How do you feel about Novella roleplay?
- Thread starter Dark Half
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rae2nerdy
left site
Crayon got me thinking, I think
Jet
what your problem is isn’t novella posts but purple prose. Wherein people are forced to hit a certain length and thus have to find like seven different adjectives for the color of someone’s eyes.
But that isn’t at all what other people are talking about. This isn’t about forcing anyone beyond their comfort zone or judging people based on how many words they can cram into a post.
People are using word count as a convenient measuring guide not as an indication of quality.
The long length isn’t the goal. Like they aren’t setting out specifically to write X many words per post that just happens to be how long the post is when their done adding the details they want.
And the reason that they translate this into word counts is for standardization. Not everyone has the same understanding of paragraph length or lines (especially since lots of different screen sizes are in play)
Plus as you’ve shown not everyone has a universal understanding of terms like detailed, literate, concise, novella, etc.
But everyone can pop their posts in a word counter and get a number. Which is why it’s the most popular means of measurement.
Jet
what your problem is isn’t novella posts but purple prose. Wherein people are forced to hit a certain length and thus have to find like seven different adjectives for the color of someone’s eyes.But that isn’t at all what other people are talking about. This isn’t about forcing anyone beyond their comfort zone or judging people based on how many words they can cram into a post.
People are using word count as a convenient measuring guide not as an indication of quality.
The long length isn’t the goal. Like they aren’t setting out specifically to write X many words per post that just happens to be how long the post is when their done adding the details they want.
And the reason that they translate this into word counts is for standardization. Not everyone has the same understanding of paragraph length or lines (especially since lots of different screen sizes are in play)
Plus as you’ve shown not everyone has a universal understanding of terms like detailed, literate, concise, novella, etc.
But everyone can pop their posts in a word counter and get a number. Which is why it’s the most popular means of measurement.
Jet
Uncultured
Idea
appreciate the long response but I think we need to agree to disagree on petty much everything. Two things you may want to consider.
1. Start with a length requirement and once people show that they're not vegetables remove it.
2. What you're talking about sounds like a writing exercise. Once you remove creative freedom that's what it becomes. There's no reason you can't use context to decide if posts are acceptable, especially if you trust the writer. If you think a writing minimum is necessary to weed people out in an interest check, then consider using them for a trial time instead of throughout the entire RP.
rae2nerdy
left site
Two things you may want to consider.
1. Start with a length requirement and once people show that they're not vegetables remove it.
2. What you're talking about sounds like a writing exercise. Once you remove creative freedom that's what it becomes. There's no reason you can't use context to decide if posts are acceptable, especially if you trust the writer. If you think a writing minimum is necessary to weed people out in an interest check, then consider using them for a trial time instead of throughout the entire RP.
In fairness post mirroring is a thing. Most people naturally want to match how long the post they responded to is.
So keeping the same “requirement” up throughout a roleplay doesn’t mean you have to force someone at gun point to hit a specific word count.
Most people are going to do that any way as long as your own posts remain more or less the same length.
Trust me as someone who has no post requirement whatsoever beyond “Can I read it?”.
People will still instinctively seek to match the length of my posts anyway.
Jet
Uncultured
T
Tove
that's my only point, all my other arguments are in support of that. If you agree with that then we are on the same page 
rae2nerdy
there's no reason to standardize in a small circle of people. That's just lazy on the part of the GM. We are talking small groups, if you have to cookie cutter <10 people then you're being lazy.
Purple prose.... I usually say flowery bullshit but that's way more cultured, stealing that. And yeah that's my issue, in certain situations a strict post minimum necessitates Purple Prose and/or other "tactics" to fill the page. You can be the GOAT at finding content but at the end of the day, in a rapid scene you're going to look like a clown if you post 1200 words. Also if you don't like writing unrealistic dialogue then good luck. A lot of these "detailed writers" write at a pro level but their characters monologue like it's a Shakespeare. This is something that highly skilled length posters do, not just bums. But what if I want to do conversational dialogue? Like a real person... All the characters in these RPs look plastic, speaking 400 words to each other like debating nobles in the Victorian era. It's ridiculous. On top of that, the more dialogue you pack on the more descriptives you can pack on, along with more gestures, postures and body movements. All told a writer can add 50 words for every 10 a character speaks, (that's not a real stat don't quote me but you get what I mean) . As someone that doesn't write like my characters are ancient Greek philosophers, that's another barrier to entry based on bullshit.
