Other How many genders?

[Project Naiad]

gender is a concept. it's a social construct that exists within human society. it's something that humans have invented and that's something that cannot be denied.

IMO gender is not a social construct. Sure it is heavily influenced by society, but it originates from biology.

within the last few centuries, more and more people have been defined as "intersex". that means biologically, they don't fit into "female" or "male".

Intersex has been mentioned before in the thread. These people are anomalies, so yes they should be taken in consideration, but one can't base a concept such as gender that influences the whole human population on a minority originating from an anomaly.

Then there is the gender is a spectrum part, and your said that people fall on a set point in the spectrum. I actually agree with that. But then you mentioned agenders, how can one fall in the spectrum and be off the spectrum at the same time?

Next is the historical thing. I agree that minorities tend to be erased from history, but nevertheless homosexuality can be found throughout the centuries, even as far back as ancient egypt, while alternative genders are a rarity.
(Also I'm Italian, and I can tell you, there is no proof that Da Vinci was homosexual, there are some hints and theories, but not facts thank you very much.)

And finally yeah, I have no problem if anyone wants to identify as a squirrel. The purpose of this thread was to share opinions on whether these people have an actual condition that can be measured scientifically or not.

 

[Iskandar]

Disregard this, someone posted the link already

 

[jinkx]

Intersex has been mentioned before in the thread. These people are anomalies, so yes they should be taken in consideration, but one can't base a concept such as gender that influences the whole human population on a minority originating from an anomaly.

i was making a point about how science has progressed regarding biological sex and gender identity. whereas intersex people weren't regarded as their own sex before, they are now because of how society and human knowledge of anatomy has progressed. the same thing can be applied to gender identity- we know more about these things now and can therefore think about them in a more liberal sense instead of a traditional sense.

also intersex people prove to an extent that gender is a social construct.

traditionally, you are assigned the gender that matches your sex at birth. if your biological sex is female, they slap female as your gender and vice versa. but if you are intersex, your sex doesn't match a traditional gender. "male" or "female" is assigned to you regardless. despite intersex people not meeting the "criteria" when it comes to being assigned a gender, they are assigned one anyway. i think intersex people prove how desperate society can be to put everybody in a box or under a label.

those are simply my thoughts on the matter however. i cannot speak for intersex people because i am not one.

Then there is the gender is a spectrum part, and your said that people fall on a set point in the spectrum. I actually agree with that. But then you mentioned agenders, how can one fall in the spectrum and be off the spectrum at the same time?

i think it's a case by case basis thing as to whether an agender/genderless person considers themselves on the gender spectrum. generally i would count it as being on the gender spectrum, despite it meaning genderless because it IS still a gender identity to some extent.

like how asexual means "doesn't experience sexual attraction" but it still counts as a sexual orientation.

that sounds like a case-by-case basis, depending on how define the gender spectrum. personally i would consider having no gender to be on one end of the spectrum and having multiple genders to be on the other end but that's just my view.

Next is the historical thing. I agree that minorities tend to be erased from history, but nevertheless homosexuality can be found throughout the centuries, even as far back as ancient egypt, while alternative genders are a rarity.

here are some interesting articles i found about gender identity throughout history!!

• 10 nonbinary genders throughout history
• gender diversity throughout cultures
• gender variance around the world

there are way more but it's 2am and you can find them through google easy-peasy!! just look up "gender identity throughout history" or "nonbinary genders throughout history".

(Also I'm Italian, and I can tell you, there is no proof that Da Vinci was homosexual, there are some hints and theories, but not facts thank you very much.)

he drew an erotic image of a man and titled it "the incarnate angel". he was also convicted of sodomy (twice, i think). the majority of historians agree that he was either homosexual or possibly asexual. that man wasn't any straighter than i am.

And finally yeah, I have no problem if anyone wants to identify as a squirrel. The purpose of this thread was to share opinions on whether these people have an actual condition that can be measured scientifically or not.

i don't like the word "condition" because it implies that identifying outside of the gender binary is some kind of affliction or disorder, which isn't true at all. if we're talking scientifically, there's no real way to measure "male" or "female" genders either. they're just something that's accepted in western culture and you don't have to "prove" they exist.

don't you think it's weird that we all have to accept "male" and "female" genders exist but i have to pull sources and articles out of my ass just to prove that my gender exists? just because it's not considered a norm in western society yet? and we are getting there with getting gender identities accepted too. you can apply to be legally recognised as an "other" gender in some places.

