what they chose to do.  2000 years have passed and Kejak hasn't even gotten slapped on the wrist for what he instigated with the usurpation.  Obviously the UC doesn't care about what happened so long ago, why should the divine mandate derived from his supremacy contradict his complicity?  It is well within the right and ability of the UC to exact justice against anything contrary to his will and to date, he has refrained from doing so, which suggests that such a divine mandate is erroneous.
 
Sato said:
It is well within the right and ability of the UC to exact justice against anything contrary to his will and to date, he has refrained from doing so, which suggests that such a divine mandate is erroneous.
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Or that he's so engrossed in the Games of Divinity that he hasn't even left the Jade Pleasure Dome since shortly after the Usurpation, from which time the world has changed nigh-completely.


Which, incidentally, is the prevailing opinion.
 
Well, either way it still amounts to the same thing; in his current state, he is unconcerned with the matter of affairs of creation - it doesn't matter WHY he thinks how he does, just that he does.
 
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