I just want context to be used for the life of me I can't see see how this is an unpopular take in a place with an above average IQ.
rae2nerdy
there's no reason to standardize in a small circle of people. That's just lazy on the part of the GM. We are talking small groups, if you have to cookie cutter <10 people then you're being lazy.Purple prose.... I usually say flowery bullshit but that's way more cultured, stealing that. And yeah that's my issue, in certain situations a strict post minimum necessitates Purple Prose and/or other "tactics" to fill the page. You can be the GOAT at finding content but at the end of the day, in a rapid scene you're going to look like a clown if you post 1200 words. Also if you don't like writing unrealistic dialogue then good luck. A lot of these "detailed writers" write at a pro level but their characters monologue like it's a Shakespeare. This is something that highly skilled length posters do, not just bums. But what if I want to do conversational dialogue? Like a real person... All the characters in these RPs look plastic, speaking 400 words to each other like debating nobles in the Victorian era. It's ridiculous. On top of that, the more dialogue you pack on the more descriptives you can pack on, along with more gestures, postures and body movements. All told a writer can add 50 words for every 10 a character speaks, (that's not a real stat don't quote me but you get what I mean) . As someone that doesn't write like my characters are ancient Greek philosophers, that's another barrier to entry based on bullshit.
I just want context to be used for the life of me I can't see see how this is an unpopular take in a place with an above average IQ.
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That's your only point? Funny and here I was reading your posts as having an elitist attitude toward people that liked different things than you. Okay.T Tove that's my only point, all my other arguments are in support of that. If you agree with that then we are on the same page
Purple prose.... I usually say flowery bullshit but that's way more cultured, stealing that. And yeah that's my issue, the thing is, in certain situations a strict post minimum necessitates Purple Prose and/or other "tactics" to fill the page. You can be the GOAT at finding content but at the end of the day, in a rapid scene you're going to look like a clown if you post 1200 words. Also if you don't like writing unrealistic dialogue then good luck. A lot of these "detailed writers" will write high quality work but their characters monologue like it's a Shakespeare. What if I want to do conversational dialogue? Like a real person... All the characters in these RPs look plastic, speaking 400 words to each other like debating nobles in the Victorian era. It's ridiculous. On top of that, the more dialogue you pack on the more descriptives you can pack on and the more gestures, postures and body movements. All told a writer can add 50 words for every 10 a character speaks. As someone that doesn't write like my characters are ancient Greek philosophers, that's another barrier to entry based on bullshit.
I just want context to be used for the life of me I can't see see how this is an unpopular take in a place with an above average IQ.
Jet
Uncultured
I'm elitist? I'm saying that people should use context and not auto ban people for not hitting a word count. I'm saying with clarity that any writing style can be done well and that we should respect all types of writers without barrier building if the quality and content is there. That's elitist?
Now if you want to call me arrogant, up my own ass, looking down on others, eh I guess you could make a case. Elitist? I'm saying that we should be inclusive and not have barriers to entry.
+1 Grip to you my friend
rae2nerdy
left site
T Tove that's my only point, all my other arguments are in support of that. If you agree with that then we are on the same page
Purple prose.... I usually say flowery bullshit but that's way more cultured, stealing that. And yeah that's my issue, in certain situations a strict post minimum necessitates Purple Prose and/or other "tactics" to fill the page. You can be the GOAT at finding content but at the end of the day, in a rapid scene you're going to look like a clown if you post 1200 words. Also if you don't like writing unrealistic dialogue then good luck. A lot of these "detailed writers" write at a pro level but their characters monologue like it's a Shakespeare. This is something that highly skilled length posters do, not just bums. But what if I want to do conversational dialogue? Like a real person... All the characters in these RPs look plastic, speaking 400 words to each other like debating nobles in the Victorian era. It's ridiculous. On top of that, the more dialogue you pack on the more descriptives you can pack on, along with more gestures, postures and body movements. All told a writer can add 50 words for every 10 a character speaks, (that's not a real stat don't quote me but you get what I mean) . As someone that doesn't write like my characters are ancient Greek philosophers, that's another barrier to entry based on bullshit.
I just want context to be used for the life of me I can't see see how this is an unpopular take in a place with an above average IQ.
Wait did we decide somewhere that we were talking specifically about small groups?