 

[Project Naiad]

i think it's a case by case basis thing as to whether an agender/genderless person considers themselves on the gender spectrum. generally i would count it as being on the gender spectrum, despite it meaning genderless because it IS still a gender identity to some extent.

like how asexual means "doesn't experience sexual attraction" but it still counts as a sexual orientation.

Sounds like a huge paradox to me.

here are some interesting articles i found about gender identity throughout history!!

• 10 nonbinary genders throughout history
• gender diversity throughout cultures
• gender variance around the world

there are way more but it's 2am and you can find them through google easy-peasy!! just look up "gender identity throughout history" or "nonbinary genders throughout history".

Sorry but none of those seem that reliable to get valuable information from. And even if we want to take them in consideration, most of the genders I read there are just variations of male and female differing because of culture. Being a man who behaves slightly like a woman doesn't make a third gender, it just means you have a broad personality.

he drew an erotic image of a man and titled it "the incarnate angel". he was also convicted of sodomy (twice, i think). the majority of historians agree that he was either homosexual or possibly asexual. that man wasn't any straighter than i am.

And I drew boobs as a kid, that doesn't mean I'm straight. And yes he was accused of sodomy, but it was never demonstrated. Again there are no proofs, and that majority of historians agree on that is downright false.

don't you think it's weird that we all have to accept "male" and "female" genders exist but i have to pull sources and articles out of my ass just to prove that my gender exists? just because it's not considered a norm in western society yet? and we are getting there with getting gender identities accepted too. you can apply to be legally recognised as an "other" gender in some places.

No i think it is fairly normal, considering that male and female have always existed, since they originate from biology. there are social behaviors we have that many mammals also have, despite not knowing the concept of gender. On the other hand I've never seen a genderfluid cat.
So yeah I think it's pretty significative that you have to pull articles written by sjw-y people to prove the existence of your gender, while the existence of male and female genders has been all around us for ages.

 

[myfanwy]

i was making a point about how science has progressed regarding biological sex and gender identity. whereas intersex people weren't regarded as their own sex before, they are now because of how society and human knowledge of anatomy has progressed. the same thing can be applied to gender identity- we know more about these things now and can therefore think about them in a more liberal sense instead of a traditional sense.

also intersex people prove to an extent that gender is a social construct.

traditionally, you are assigned the gender that matches your sex at birth. if your biological sex is female, they slap female as your gender and vice versa. but if you are intersex, your sex doesn't match a traditional gender. "male" or "female" is assigned to you regardless. despite intersex people not meeting the "criteria" when it comes to being assigned a gender, they are assigned one anyway. i think intersex people prove how desperate society can be to put everybody in a box or under a label.

those are simply my thoughts on the matter however. i cannot speak for intersex people because i am not one.


i think it's a case by case basis thing as to whether an agender/genderless person considers themselves on the gender spectrum. generally i would count it as being on the gender spectrum, despite it meaning genderless because it IS still a gender identity to some extent.

like how asexual means "doesn't experience sexual attraction" but it still counts as a sexual orientation.

that sounds like a case-by-case basis, depending on how define the gender spectrum. personally i would consider having no gender to be on one end of the spectrum and having multiple genders to be on the other end but that's just my view.


here are some interesting articles i found about gender identity throughout history!!

• 10 nonbinary genders throughout history
• gender diversity throughout cultures
• gender variance around the world

there are way more but it's 2am and you can find them through google easy-peasy!! just look up "gender identity throughout history" or "nonbinary genders throughout history".

he drew an erotic image of a man and titled it "the incarnate angel". he was also convicted of sodomy (twice, i think). the majority of historians agree that he was either homosexual or possibly asexual. that man wasn't any straighter than i am.


i don't like the word "condition" because it implies that identifying outside of the gender binary is some kind of affliction or disorder, which isn't true at all. if we're talking scientifically, there's no real way to measure "male" or "female" genders either. they're just something that's accepted in western culture and you don't have to "prove" they exist.

