How does one use Socialize effectively?

[GraySky]

I mean, besides being used in stealth for social combat, what out-of social combat applications does it have that aren't better accomplished with just roleplaying?


Also, how do you use Bureaucracy for bribing officials and buying/selling goods? It seems like social combat would be used to resolve those situations, but Bureaucracy has no role in social combat.

 

[Brickwall]

Pretty much all social stuff is accomplished just as well by roleplaying, so you generally only roll if the player asks to roll it because their character is better with this stuff than they are. Bureaucracy is great for organizing and manipulating, well, organizations, but that never comes up.

 

[Flagg]

Bureaucracy is great for organizing and manipulating, well, organizations, but that never comes up.

Unless, you know, it does.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Socialize charms are often handy, in the right situations. Similarly with Bureaucracy. Do you need Socialize or Bureaucracy if you don't intend to go into the situations where these skills are useful? No. But if you do, they are very much so. I know my Fire Aspect in DG's Crearth game is certainly going to be working on both these skills. Why? Because he will need them, as the local warlord, and as he seeks to spread his leadership over larger areas. If you are the sort to lead and more importantly, organize, these skills are both highly useful. Socialize is War for Social Fu. Bureaucracy is necessary is you want to be good at haggling, organizing, and so forth. Both are necessary if you're the sort who intends to engage in nation building. If you aren't? Then...not really anywhere so needed. Then again, Melee is only necessary if you intend to swing things which kill other people at people.

 

[GraySky]

Bureaucracy is necessary is you want to be good at haggling

Okay, that's the thing that I'm really wondering about. Wouldn't haggling fall under social combat, and if not, would you resolve the dispute with an opposed roll or something?

 

[Arthur]

Well, Social Combat is a bit broken.


However, if you really persevere in Socialise, you get to use an Essence 7 charm that turns you into Big Brother. It's in DotFA:Lords.

 

[Lord Kamina]

Social combat has issues but is not itself broken, I'd say.


Now, usually it's better for Social combat to be reserved fore _IMPORTANT_ interactionsand the rest of the time just use opposed rolls (v/s DV) that could be modified by intimacies or motivation.

 

[Kyeudo]

Social combat fails horribly when it comes to Willpower. Combos are supposed to be the height of an Exalt's power, but a Social Combo essentially burns your health to make the other guy maybe lose some health. Something for maybe something just doesn't work out. Then there's initiating social combat right after a fight, somehow making the other guy more vulnerable to persuasion after an epic battle than less, since he probably used Willpower to power his Charms and Combos and has taken some wound penalties.

 

[Brickwall]

Then there's initiating social combat right after a fight, somehow making the other guy more vulnerable to persuasion after an epic battle than less, since he probably used Willpower to power his Charms and Combos and has taken some wound penalties.

Why do you think most side-switching is done during and after fights? Seriously, when is side-switching ever done before a fight in, like, any action-focused media?

 

[Kyeudo]

When do you just get done trashing Darth Vader only to turn around and spontaneously join the Dark Side because the Emperor got lucky on his Presence roll?


If you are going to have social combat, no matter when it happens it should be just as epic as regular combat.

 

[Brickwall]

Episode III. Anakin cuts Dooku's fucking head off when the guy is handless and has shat his pants. Why? Palpatine took advantage of his after-battle rage. If Anakin had just run into Dooku sitting on a park bench, handsless and clean underwearless, and Palpatine told Anakin to behead him, I imagine things would have gone differently.


Luke was smart enough to conserve his resources for the social combat (or just put up a scenelong, since he knew the Emperor would pull that shit. Really, all things considered, it was too easy to anticipate), which is why he then got blasted by lightning and couldn't do anything. Meanwhile, Vader had blown everything on the fight, so Luke's whimpers of "Father, help me" worked.


In conclusion: Star Wars says I'm right.

 

[strawberryleaves]

Social combat has issues but is not itself broken, I'd say.
Now, usually it's better for Social combat to be reserved fore _IMPORTANT_ interactionsand the rest of the time just use opposed rolls (v/s DV) that could be modified by intimacies or motivation.

See, that's the overall problem I have with social combat.


No one ever advocates saving full-scale combat rules for important battles, and using opposed rolls the rest of the time.

 

[Kyeudo]

Do you actually play out the entire combat between a single Extra and a Solar? No. The Solar makes his attack roll and only if the Extra actually survives do you even have to worry about anything else.


Social combat, abstracted the same way, should result in a single roll against some static value.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

If an extra ever survives anything, you worry more about what divinity just caused him to sprout an anima. It works both ways.

 

[RedMantis]

Socialize doesn't come up much in my game because my ST is a combat twink and is never interested when we try to talk our way through things without charms.


Personally I see socialize as way to reflect a character's Manipulation and Charisma attributes when working with a groups of people, as well as understanding group psychology off the battlefield. It's also pretty good for figuring out what kind of lie an npc is likely to believe.


Bureaucracy is good for pwning factions in Creation you don't want to beat down physically. Also it's good for doing anything up in Yu-Shan, illegal or legal.


My Night Caste has a cover identity within the Guild and I arrange all sorts of things with Bureaucracy that would be a major pain for the circle to do ourselves. It isn't very exciting but it sure helps to move things along when I give our ST a list of stuff I'm doing between sessions and then just make the rolls with him before we wrap for the night. Next session the Lunars have some imported monsters to hunt and the Twilight has some nice raw materials to forge into his next artifact without having to muck about in the wyld. Not to mention the Wyld Hunt that's on our trail keeps running out of supplies.


Both of these skills are really only as useful as your Storyteller makes them. You can come up with awesome uses for socialize but if the guy running the game just skips those opportunities for the next Join Battle roll then it's a waste of dots.


Taking the high road as a role player is noble but it's not going to make the game enjoyable.

 

[Lord Kamina]

Social combat has issues but is not itself broken, I'd say.
Now, usually it's better for Social combat to be reserved fore _IMPORTANT_ interactionsand the rest of the time just use opposed rolls (v/s DV) that could be modified by intimacies or motivation.

See, that's the overall problem I have with social combat.


No one ever advocates saving full-scale combat rules for important battles, and using opposed rolls the rest of the time.

Killing someone takes less time than convincing them of something, I'm sure it works that way in real life too.


And really, combat between just a player an just an extra usually lasts no more than 10 ticks.

 

[uteck]

The problem with only rolling your socialize when your character is better then the player, is when the player is better then the character. Then you get the guy with Manipulation 1 and no Socialize talking the Wyld Hunt into letting him pass. Role Playing social stuff can be fun, but sometimes you just have to Roll Play it to make it fair.

 

[RedMantis]

The problem with only rolling your socialize when your character is better then the player, is when the player is better then the character. Then you get the guy with Manipulation 1 and no Socialize talking the Wyld Hunt into letting him pass. Role Playing social stuff can be fun, but sometimes you just have to Roll Play it to make it fair.

I am endlessly passing notes to the smart characters when I play the party brick and get inspired.


The dice are also needed to prove your point when you come up with valid arguments and ST say no because he doesn't like your style. Then again if the ST makes the NPCs belligerent to spite you you probably have more problems than unclear game mechanics.

 

[Kkat]

In regards to the original question:


I've called for Socialize rolls in my game largely for information gathering. Trying to inconspicuously pick up rumors and juicy tidbits at a party or in a bar would be a Perception + Socialize roll, while actively working contacts or trying to chat up townsfolk would be a Charisma + Socialize roll.


When dealing directly with a significant NPC, roleplaying takes over. But canvassing an area for nuggets of info can be glossed over with a Socialize roll.


--Kkat