How do Fair Folk feed in creation without draining Willpower

[psychoph]

I am wondering if anyone has devised how fair folk who live in creation feed without reducing people's permanent willpower or virtues?  Or is it that they just feed on so many people that they only have to reduce them by 1 dot instead of taking all the dots thus spreading the pain to many over a long period of time?

 

[Flagg]

I think they can also benefit from Manses/Demesnes.


-S

 

[Persell]

They can also carry little trinkets with them - Pennants - which function as Hearthstones, sorta - they allow a Raksha to draw on their home (Freehold, i think) to respire essence. Since all the Raksha really ARE are Essence whorls, that's plenty for them.


Except feeding this way is boring, so they inflict pain and suffering to stay amused. As in Changeling:The Badly Written, boredom is very dangerous to Fae.

 

[psychoph]

Pendeants if I remember correctly just mean that the Fae don't take damage for just being in creation.  


I think it is something else that is more poweful that allows them to regain essence like a Hearthstone from the Freehold.  The only reason i mention this is because a Fae can have pendants from multiple Freeholds that tels them what is going on in the Freehold borders.

 

[Persell]

I know this is an old old thread and an old old discussion, but I need to have a go at it again.


Psycoph's question is very valid because it is hinted at, that Fair Folk have another option than ravishing people. They can also inspire them to act out their Virtues and thus somehow invigorate the Fair Folk without damaging the mortal.


Under the descriptions of the four castes there is a section about FF in Creation. First there is a description of how they can dine on the virtues of mortals and then comes a description of how a ravisher works.


Example from the Warrior caste:

Those who find themselves trapped in Creation feed on others' fear. The gentler method distills the fear from the subtle taste of Valor - the radiance of fear defied, cast off and ignord by gladiators, thugs and heroes. The ravisher's way cuts the bravery from the mortal soul and plunges the victim into trembling, wide-eyed, waking nightmares.

In the end of the character creation chapter, under the spark of life section another paragraph implies a gentler way of feeding:

Feeding: How do you survive amidst the thin Essence of Creation? Are you a prisoner, trapped within the walls of your Freehold? Are you a generous monster, lifting mortals to the height of passion to freed from their drippings? Are you a ravisher, devouring the structure of their souls?...

Any comments, answers?

 

[DarkProphet]

If I remember correctly, and it's definitely possible that I'm not.  One of the 1E books mentions something about that.  It's pre-Fair Folk book so it could be no longer part of the rules... but


The gentler method you mentioned seems to be where the Fair Folk can feed off of ambient emotions around them, as long as said emtions are strong.  The mechanic was, I believe, roll the corresponding virtue of the Fair Folk and you gain that many motes of essence.


So the gentler method might just be that... for valour, when there's a sufficient amount of fear, and the Fair Folk doesn't want to ravage anyone, roll valour and gain as many motes as successes.  


It's been a while since I've read through the 1E books, so I could very well be wrong on this.  It was an alternative to ravaging, although it didn't gain you nearly as much essence.  Although any Fey worth their salt would be able to whip humans up into enough of an emtional frenzy that they could siphon off sufficient essence without having to resort to ravaging.


As for the pennants, I thought they allowed the gaining of essence as well, rather than just allowing fey to simply survive in creation w/o wasting away and giving them knowledge of what's going on in the freehold.  I'd have to look it up in the book to be sure.

 

[Jukashi]

I don't have the Fair folk book, but I know that Half-Fae can inspire people's emotions and regain motes that way, so I'd assume Fae can too.

 

[Sherwood]

A vampire can feed off of a person without killing the target; just by taking two or three blood points at max.  The Fae should be able to do so.  If the Fae is the ruler of a plot of land with followers, s/he would be able to go thru the people in his care slowly, giving them time to fully recover from any ill effects before getting back around to them.  The larger the population, the easier it will be for the Fae.