don't you think it's weird that we all have to accept "male" and "female" genders exist but i have to pull sources and articles out of my ass just to prove that my gender exists? just because it's not considered a norm in western society yet? and we are getting there with getting gender identities accepted too. you can apply to be legally recognised as an "other" gender in some places.

keep in mind i'm tired so it might not make sense or seem asshole-ish

anthropologically speaking, there are two biological sexes and multiple gender expressions. you can be non binary as an expression, however, you still have the potential to fall victim to sex related diseases (prostate/breast cancer). as english speakers, we use the word gender as a replacement for sex, often confusing the two and you get the confusion of "only boy and girl genders".

i have to disagree with what you said about this being an entirely western idea as my bosses from korea and my coworkers from the philippines often treat the stereotypical gender expressions for makes and females as the norm. they often make "sexist" remarks because that's the way they were raised within their cultures. they think trans females are gay men and vice versa, hell, he thought i was a lesbian because I don't show interest in dating anyone.

as a society, all the new gender expressions that are practically unheard of bc they were hidden for so long shock people because it does go against the norm for society, and the older generation especially has trouble with it because they're set in their ways. it's difficult to change the way you've been thinking for sixty+ years.

the main issue i've seen for all the new expressions is that some people do take it too far to seem special, just like the people who say they have fifty mental disorders to gain sympathy. these people also seem to shove their ideals down people's throats and attack them for having a different view of things.

Edit: i forgot about hermaphrodites oops. but even then that one is tricky

 

[Lance Von Alden]

just because it's not considered a norm in western society yet?

I wanted to make a pointer on this precise point before I make my own opinion. Search the internet and learn a bit about Sex/Gender Identification in Society and you'll learn that Western society is actually one of the societies as a whole (including all America as a continent, Central, South and North) that has opened the most to sexual and gender identification beyond the binary. In fact Asian cultures are really sexist, so much they actually seem very old in their ways. In job areas and home economics for example, having a female as a high ranked staff person in a company for example is very frowned upon in Japanese culture. The closest to be open to sexual identification is Japan which seemingly is ok with LGBT orientations as far as I have heard, but I might be wrong on that.

Then there is the gender is a spectrum part, and your said that people fall on a set point in the spectrum. I actually agree with that. But then you mentioned agenders, how can one fall in the spectrum and be off the spectrum at the same time?

i think it's a case by case basis thing as to whether an agender/genderless person considers themselves on the gender spectrum. generally i would count it as being on the gender spectrum, despite it meaning genderless because it IS still a gender identity to some extent.

like how asexual means "doesn't experience sexual attraction" but it still counts as a sexual orientation.

that sounds like a case-by-case basis, depending on how define the gender spectrum. personally i would consider having no gender to be on one end of the spectrum and having multiple genders to be on the other end but that's just my view.

This here is quite a big paradox and long discussion but here is how I see it. Asexual people are accepted as a sexual orientation because sexual orientation is kind of a non-measurable abstract concept that related to a person that feels attraction to a certain group. In fact sexual orientation is a really big list in the spectrum cause here we don't fall under just male or female attraction, but many many many other types (weird and anomalies, but attraction nevertheless). So feeling no sexual attraction is possible, which I don't support cause I don't feel people do not feel sexual attraction at all, but as much as I accept imaginary numbers as a possibility and perfect 0 is accepted, this is a possibility too. But gender is another story.

Gender in biology is not binary, take that off your silly heads, was never. Gender in biology is actually very open and prone to confusion, why you say? Cause gender is defined the two chromosomes of a person and even other living creatures. So yeah there exist XX-Female and XY-Male, so much as there exist X, Y, XXY, XXX, XYY and I think I have read of XXXX and YYY (which are so rare that I can be wrong), and no, those are not considered Males or Females. There is also the existence in nature of perfectly capable hermaphrodites, with both sexual organs able to be used and working, even in humans, and even when the actual society tends to pick a gender for em to go by as they grow, is very silly to consider them being of one gender Male or Female or say they are both just cause they have both organs. Biology is more open than any social concept, remember, is not only Male or Female, the spectrum is as big as chromosome combinations are there, not only sexual pairs. And no, no agenders exist so far in biology and will not, cause the moment one with no sexual chromosomes come, they will simply be another gender themselves.