Jet
Uncultured
That's all of RPN down to a 1x1 no? The biggest RP I've ever been in was in the upper teens. That's one reason why I think standardization is anti-logic. We aren't dealing with enough people to need it.
rae2nerdy
left site
I have no idea I don’t do groups.
But my point is more that I think your kind of misunderstanding the point of a word requirement. Or maybe someone explained it poorly to you (this thread is so fast I might be missing some posts).
A word requirement is used in the application process only. Once in a roleplay the GM isn’t setting up a quota that every individual has to meet.
It’s not like the GM is going - “Well Susie only wrote 900 words, looks like she’s out.” “Brad I noticed you have only have 995 words better add in 5 random adjectives to hit that quota young man!” “Ooh guys Jan wrote 2000 words! Snaps for Jan! The rest of you better step up your games. We’re now in the 2000 words per post section of the roleplay.”
Like that is unreasonable. Honestly the GM has way more important things to do than nitpick on word counts for each post.
Instead what their going to look at is content. Is it readable? Is it responding to what’s going on? Is it copying and pasting other people’s posts? Is it breaking the rules?
If someone happens to say write 500 words when everyone around them is writing 1000 words chances are that person will get individual help with their posts. A lot of the groups I was in on another site would have like post beta readers for people that were falling behind or had like grammatical issues or whatever.
Another thing is a lot of people had post sample threads (or linked directly to roleplays they’d been in) so the GM gets a pretty detailed ideas of their posts before their even accepted into the roleplay.
Like you gotta understand a lot of times groups are total strangers who are meeting for the first time in the interest check. So having a strict application process might limit your numbers but it also ensures that everyone is able to enjoy themselves.
And that’s really all the post requirement is, one prong in the application process. Once the roleplay starts post mirroring tends to ensure that people post more or less equal lengths without the GM having to do anything
Jet
Uncultured
I'm debating against strict paragraph minimums, which is apparently a thing in "Novella" style. Write less then six paragraphs and you've gone against the stone tablet!
Not an exact word counter but still, its a quota. The quality control methods you're talking about are fine by me, because they're content and context based, not some water line that a writer needs to fill at the risk of being booted from a RP.
rae2nerdy
left site
And that’s the issue. I don’t think anyone is actually talking about those strict word counts.
What we’re talking about is using an application tool to ensure that your partner/players are all more or less using the same style.
And if they happen to dip in the roleplay it’s usually no big deal as long as it’s not a huge gap continuously.
Like one time posting 500 words when everyone else is posting 1000 is usually not a big deal. The GM/players will just ask if there’s an issue they can help with.
If every post you make is half what everyone else is making though that’s probably going to earn you a boot.
The same way if say everyone is writing multiple paragraphs and all your posts are two lines.
It’s not that the two lines are bad in themselves it’s that they don’t fit into a multi paragraph group.
Jet
Uncultured
You might not want strict minimums but the others I'm debating do. Me and you see eye to eye about this, basically on the same side. I'm crusading against quotas. There's no place for them in a creative environment. Quality control should be done by judging posts based on their content and the context, and that should be done by reading. Timing how long it takes to scroll from the top to the bottom of a post doesn't QA shit.
Overall we are in agreement.
Edit
One thing, just a nitpick. If you're capable of packing equal value into less words you shouldn't be looked at poorly. If the 500 word writer is hyper efficient with zero waste then it's a non issue, it's not even low effort. It's brutal work to craft aerodynamic writing.
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Idea
The Pun Tyrant
Permit to bring this up then: Let's presume, for the sake of argument, that us people with length requirements are correct, and people do not in 99.99% of the situations have the content we want to see in a post without using at least the length of the writing requirement. That being the case, either the person is keeping up with the writing requirement anyway, and thus it's not truly being an imposition, or the person is not delivering the content that is wanted from them. In the first case, the length requirement is not hindering anyone, in the second more than the lack of length, the player is not delivering on the wanted content.
Now, also for the sake of argument, let's remove the innitial assumption, and say a novella player does in fact encounter enough people who can consistently deliver on what they want, without having to meet their usual length requirement. Wouldn't it stand to reason then, that the novella player would simply lower their length requirement? Indeed, this is what happens.
