Hardness

[rattleingpython]

My Gm and I are having an issue on the topic of hardness and environmental damage.


I have become confused as to what hardness effects. What types of damage effects does it ignore.

 

[wordman]

One of the only practical real game uses of low Hardness scores (at least as written) is to protect against environmental damage.

 

[Persell]

As long as the environmental effect doesn't state that the damage can't be soaked then you can use hardness.

 

[Virjigorm]

I'd say a good rule of thumb is that if the source of the hardness can soak it, you may apply the hardness. Hardness on armor only applies when the armor's soak applies. Charms which grant natural soak and hardness should apply against any effect soak-able with natural soak.

 

[rattleingpython]

Your responses seem to match my understanding of the situation my Gm feels that hardness is to powerful if it works against envoirmental damage. That it would make artifact armors to valuable against it.


Just a follow up question, is there by chance a quote in the corebook, errata, or in another book in the form of a stealth errata that settles this question or is it use the strictest text interpretation one can find situation.


The specific issue started in a discussion relating to:


Sun Seared flaw at the 3 point level and using iron skin constration to ignore the damage every hour whilist traveling through the desert. The GM feels the fact a 1 dot artifact can negate the damage compeletly is to powerful of an ability and that there is an armor somewhere that give immunity to envoirmental damage but is an artifact 4. That armor being able to was overpowered.

 

[Kyeudo]

my Gm feels that hardness is to powerful if it works against envoirmental damage.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


You're joking, right? Any of the artifact armors listed in the core book are essentially just perfect-quality versions of normal armor with the magical material bonus slapped on. Past the one dot level, they are woefully overcosted.


Further, Hardness itself is largely useless. Being able to ignore minor enviromental damage is one of the few things it's good for.

 

[rattleingpython]

I wish i was joking but im not.


Also in my last post i said iron skin concetration. It should have been Durability of the Oak meditation.

 

[Dracogryff]

My personal opinion is that the Dragonblooded Anima Flux damage is overpowered (Essence dice in lethal EVERY TICK at the highest level) if Hardness doesn't affect environmental damage.


But that's me. >.>;;


In the case presented, however, I would lean more toward agreeing with the ST. Being able to evade a Flaw's issues just by always using a Charm (or wearing Artifact Armor) kind of goes against the fact that it's supposed to be a Flaw.


Sure it eats up motes every hour, but a hearthstone gets around that. Personally, I'd probably allow the Charm or armor to perhaps count as the heavy clothing, so double the time between damage taken. *shrugs*

 

[rattleingpython]

The situation doesn't ignore all of the flaws issues namely the -2 to all dice pools whilst standing in the sun. It just means i can negate the damage. Thats what hardness and resistance charms are their for.


In your hearthstone example if I bought one bonus point worth of background I offset 2/3 the cost to me per hour. (my original plan was to use durability of the oak meditation).


Armor is a better option if it worked costing one background dot to completely negate the effect but artifact armor has disadvantages. The minium cost of this option is one bonus point.


Still leaving the most annoying part of the flaw -2 to all dice pools which to offset would cost 2 bonus point per non-favored ability and 1 bonus point per favored (specialty is the best way to represent this i think).


Okay your last point, dracogryff, doesnt make any since. Just using a charm to negate a flaw of your humanish body. Isnt that exactly what exalts DO!.


O my human body is so frial it cant take another step without food. *uses resistance exelency* I can make it.


Shoot im outnumbered and there coming at me from three sides. *activates shadow over water* its like there is only one.


O the sun slowly kills me when i stand in it. *Durability of the oak meditation* Ahh the sun its comfy.


Why is it the last example so different then the first two my character is just making up for a different flaw with essence.


The reason i think the armor is probably okay even is it only negates part of the issues and its a background.


*sigh* ill stop to me it doesnt seem as much ignoring the flaw as dealing with it. Im sorry im venting a little bit but im not wanting to push the issue with my GM because I like the charecter and I would have taken the disadvantages for no bonus points. He just had someone else start arguing over flaws and I dont want to be the straw that breaks the camels back.


If there's a point where the issue of environmental damage being negated by hardness is actually stated in one of the exalted corebooks point me to it because i would like to see it. Otherwise i'm going to let the issue go and simply ask for a list of things affected by hardness.


Edit: Also the Anima flux is only one dice of damage in the Dragon blooded corebook unless there is an upgrade somewhere.

 

[Dracogryff]

I think I was thinking of Fire Anima banners. Since that's the only DB I've ever played, I'm probably being forgetful. But I don't know. Either way. One die every tick when you only get to attack every four or five ticks adds up to 4 or 5 dice every attack they get with no chance to resist, and that's OP to me unless armor affects environmental damage.


As to the rest of it. I have encountered one too many people who buy flaws with the express intent to get around them however possible, so I'm a bit harsher on such things because I find it irritating and cheap. And considering you get 7 or so free background dots, it could cost nothing to get around such a flaw from bonus points in the end and as such gives you 3 points, for something you get around from basic equipment.


And most people take a hearthstone or artifact armor, or both, even without the flaw involved. So it's not like this is something that is an uncommon workaround.


And if you want me to be completely honest, I probably wouldn't allow a player to take Sun Seared in a game I ran at all. It's too easy to get around most of it, and really, if you want to be an albino or what, just be an albino and RP as if the sun bugs you without the penalties.