As to social gender, ambiguity is prone to come. I have never supported the existence of the binary genders in society cause is thanks to it that people think Male have a certain behavior and Females another, Men from Mars, Women from Venus, blablabla. Genders in society actually is as open as Genders in any sort of group, like movies or games. The reason for that is that Gender identification is simply what group you feel something (or someone) belongs to. So the binary protocol has always been stupid for Gender identification in humans, if we talk about Male or Female, that's biology. If we are talking as to what social group you belong to, you don't have to be Male or Female, you are what you belong to. As my cute underling says Project Naiad , if you feel like an squirrel then you are from the group Squirrels, whatever, the spectrum here is very wide, and is silly to compare this to Biology Genders. But yes, you can say you are Male or Female to society, because you feel identified by members of said gender and even say you are Genderfluid cause you wanna feel like one one day and then another. Agender though is very silly and pardon, this is no flaming, but every person belong to a social group, you can't simply be genderless, even being a vegetable, you are a vegetable. If you feel like you don't belong to Males or Females social group, there has to be a social group you do belong to, any, Loners, Talkers, Observers, anything. So yeah what I am saying here is that Gender Identification in Society is not and will never be related to only Females or Males or Female/Male/Trans/Intersex because that is not social groups, but gender physical identifications, nothing related to social groups but to how you wanna look physically with a gender approach.

And if you are asking, no, in gender physical identification, agenders do not exist either cause even if you managed to take out all the sexual organs from you you would then fall on a new gender yourself, whatever the name it has.

Conclusion:
Genders in Biology? Non-binary and wide as hell. Agenders are not possible.
Genders in Society? Definitely non-binary and also more open than just Male/Female. Agenders non-existent.
Physical Genders? Can contain many groups but not Agenders.

 

[Lord Bradorian]

Two. The rest are personalities confused with being genders.

 

[Project Naiad]

Lance Von Alden
Aw look at you speaking all specific. Anyways I'm pretty sure you misunderstood my stand.

Biology is more open than any social concept, remember, is not only Male or Female, the spectrum is as big as chromosome combinations are there, not only sexual pairs.

Yes people with different chromosome combinations do exist, but are anomalies, just like intersex people. If you were studying snakes would you take in consideration the one with two heads? Probably in a side study, but not put together with the rest if the other snakes. Proof of this is the fact that many time these people are infertile.

Conclusion:
Genders in Biology? Non-binary and wide as hell. Agenders are not possible.
Genders in Society? Definitely non-binary and also more open than just Male/Female. Agenders non-existent.
Physical Genders? Can contain many groups but not Agenders.

So yeah gender in biology IS a binary, and the fact that there can be aberrations doesn't change this fact. All we have to do is look at the other animals like us around us. Have you ever seen a monkey that changes gender from one day to the other? I doubt it. Have you ever seen a monkey in homosexual behavior? Prolly not (and if you have you should be ashamed you voyeur), but they exist.
As for gender in society, I personally believe that it is closely related to gender in biology, and therefore is also a binary.
And yes I said that one can identify themselves as anything they want, I have no problems with that. However just because you believe something it doesn't make it true. My problem arises when non binary people demand attention and recognition from the rest of society without providing any substantial proof of the existence of their gender.

 

[Captain Gabriel]

I personally believe that science is the answer to everything. What cannot be answered by science NOW will be answered by science in the future.
It's irrational to replace basic biology with fake terms because it violates someone's sense of self. Just because someone says they're transgender doesn't mean they have three chromosomes.
And as Han Solo once said,

THAT'S NOT HOW SCIENCE WORKS! Han Solo

 

[Birdsie]

Me:

 

[Project Naiad]

Me:

I'll admit that a tiny tiny part of me was indeed hoping to raise some drama.
Ohgodimaterribleperson.jpg

 

[Birdsie]

I'll admit that a tiny tiny part of me was indeed hoping to raise some drama.
Ohgodimaterribleperson.jpg

 

[Rock And Roll Boy]

*Leaves a box of kitties here*

 

[Iskandar]

*Leaves a box of kitties here*

*Burns box of kittens*

Honestly I am surprised the thread has not devolved into the utter SJW v Conservative Snowflake hell that it should.

I commend most of the people here for being civil. Anyway Imma keep checking this thread to see what someone says about genders or if someone causes drama Project Naiad

Also, want me to bring some soda for your popcorn Birdsie

 

[Birdsie]

*Burns box of kittens*

Honestly I am surprised the thread has not devolved into the utter SJW v Conservative Snowflake hell that it should.