As I've explained, even if there is a one in a million post where you can, in fact, have all of the things I want from a post and still make it smaller than the length requirements, putting up with a barrage of the other cases. It's not that any of those other posts are poorly written necessarily, nor that posts that do give me what I want out of them are all going to be seven star posts, but that I cannot be satisfied with posts that do not have that content. However, the way I see it, making someone have to alter their rules because of an actually arbitrarily set standard- this is, one which is unwritten, just a gut feeling- is downright tyranical. Its setting the rules of the game to one's whim.
So my goal is continuous, but I only have one shot, per RP, at really establishing it. It's not that I think "one size fits all" or that I like imposing restrictions, its that existing alternatives either don't give me what I want, are too impractical to work with, or violate what I consider to be moral and respectful in the treatment of other roleplayers. Length requirements aren't an ideal solution, just the best one we have for the existing problem. Of course, a degree of flexibility is required. If someone doesn't meet the exact writing requirement, but still delivers, then I am generally forgiving of that (which naturally has its limits. If I ask for 15 lines and you deliver me 5, the chances that you are even giving me enough to work are close to 0). I might be zero tolerance in the beginning to make sure people understand I'm serious about wanting that length, but that's about it.
With that said, your solutions to me have the same problem that a writing sample does: It's not representative and does guarantee anything in the future. They tend to be quite inflated compared to the median.
Nonetheless, thank for the proposals. Credit where it is due, I think its nice that you are offering suggestions to our problems, adressing them rather than dismissing them.
rae2nerdy
left site
It’s about content sharing though. It isn’t about people being efficient. It’s about people giving each other equal details to respond to.
That’s how people get those long posts in the first place. By responding to the details in the other players posts and then adding their own action on top of that.
I’m on my phone so I can’t write a long example but to greatly simplify my point.
Ex. Jan smiled at Sally as the two walked through the garden. It was nice to have an ally finally in her new job.
Ex 2. Jan smiled at Sally and the two walked through the garden.
So they both essentially convey the same action. Jan and Sally walking through the garden.
But Example one gives the other players more to respond to as it indicates that Jan is anxious about a new job and her and Sally are close allies against something. So it gives others more info for their own characters to make inferences on and flesh out their own posts.
That is kind of what novella posts are on a much much larger scale. They aren’t meant to be stripped down posts that get the point across efficiently. They’re meant to be posts that have a lot of atmospheric elements that help the other players get a feel for what is going on.
rae2nerdy
left site
Freaking phone.
Okay so to continue on the idea of atmospheric writing is the point of novella roleplays.
Think of it like one-liners vs paragraph posts. Sure you can technically respond to everyone’s post with a single line and then do a second line for your action prompt.
But by doing that your depriving everyone else of the details they use to expand their own posts and it makes it seems like your more interested in your own word count than participating in the roleplay.
It’s the same thing if you write half what everyone else is writing in the roleplay. If everyone else is adding all these details and atmospheric elements and your only focus is how much you can simplify your own posts than you aren’t participating in the spirit of the roleplay. Your putting your own wants/preference above other people’s enjoyment.
Okay so to continue on the idea of atmospheric writing is the point of novella roleplays.
Think of it like one-liners vs paragraph posts. Sure you can technically respond to everyone’s post with a single line and then do a second line for your action prompt.
But by doing that your depriving everyone else of the details they use to expand their own posts and it makes it seems like your more interested in your own word count than participating in the roleplay.
It’s the same thing if you write half what everyone else is writing in the roleplay. If everyone else is adding all these details and atmospheric elements and your only focus is how much you can simplify your own posts than you aren’t participating in the spirit of the roleplay. Your putting your own wants/preference above other people’s enjoyment.
Jet
Uncultured
1. No offense but, hypothetical. Maybe I should write a 1000 word sample. Just word placement and counter-redundancy makes my writing short hand but perhaps I'm an outlier. You're saying "delivering the content that is wanted from them" but the criteria is pixel count between intro and outro. Should it not be content and quality?
2. I don't want lower paragraph requirements, I think the entire concept is ridiculous. Imposing length requirements goes against artistic freedom, it forces awkward posts, and it shits on realistic dialogue writers. I'm not saying that the reqs should be lowered to accommodate, I'm saying that they're dumb.
3. One in a million post? The better a writer is the less words they need. This system punishes good writers. A good writer will need to dredge more content to fill empty space then a bad one because good writers have high efficiency without sacrificing quality. You will think "There's always six paragraphs of content though!" but is there? In rapid fire dialogue? In rapid fire action? Especially if you're a conversational dialog writer this is an unreasonable expectation which is why I'm saying we should judge on quality of writing, weighted content amount and context of the post.