While traveling, a city would be a buffet of flavors for the cautious diner.  So long as not feeding in excess, a large population will effectively hide them the same way a vampire can hide in modern day Vampire.  You can even extrapolate a similar level of Fae that a city can safely support without discovery of the natives.  In Vampire, I believe that it is 1 vamp for every 100,000 people.  In Creation, life is harsh, and therefore, mortality rates are going to be higher, so more Fae could survive off the same level of population without discovery.

 

[wordman]

Fair Folk are not only unable to regain essence normally in Creation, they actually lose Essence while there. A pennant prevents this loss, but doesn't allow any gain either. A cyst both prevents the loss and allows some regeneration. Both usually come with social obligations.


Fair Folk can feed without ravishing (that is reducing WP or virtues) with a number of other feeding charms, just not as well. Banquet of Crumbs allows feeding off of ambient emotion, and will get the Fair Folk through the day. Onieromantic Something-or-other allows feeding off of dream energy. There are a couple other options.

 

[Persell]

After spending some time going over the Charm section again I have found part of my answer. Problem is: the book is full of contradictions and a lot of vagueness, so it is often a matter of interpretation.


As I see it, feeding without hurting anyone requires Banquet of Crumbs or Heart-Stealing Kiss. Onieromantic Conjuration harvest only gossamer, not Essence from dreams. The first one lets a Raksha roll a feeding grace as a Cup-shaping action and eat 1 mote of essence pr succes. The other lets a raksha feed as per normal, but only gain two motes pr succes and then let the mortal recover his Virtue or WP slowly.


I have decided to houserule my way out of this. I would like it to be possible to every Raksha to chose his feeding freely without having to depend on Charms. So reality shaping, ravishing and inspiring are now innate abilities. Ravishing destroys the virtues or WP of the victim permanently and earnes the Raksha ten motes pr dot destroyed. Inspiration requires the Raksha to put a mortal in a situation, where he has to roll a virtue and for every succes he gets, the Raksha recieves a mote. Banquet of Crumbs raises the outcome to ten motes pr succes. The Charm Ravishing the Created Form should likewise improve feeding, but I haven't decided how yet. Hope anyone could use this and if someone else have created houserules for Fair Folk, I am very interested. This system is desperately in need of logic.

 

[Persell]

And now that I mentioned Ravishing the Created Form: does anyone know how it works?! It is the sentence "and her player rolls a feeding Grace as a Cup-shaping attack," that confuses me. What does this mean, exactly?

 

[wordman]

I would like it to be possible to every Raksha to chose his feeding freely without having to depend on Charms.

Since most raksha gain some of these feeding charms for free (see the Birth background, pg 109), this seems unnecessary to me.

It is the sentence "and her player rolls a feeding Grace as a Cup-shaping attack," that confuses me. What does this mean, exactly?

It means "follow the rules for making a Cup shaping attack (pg. 139) using a feeding grace (pg. 99) score as the base pool." A couple of notes on this:

1. Since this is a cup shaping attack, it can be augmented by any charms that can augment cup-shaping attacks.
   
2. Since this is a cup shaping attack, any cup shaping weapon can be used to make it.
   
3. By default, a raksha's major graces are feeding graces, so common raksha usually have a single feeding grace, nobles usually have two.
   
4. Some charms (e.g. Gaping Virtue Mouth, Iron Nightmare Muzzle, etc.) can change the number of feeding graces you have.

This system is desperately in need of logic.

The system, it turns out, is actually perfectly logical. What it needs is examples. And, of course, it would be nice if it wasn't written from the standpoint of "oh, everyone will just understand what I'm talking about".

 

[Persell]

It is the sentence "and her player rolls a feeding Grace as a Cup-shaping attack," that confuses me. What does this mean, exactly?

It means "follow the rules for making a Cup shaping attack (pg. 139) using a feeding grace (pg. 99) score as the base pool."