I commend most of the people here for being civil. Anyway Imma keep checking this thread to see what someone says about genders or if someone causes drama Project Naiad

Also, want me to bring some soda for your popcorn Birdsie

Yes, please! Thank you very much, sir.
I assumed your gender... well, not really, it says on your profile.

 

[Iskandar]

Yes, please! Thank you very much, sir.
I assumed your gender... well, not really, it says on your profile.

HOW DARE YOU. Jk jk.

 

[Project Naiad]

*Burns box of kittens*

Honestly I am surprised the thread has not devolved into the utter SJW v Conservative Snowflake hell that it should.

I commend most of the people here for being civil. Anyway Imma keep checking this thread to see what someone says about genders or if someone causes drama Project Naiad

Also, want me to bring some soda for your popcorn Birdsie

It was a very tiny part of me (sorta). I've been trying to keep the thread nice and civil, as I stated in my OP.

 

[Iskandar]

It was a very tiny part of me (sorta). I've been trying to keep the thread nice and civil, as I stated in my OP.

That is good. Wouldn't want your thread to be locked. Granted I have skimmed some of the more recent posts mostly cause too lazy and don't want to get a headache from reading so much um... opinions.

 

[Captain Gabriel]

And in all this you didn't give a shit about what I posted...


I feel ignored.

 

[Iskandar]

Well... I just kinda think your post was kind of redundant? Seeing as many others have said the same thing. Though the Han Solo quote was a nice touch, and you gave your beliefs/reasons unlike a few peeps. I just came on here to see if it devolved into tumblr v 4chan or something Captain Gabriel

 

[Captain Gabriel]

Well... I just kinda think your post was kind of redundant? Seeing as many others have said the same thing. Though the Han Solo quote was a nice touch, and you gave your beliefs/reasons unlike a few peeps. I just came on here to see if it devolved into tumblr v 4chan or something Captain Gabriel

I think that was the objective of the post maker. Lmao.
At first, I wanted to make a very angry post about how the whole non-binary-gender thing is just a group of insecure people inventing new "genders" to feel less insecure about their sexuality.

 

[Rock And Roll Boy]

*Extinguishes the flames and runs off with my unharmed kitty cats*

 

[Sunbather]

Three.

Male, female, and the rare but absolutely real intersex folks. Everything else isn't really a gender in itself. Transmale isn't a gender. Being transgender is being a male, who transitioned into being male from female. Agender isn't a gender, it's the absence of gender identity (kinda like how Atheism isn't a religion, it's the absence of religion).

Genderqueer is a really good and useful catch-all term for those with varying and more complex identities, but that which it encompasses are always variations or mixtures of male and female (or one of the two and being agender), and thus not actual genders. They are states of gender identity. Like non-binary quite literally means not the binary options, which are fully and thoroughly male and fully and thoroughly female. And non-binary folks are obviously real. But it's still a mixture of male and female. Or, again, one of the two and then agender.

Honestly, the mere implication that expression of gender through clothes or other social norms determines the degree of your identity is, unless it's a pure personal preference that happens to align, pretty much sexist in itself. And the implication that being trans is such a distinct and stand-alone version kind of fuels that sort of internalized transphobia that is so prevalent in our society. Of course it's a very significant part of that person's life--and likely their friends and family as well--and it very much is a huge part of your being, but it still means you are whatever you transition into. And us not really seeing it that way, I think, hurts true unity and acceptance throughout society. So I don't like the whole concept of it other than to be accurate with your words in necessary descriptions (such as medical).

 

[Sibelle Grey]

And here I am nearly a year later, wow. I wonder if anyone's perception has changed over this past year.

Basically, the genders are: male (subscribing to characteristics typical of male people) and female (subscribing to characteristics typical of male people). Agender people reject both, and are (disputably) not a gender in and of themselves (rejection of the binary is kind of their whole thing). Transgender people subscribe to either one or the other, just not the one attributed to their sexual characteristics. Nonbinary people exist outside of the gender binary. Genderqueer people are often some part of one or the other, so again, it seems there are only the two genders, then the absence of gender and a mix or spectrum of it.