But that's from a person who has to deal with players that tend to try to take flaws and then not ever have them affect them negatively because they just want the extra bonus points. Your milage may vary.

 

[wordman]

The specific issue started in a discussion relating to:
Sun Seared flaw at the 3 point level and using iron skin constration to ignore the damage every hour whilist traveling through the desert. The GM feels the fact a 1 dot artifact can negate the damage compeletly is to powerful of an ability and that there is an armor somewhere that give immunity to envoirmental damage but is an artifact 4. That armor being able to was overpowered.

Reading between the lines here, the problem in your game is neither environmental damage nor hardness. It's that one of the players is a twinkie weasel and it's screwing up your game. From what you say, it sounds like someone was like "I'll take this three point flaw, but then cover it with a rules exploit and get three free points. Ha ha!" Thus totally defeating the purpose of even having flaws in the game (hint: flaws are there to make your character more interesting, not exercises in swapping numbers).


My players are more mature than this, but if they weren't my "fix" as GM would be something like the following announcement. "I'm changing the Sun Seared flaw to be unsoakable. If that is a problem for anyone who took it, feel free to either swap in a different three point flaw or drop it and unspend the points it provided." I would lean heavily toward the latter, as it seems like the player can't really be trusted to use flaws.

 

[Gylthinel]

I'd say a good rule of thumb is that if the source of the hardness can soak it, you may apply the hardness. Hardness on armor only applies when the armor's soak applies. Charms which grant natural soak and hardness should apply against any effect soak-able with natural soak.

I agree with this analysis. Applying armor as air-conditioning against environmental damage isn't the right way to make hardness worthwhile, IMO.


"Boy, it's hot... thank goodness I'm wearing this massive suite of heavy metal."

 

[Kyeudo]

In a way, though, Flaws are there for your character to deal with. If you are nearsighted, your Storyteller should expect that you'll get glasses sooner or later and negate most of the flaw. If your character has only one arm, you're going to go for some Prothsethics of Clockwork Elegance or something similar. Flaws are not meant to be seen by your character as something good in most cases.

 

[rattleingpython]

The specific issue started in a discussion relating to:
Sun Seared flaw at the 3 point level and using iron skin constration to ignore the damage every hour whilist traveling through the desert. The GM feels the fact a 1 dot artifact can negate the damage compeletly is to powerful of an ability and that there is an armor somewhere that give immunity to environmental damage but is an artifact 4. That armor being able to was overpowered.

Reading between the lines here, the problem in your game is neither environmental damage nor hardness. It's that one of the players is a twinkie weasel and it's screwing up your game. From what you say, it sounds like someone was like "I'll take this three point flaw, but then cover it with a rules exploit and get three free points. Ha ha!" Thus totally defeating the purpose of even having flaws in the game (hint: flaws are there to make your character more interesting, not exercises in swapping numbers).

Firstly, im actually the player in this case and i typed the wrong charm in my first messege it was supposed to be durability of the oak meditation.


Secound, I really dont see the rules exploits issues on this one. Id agree with you if I had done the most obvious trick. Buy up so i have the survial charm that makes the solar immune to envoirmental damage and then taken the six point flaw. The charecters backstory is that he is a Dune person exalted as a solar. I felt that having him die so quickly in the sun as a solar didnt make so much sense so I changed the flaw to the three point version. The charecter has a total of 12 points of flaws and im taking 10 extra bonus points out of it. Solars resistance charms negate damage so why is it a rules twink to use them for there purpose.


I want to understand the ruiling and what hardness works and doesnt work for.

 

[Persell]

Hardness applies to anything that it's source's soak applies to. Environmental effects only allow natural soak, so only natural (or charm based) hardness would apply.


Using Survival charms to negate a character weakness isn't really an exploit as you have to keep the motes committed to keep the charm up. Presuming you took Eternal Elemental Harmony, that's 5m your out whenever it's sunny.

 

[Virjigorm]

The big question I have here is this: who let a SOLAR take the SUN SEARED flaw in the first place?! If someone tried to pull crap like that in my game, I'd give them the damage and penalties whenever their anima is active.


That aside, if the effects can be negated by going indoors, or wearing a heavy cloak, just do that. If the heat of the desert makes you uncomfortable while wearing a heavy cloak, use resistance charms to negate the heat. The negative effects of the flaw seem primarily metaphysical to me, so I don't think they should count as environmental damage. The ire of the Unconquered Sun is not something to be shrugged off. If stifling heat is the environmental effect, charms can take care of that, but nobody is hurt by standing in pleasant sunshine for a few minutes, so I wouldn't consider it a valid damage source for the charm to negate.

 

[Persell]

All Dune People have Sun-Seared as a racial trait. IIRC.

 

[Kyeudo]

Yep, they have Sun-Seared at the 6 point level.

 

[Haku1]

Personally, I feel that the default artifact armors are undercost (past a certain point).


Also, hardness from an artifact armor wouldn't be able to help you resist the damage from the sun. Any damage equal to and below your hardness, be it environmental anima flux or even damage from an attack, yes. But not damage from the sun (or any such sources) showing you his displeasure or the fact that you're a dune person whose ancestors had been bio-engineered to BURN in sunlight.


ie, you could get artifact armor or sufficient clothing/wrapping that cover you head to toe so that your actual body isn't exposed to the sun. But which means you'd be eating heat exhaustion in the form of fatigue.


Don't like that? Don't play a Dune person or get LOTS of cover from the sun.

 

[0m3g413]

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