Do I understand this correctly then:


The Raksha wants to ravish the Compassion of a farmer from a local village in Creation. He chooses to nock on his door in the guise of a beggar and ask for alms (compassion related), but a single thread of his tunic is made of gold. The farmer doesn't conciously notice the thread, but the mysterious contradiction seeps into his mind and confounds him (a minimalist scene - "simplified worlds, where one or two concepts play out against a blank and empty void"). The Raksha's player rolls conviction + stealth and gets four successes. He then rolls his Valor + four and gets five damage successes. The farmer rolls five soak dice (his Temperance + WP) and gets one success. The Raksha then delivers four damage. The farmer rolls four dice (his WP + Essence) and gets two successes. He is unable to avoid being ravished. He looses his three dots of Compassion and is now unabled to act civilly towards beggars (it could be anything, but the Raksha chooses beggars). The Raksha gains 30 motes of Essence.

This system is desperately in need of logic.

The system, it turns out, is actually perfectly logical. What it needs is examples. And, of course, it would be nice if it wasn't written from the standpoint of "oh, everyone will just understand what I'm talking about".

Fair enough. Though it still confuses me, why so many different stats have to be used.


Conviction as a basis for Cup shaping makes sense as "Conviction controls Compassion" (p. 117). But why Intelligence in Ring Shaping and Manipulation and Dexterity in Staff and Sword? It seems to me that Compassion for Ring shaping, Valor for Staff shaping and Temperance for Sword shaping would make more sense.

 

[Persell]

*bump*


This is an attempt to capture someone's interest in this. I really need help here : )

 

[wordman]

The Raksha's player rolls conviction + stealth

No. As I said before, he uses a feeding grace as the base pool for the cup shaping attack. To change the example a little, let's say the raksha is a Strategos (a noble Worker/Warrior combination). Unless something funky has happened to him, this would mean his feeding graces are Ring and Sword. This means that the raksha can feed on Temperance or Valor.


Now, the charm Ravishing the Created Form says "a raksha touches a consenting Creation-born target, and her player rolls a feeding Grace as a Cup-shaping attack. Instead of the normal damage, this Charm reduces the target's permanent Willpower or the target's relevant Virtue." The phrase "relevant virtue" implies that if the raksha wants to feed on Temperance, he has to feed with his Ring, while if he wants to feed on Valor, he has to feed with his Sword. He could use either to feed on Willpower.


Let's say he wants to feed on Temperance. He "rolls a feeding Grace as a Cup-shaping attack". He does this by looking at the Cup-shaping rules. The text of the charm overrides the part of the standard Cup-shaping attack about where the pool comes from, saying he "rolls a feeding Grace". Therefore, his base pool is equal to the grace he is using to feed, his Ring in this case. Note that this is not a large pool. Since it is Cup-shaping attack, however, he could augment the roll with Cup combat charms and/or Cup-shaping weapons.


My guess is that you will read this and be thinking, "if he is using his Ring and feeding on Temperance, why isn't this a Ring-shaping attack?" To answer this, it is useful to answer your next question as well...

But why Intelligence in Ring Shaping and Manipulation and Dexterity in Staff and Sword? It seems to me that Compassion for Ring shaping, Valor for Staff shaping and Temperance for Sword shaping would make more sense.

Why? Shaping is about manipulating reality within various "spheres", each represented by a Grace. Each of these graces controls a certain type of shaping. Cup is about shaping desire, gratification, addiction and self-control. Ring is about shaping law (both natural and man-made), rules and logic. Staff is about shaping society, custom and obligation. Sword is about shaping physicality and battle. Other graces may exist that control other "spheres" of shaping (e.g. the Way grace mentioned on  page 211 shapes space and location). Note that none of these "spheres" really have anything to do with Virtues, necessarily. Each of them, however, lends themselves to certain skills. In trying to shape law in certain ways, for example, raksha with skill in Bureaucracy will have a huge advantage, and those who are smarter (higher Intelligence) will likely do better than the less intelligent. In other words, the pools used in shaping combat come from the idea that certain Traits would make you better at the type of shaping you are trying to accomplish. This makes perfect sense: just as swinging a sword would use Dextery + Melee, shaping the communication of a village would use Manipulation + Linguistics. So, Conviction is used in Cup-shaping not because of the links between Virtues and Graces, but just because it so happens that it is the most obvious trait for shaping self-control and addiction.


