Hearthstone question

[Galagam]

OK, this is my first post, so don't banish me to the deep wyld.  I have thumbed through all the exalted books that I have and I still cant figure out exactly how hearthstones work.  I do know that they will increase the rate of essence regenerated, can be used for their bonuses to ability and attributes and they can be used to power artifacts.   If a hearthstone is being used to in an artifact that a char is using do you get the other benefits?

 

[memesis]

OK, this is my first post, so don't banish me to the deep wyld.  I have thumbed through all the exalted books that I have and I still cant figure out exactly how hearthstones work.  I do know that they will increase the rate of essence regenerated, can be used for their bonuses to ability and attributes and they can be used to power artifacts.   If a hearthstone is being used to in an artifact that a char is using do you get the other benefits?

This is covered on p. 113 of the second edition core book.


1. You always get (2 x Manse rating) motes back per hour if you are either wearing the Hearthstone or have it set into an artifact you're attuned to.


2. You only get the Hearthstone's special benefit (described for each stone) if it's set into an artifact you're attuned to.


3. Hearthstones powering vehicles and other such things generally DO NOT provide you any benefit - the power of the Manse is going to the vehicle or wonder, not to you.  This is usually spelled out in the description of each vehicle or artifact that requires Hearthstone power sources.

 

[Persell]

2. You only get the Hearthstone's special benefit (described for each stone) if it's set into an artifact you're attuned to.

Not entirely true, if you possess no artifacts you may also gain the benifits of a Hearthstone as long as it in contact with your skin, although this should be limited to grasping it tightly in your hand.

 

[memesis]

Not entirely true, if you possess no artifacts you may also gain the benifits of a Hearthstone as long as it in contact with your skin, although this should be limited to grasping it tightly in your hand.

P. 133:


"A character attuned to a Manse may take the Hearthstone and carry it against his skin, using the jewel as a conduit to the site.  Doing so restore's (the Manse's rating x 2) motes per hour to the character.  If it is socketed in a dedicated artifact made from one or more of the five magical materials, the stone also provides an additional enchantment according to its specific type."


By "dedicated" I'm assuming they mean "attuned/harmonized" as opposed to "dedicated to lugging Hearthstones around".


P. 382:


"Many items made of the five magical materials have sockets in them to permit the mounting of these crystals.  When an Exalt is attuned to a Manse, places that Manse's Hearthstone into an item made with one of the five magical materials and then invests Essence in the item to attune it to himself, the Hearthstone resonates as well.  Such a resonant Hearthstone has a beneficial effect on the Exalt who carries it.  This effect is determined by the architecture of the Manse that produced the stone and the nature of the Demesne that forms the Manse's foundation."


So basically, uh, show me where it says what you say.

 

[Sherwood]

To sum up, if you are attuned to the Manse and have the hearthstone, you gain 2x the level in motes of Essence no matter what you are doing.  Plus, if you have the stone in a setting made of one of the five MM, you also get the magical effect of whatever the stone does for you.  If the stone is being used to power a large artifact such as a Warstrider, you lose the effect of the stone while it is in the artifact because its power is going to run the device.


BTW, welcome to the ECR.  You will never find a greater realm of villany and intrigue than you will here.

 

[Persell]

P. 133:


"A character attuned to a Manse may take the Hearthstone and carry it against his skin, using the jewel as a conduit to the site.  Doing so restore's (the Manse's rating x 2) motes per hour to the character.  If it is socketed in a dedicated artifact made from one or more of the five magical materials, the stone also provides an additional enchantment according to its specific type."


By "dedicated" I'm assuming they mean "attuned/harmonized" as opposed to "dedicated to lugging Hearthstones around".


P. 382:


"Many items made of the five magical materials have sockets in them to permit the mounting of these crystals.  When an Exalt is attuned to a Manse, places that Manse's Hearthstone into an item made with one of the five magical materials and then invests Essence in the item to attune it to himself, the Hearthstone resonates as well.  Such a resonant Hearthstone has a beneficial effect on the Exalt who carries it.  This effect is determined by the architecture of the Manse that produced the stone and the nature of the Demesne that forms the Manse's foundation."