Sex does not equal gender. Sex is an observable biological reality, and I'd say there are three sexes: male, female, intersex. We tend to confuse the two notions, and that's usually where things go downhill.

Spoiler: We shouldn't impose gender on anyone, I'm intensely critical of it anyway and we should just let people be.

Gender should not exist as a binary and I take such issue with that binary. Hence, this reply. jinkx (hey bud) said a lot of things I agree with. I can't say whether I agree with gender being a "Western" idea because I'm not from the West, in my home country the binary is sacrosanct, but also my home country was colonized so whether we originally believed in the binary and only the binary or whether we have mostly the French to blame for that, too, is something I'm still looking into. But in any case, here's what I do know:

-in at least one culture in the vast and varied continent that is Africa, there were people who did not identify with the characteristics assigned to their sex. You had male people doing "female-gendered" things and being official wives to other men. Not yet sure whether this was widespread in the surrounding area and other cultures, but I don't think it was frowned upon in that given society.

-so from the above, the binary has existed, but it hasn't been tied to sex everywhere since the dawn of time. Hopping across to the other side of the binary is an ancient reality.

-the binary is bullshit and socially constructed from observations of sex-based differences that have been blown way out of proportion to benefit those in social and economic power-- I am gender-critical. Gender is performative. It is made by us and enforced by us, contrarily to sex which is out of our control at birth.

This is not to say that gender "isn't real", because gender roles are real and unfortunate and to deny the existence of gender as a social construct is to deny its harm. Gender, taken as something that relates to sex but is not sex, is a very real social construct with very real consequences.
However, gender is not an attribute set in stone-- that would be sex. And in my opinion, when we begin to define something by a "feeling", by personal analysis that changes with that feeling, we should do away with the binary and its expectations because to me, "feeling like a girl" doesn't mean much of anything outside of what we've made it mean. If a little female human likes trucks and the color blue and has no interest in making herself pretty, she isn't automatically a transboy-- she's a girl who likes trucks. Deviance from one's assigned gender should not have to mean having to adhere entirely to the characteristics of the other side of the binary and would not be an issue if the gender binary didn't exist in the first place. I am, by all definitions, a woman because I have female organs and can, in theory, bear children. The fact that I have no desire to carry babies, none of that "maternal instinct", doesn't make me not a woman. It wouldn't have to mean anything about who I am as a person, my personality, my ambitions, if my society didn't subscribe to a binary with such strict, often paper-thin characteristics. I just really hate the behavioral binary in gender and think it should die ok thanks goodbye

 

[OneTuffPuff]

I am a Cis Bi Female and I personally believe there are 3;

Male (this goes for Cis male and Trans Male)
Female (Cis female and Trans Female)
Non-Binary (questioning, non-conforming, fluid, everything else)

The reason I do not add TransMale and Trans Female to the list is because if I was transgender, I'd much rather be referred to my spiritual (or "correct" or "chosen" or whatever) than constantly bring attention to the fact that I was once a man or woman.

Howeverrrrrr

As a Cisgender individual who has never had any questions about my gender, I have little to NO authority on the topic, therefore, my opinions are largely kept to myself. If I meet someone who identifies as something not on my list and asks me to refer to them as something I have not even heard of, I am more than happy to oblige.
To me, this whole gender issue is nonsensical, let people do what they want as long (as it isn't hurting anyone). I often get mistaken for a boy (I have short hair, an athletic build and androgynous features) but I am not at all offended by it and sometimes even embrace my masculine side. As a Bi woman, I am also attracted to just about anyone as long as they are pleasing to me visually and I like their personality, regardless of gender.
I suppose some might read this and say "NO YOU'RE A PANSEXUAL NONBINARY PERSON" and to that, I'll reply, "I guess".

I'm an advocate for equality and fairness, but I really think this gender and sexuality issue is getting out of hand. When I see someone getting overly offended that you didn't call them by their preferred pronoun, I see someone who has major issues with their self-esteem and identity, as gender and sexuality don't really play a huge part in mine, and I don't really understand why it would play into anyone's identity SO much that they are defined by it instead of, say, their interests and experiences, but I understand my experience is vastly different from other people's, so I remain respectful of everyone and don't push my beliefs.


TL; DR; I think there are 3 Genders, but you have your own opinion, so let's all be nice, ok?