4. Having a mature conversation about quality expectations isn't tyrannical. Forcing people to write six paragraphs interaction posts isn't tyrannical either, it's comical. Sorry, couldn't resist being toxic once in my post
5. You're not stone rigid and for you this is a utilitarian decision based on necessity. Fair enough, I can understand that.
6. Here's my thing about dialogue. Sourced from another post.
Also if you don't like writing unrealistic dialogue then good luck. A lot of these "detailed writers" write at a pro level but their characters monologue like it's a Shakespeare. This is something that highly skilled length posters do, not just bums.But what if I want to do conversational dialogue? Like a real person... All the characters in these RPs look plastic, speaking 400 words to each other like debating nobles in the Victorian era. It's ridiculous.
7. Not from a bad place but this needs to be my last reply, all totalled I've put 2-3 hours in this thread and it's becoming a time sink. Feel free to get the last word, I'll read it but otherwise I'm out.
2. I don't want lower paragraph requirements, I think the entire concept is ridiculous. Imposing length requirements goes against artistic freedom, it forces awkward posts, and it shits on realistic dialogue writers. I'm not saying that the reqs should be lowered to accommodate, I'm saying that they're dumb.
3. One in a million post? The better a writer is the less words they need. This system punishes good writers. A good writer will need to dredge more content to fill empty space then a bad one because good writers have high efficiency without sacrificing quality. You will think "There's always six paragraphs of content though!" but is there? In rapid fire dialogue? In rapid fire action? Especially if you're a conversational dialog writer this is an unreasonable expectation which is why I'm saying we should judge on quality of writing, weighted content amount and context of the post.
4. Having a mature conversation about quality expectations isn't tyrannical. Forcing people to write six paragraphs interaction posts isn't tyrannical either, it's comical. Sorry, couldn't resist being toxic once in my post
5. You're not stone rigid and for you this is a utilitarian decision based on necessity. Fair enough, I can understand that.
6. Here's my thing about dialogue. Sourced from another post.
Also if you don't like writing unrealistic dialogue then good luck. A lot of these "detailed writers" write at a pro level but their characters monologue like it's a Shakespeare. This is something that highly skilled length posters do, not just bums.But what if I want to do conversational dialogue? Like a real person... All the characters in these RPs look plastic, speaking 400 words to each other like debating nobles in the Victorian era. It's ridiculous.
7. Not from a bad place but this needs to be my last reply, all totalled I've put 2-3 hours in this thread and it's becoming a time sink. Feel free to get the last word, I'll read it but otherwise I'm out.
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rae2nerdy
left site
It is content and quality though. You just are not understanding that the length is part of that.
The extra length comes purely by adding MORE content. Not just idle fluffing to hit an arbitrary word count.
The extra length comes purely by adding MORE content. Not just idle fluffing to hit an arbitrary word count.
Jet
Uncultured
A good writer doesn't need to sacrifice detail to write concise. Finding the best way to communicate without wasting a word is difficult but does wonders for quality. In this environment, masters of the craft are punished while meandering writers are celebrated. Doesn't make sense to me.
As said to Idea, this thread has become a time sink and I need to cut it off here. Feel free to get the last word, I'll read whatever you reply with but I'm out. My piece has been said.
rae2nerdy
left site
Then I don’t understand your argument. As people aren’t asking for purple prose fluff. They are literally just asking for details in each post.
The amount of detail added to each post tends to make it long. It’s not that people add detail specifically to hit that word count.
So what your arguing isn’t even the purpose of this thread in the first place. It’s an entire separate issue that you keep confusing with novella posts. Which I think is why your getting frustrated.
No one is saying - I force my partners/players to add meaningless padding purely so they hit this word count.
Everyone is saying - each post has so many details in it that it ends up being this many words. And all I ask is that my partner put an equal amount of details and thus they will probably get similar post lengths.
Jet
Uncultured
Jet
Uncultured
I have issues, can't let this go for some reason. Requiring six paragraphs for character banter or a fight post lol. That forces bloat for length. The cognitive dissonance good lord.
T Tove the discussions with Idea and middleagedgeek are seperate. I broke one vow not two, otherwise you can fuck off with it.
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