This leads to why feeding on Temperance is a Cup-shaping attack, not a Ring-shaping attack: feeding on someone is a type of shaping that has nothing to do with law (the "sphere" shaped by the Ring). Feeding has to do with desire, gratification, addiction and self-control (the "sphere" shaped by the Cup).


In other words, don't read to much into the connection between Virtues and Graces. In general, Fair Folk care much more about graces. Graces let them shape the world. Virtues are just food.

 

[Persell]

I will meditate upon this before commenting further


All in all it is a great help. Thanks a lot

 

[wordman]

Another way to look at what I said in the latter half of my post above:

• Those who are self-assured (i.e. higher Conviction) are better at Cup shaping.
  
• Those who are smart (i.e. higher Intelligence) are better at Ring shaping.
  
• Those who are devious (i.e. higher Manipulation) are better at Staff shaping.
  
• Those who are agile (i.e. higher Dexterity) are better at Sword shaping.

Other graces would presumably use other traits. The fan-written Mask grace for example, uses the raksha's Style background as its base trait.


Also, I didn't mention before, but the Grace/Virtue link does come into play in resisting shaping. A raksha's damage track against, say, Sword shaping is their own Sword value plus Valor (the virtue that feeds the Sword). This is consistant for all of the graces.


The Grace/Virtue link is also important in Bedlam, when the the raksha gains a curse if a virtue or the grace that controls it hits zero. For example, if Sword or Conviction (the virtue Sword controls) becomes zero, raksha suffer the curse of Namelessness. A nice chart shows this.

 

[Persell]

Another way to look at what I said in the latter half of my post above:

• Those who are self-assured (i.e. higher Conviction) are better at Cup shaping.
  
• Those who are smart (i.e. higher Intelligence) are better at Ring shaping.
  
• Those who are devious (i.e. higher Manipulation) are better at Staff shaping.
  
• Those who are agile (i.e. higher Dexterity) are better at Sword shaping.

But couldn't it just as well look like this:

• Those who are socially adept (i.e. higher Conviction) are better at Cup shaping.
  
• Those who understand desire (i.e. higher Compassion) are better at Ring shaping.
  
• Those who show passion and strength (i.e. higher Valor) are better at Staff shaping.
  
• Those who are driven and posses integrity (i.e. higher Temperance) are better at Sword shaping.

I have taken this directly from the caste descriptions on pp 114 - 121, Controlling Grace. When the Virtues and the Graces have a connection like this it seems strange, that it is not used. While your explanation makes it perfectly clear and, I must admit, logical to use other stats the mechanic still seems a little bit clumsy.


The only reason why my suggestion can't work is the concept of making other Graces tied to other traits (Way and Mask Grace). My suggestion only works with the four Virtue-based Graces defining and controlling each other in a closed system. One house-rule leads to the next, I guess

 

[wordman]

But couldn't it just as well look like this:

Because being socially adept wouldn't really help you at shaping desire or addiction. It would certainly help you shape society, but that is the domain of the Staff, not the Cup.


Because understaning desire has nothing to do with law, which is the domain of the Ring.


Because passion and strength has very little to do with manipulating society.


Because being driven and possesing integrity doesn't have that much to do with manipulating the body and fighting.

When the Virtues and the Graces have a connection like this it seems strange, that it is not used.

As I said before, it is used. Shaping is defended using the virtue/grace connection.


If you want to change it to work that way, go for it, but will likely need to change what domains the various graces control, and you will be making shaping significantly weaker. Mechanically speaking, a raksha who is, say, a master of Staff shaping is likely to have a Manipulation of 7, but his virtues will rarely exceed 4 and never 5.

 

[Persell]

Ok. I see your point. Changing it would make Shaping weaker and unconsistent with the pressence of alternate Graces (Way, Mask etc.). But thanks a lot for the discussion. It helped me a lot toward understanding the mechanics of E:tFF. I'll probably return with more questions or suggestions for discussion later