So basically, uh, show me where it says what you say.

Several places through out several stones' description clearly states that a stone must be carried.  An example, the 'Gem of Tears to Poison'.  It states that Exalt must carry the gem.


The problem that arises is the manner in which they use the terms 'bear' and 'carry'.  The core book states that you need an artifact to attune the resonance and the Hearthstone descriptions themselves state that you only need to carry, or bear (meaning 'to hold', or carry) the stone.


In fact every example of Hearthstone clearly defines it, "The bearer of this stone... etc.".  Quite literally it reads whomever is carrying, or holding the stone.


That's the way I've always read it, and will continue to do so.  The benefit of harmonizing a Hearthstone with an artifact is that you no longer have to be grasping the stone in your hand to summon its effect (which can be quite bothersome at times), and you certainly can’t regain essence if it’s sitting your belt pouch (it must make contact with your skin to provide it’s benefits).


As I said I'm well aware of what the core rules state, however the descriptions of the stones contradict themselves with those rules through poor use of wording.  I compromised to avoid confusing my players who all noticed the difference in the core book as well as the wording for the descriptions.


Take it for what you will, I'm not here tell people how to play, or interpret the rules.

 

[memesis]

The problem that arises is the manner in which they use the terms 'bear' and 'carry'.

I think the problem that arises is interpreting the words "bear" or "carry" literally.  Lord of the Rings refers to Frodo as "The Ringbearer", even though he's not clutching the ring in his hands every single step of the journey.  He's the guy with the Ring.  He has it, even if it's not in the most literal English interpretation.


If you read "bearer of this stone" as "guy who has this stone, however he physically happens to lug it around", the rules are still quite consistent - you must lug it around in an artifact to receive the benefits.

That's the way I've always read it, and will continue to do so.

Your version requires that you discard what the core book actually says about gaining a Hearthstone's power.  Which is fine, you're welcome to house-rule this.  Just please don't confuse people who have questions about how Hearthstones work.  "This is my house-rule..." works, whereas "Not entirely true" gives the wrong impression - and you were just telling me about ambiguous rulings...

 

[Persell]

I am behind nemesis on this one and that is the way I have always played it. Hearthstone amuletts were created for a reason.


So, all arguements about words aside (in which memesis is correct, too but anyway):


Why would the exalted designers make a useless artifact with an attunement cost just to get the benefit of a stone when you could also wear that stone without the artifact?

 

[Persell]

I think the problem that arises is interpreting the words "bear" or "carry" literally.  Lord of the Rings refers to Frodo as "The Ringbearer", even though he's not clutching the ring in his hands every single step of the journey.  He's the guy with the Ring.  He has it, even if it's not in the most literal English interpretation.

Yes, I do interpreting the words literally, in the same manner that core book states the rule about using the 5 MM as literally being the only way to access the stones power despite the core saying one thing, and another book defining it differently.  So, who’s right?


Literal adherence to a rule written in black in white, to my knowledge, doesn't make it a house rule.  I follow the game exactly as it's written in this context.


Under the logic provided the stone could not be used while the artifact was in Elsewhere, since the character no longer is the 'bearer' of the stone; it's not in his possession any longer.  Sure he still owns the stone, and is attuned to it but he is no longer 'carrying' it.


Ah well, I withdraw from the conversation.  You are correct I will concede simply because to continue going back and forth like this is pointless.


I apologize for my literal translation of the rules.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

I have to agree with memesis and Safim here. The rules are quite clear that a hearthstone must be socketed to grant any benefit other than mote regeneration. Does the person also have to have the hearthstone on their person? Yes. Thus they are indeed carrying it, and so its bearer.

 

[Trueblood]

I'm going to have to second what Safim said as otherwise why would there have been any need to produce Hearthstone Amulets or Skin Mount Amulets in the first place? Insert in socket, gain additional benefits.