guard action with a counter attack charm

[Malekith]

Just wondering, can you use a guard action with a counter attack charm?


So speed 3 action, reflexive charm?


Thoughts?

 

[memesis]

Perfectly legal and reasonable.


Why do you ask?

 

[Malekith]

Well, my circle and I have a HUGE battle coming up and I am trying to think of strategies for my MArtist to use =)


We had fought someone a while ago and he handed us our butt, and barely escaped. We are pretty sure we will have to fight him over calibration and we have a few days game time to come up with some strategies. And of course, speed is always important, and timing of attacks, unless you want to go bonzo on the combos.


I dont think I will have alot of will to start with because i plan to start with  long charms, and Invulnerable Skin, so I will need to stunt myself some will.


so I will need to stunt my butt off =)


I have heavily invested in the art of forceful declaration, and have both counter attacks. I have a smattering of Seven Dancing thunders style, a player made MA my GM found on the wiki sight and approved,up to the form charm,


For defense i have resistance up to Iron kettle body

Perfectly legal and reasonable.
Why do you ask?

 

[Vanman]

Here's a related question - can you use counterattack with an Aim action? I don't see why not, but I'd like to hear other thoughts.....

 

[memesis]

Here's a related question - can you use counterattack with an Aim action? I don't see why not, but I'd like to hear other thoughts.....

Reflexive Counterattack Charms can be used while performing any action, at any time.  If Aim says that it breaks if you do anything else, then no.  Otherwise I don't see why not.

 

[Vanman]

Well, that's the thing with Aim actions - you can abort an Aim action at any time to attack the person you're aiming at. So I think using a counterattack charm against someone you've been aiming at will give you any aim bonuses you've accrued through aiming. If someone other than the target you've been aiming at attacks, you could use the counterattack charm but I'd rule you wouldn't get the aim bonus.


I suppose my question is whether you'd get the Aim bonus if the target you were aiming at attacked before you and then you used a counterattack charm. Would this gain the additional dice? Again, I'd say yes, but others might think differently and I'd like to hear their opinions.

 

[Persell]

I'd say you get the same dice you'd get if you aborted the aim action early, which is normally one less than the number of dice you've accrued.

 

[Vanman]

I'd say you get the same dice you'd get if you aborted the aim action early' date=' which is normally one less than the number of dice you've accrued.[/quote']
I don't think that's right. You get one die for every tick that you aim. If you abort, you keep the dice you've accrued to that point. I don't believe you lose anything, though.

 

[The Matt]

The counterattack would work normally, then you would still be aiming at the aim target. If you were aiming at the same person who attacked you I'd say that it still didn't count as your aim. The magic of the charm would guide you through the counterattack and leave you aiming as you were. You could then attack them with that aim.


The thing to bear in mind is what weapons you have ready - If you were aiming with a bow I don't think you have a melee weapon ready to counterattack, but I'd certainly allow a barehanded (or footed) counterattack while you have a bow ready. 'Course stunts would help here too, like if say you'd thrust your sword into the ground right in front of you before you picked up the bow to begin with.


My 2 cents.

 

[Persell]

I'd say you get the same dice you'd get if you aborted the aim action early' date=' which is normally one less than the number of dice you've accrued.[/quote']
I don't think that's right. You get one die for every tick that you aim. If you abort, you keep the dice you've accrued to that point. I don't believe you lose anything, though.

Oops, you're right. Somehow the -2 internal penalty aborting for a non-attack gives you morphed in my mind to a lost die. Probably another game system sending a sneak attack in their ongoing war for supremacy inside my brain.

 

[Flyck]

Oops, you're right. Somehow the -2 internal penalty aborting for a non-attack gives you morphed in my mind to a lost die. Probably another game system sending a sneak attack in their ongoing war for supremacy inside my brain.

Ahh...  but have you named the wars yet?

 

[Persell]

I am a gracious overfiend. I allow the victors to name their wars.

 

[Flyck]

Bah, you still have too strong of a grasp on sanity.

 

[Vanman]

The counterattack would work normally' date=' then you would still be aiming at the aim target. If you were aiming at the same person who attacked you I'd say that it still didn't count as your aim. The magic of the charm would guide you through the counterattack and leave you aiming as you were. You could then attack them with that aim.[/quote']
The description for the Aim action says that you are looking for chinks or openings to take advantage of when you make your attack. So if the person you were aiming at attacked you, I don't see why you couldn't use any dice you accrued in the counter attack. You've identified the chinks, so to speak. So why can't you take advantage of it in the counterattack?

The thing to bear in mind is what weapons you have ready - If you were aiming with a bow I don't think you have a melee weapon ready to counterattack' date=' but I'd certainly allow a barehanded (or footed) counterattack while you have a bow ready. 'Course stunts would help here too, like if say you'd thrust your sword into the ground right in front of you before you picked up the bow to begin with.[/quote']
The Aim action can be taken with any attack and with any weapon. It's not relegated to ranged weapons. So if you're aiming with your sword, someone attacks you and you have a counterattack charm available, it all comes together. I do agree that you can't attack with a weapon you don't have ready. That is just common sense. But I guess my point is you can use the weapon you're aiming with in a counterattack......

 

[The Matt]

Yes, I was only pointing out a possible issue - you can certainly aim with a sword.


Yes, you could use your aim in the counter attack. I should have said that. But I don't think you have to.


Counter and then hit them with the aim for 2 attacks. it's cool.


If you do use the aim on the counter though, what's your speed? You are no longer aiming, but counter attacks are special exceptions that let you go outside of your normal turn. If you act next after the speed of the counter (the speed it would have been if it were a normal attack) then you've just wasted that many ticks for 3 dice of aiming, when you could have countered normally and then used your aimed attack.


On second thought, I think the rules support aiming as a counter or pre attack and don't work well when combined with actual counter attacks.

 

[Persell]

Meh, 14 replies and nobody bothered to read the rules.


Thesis: A counterattack can benefit from aim actions.


Requirement: A counterattack has to be an attack, because only attacks can benefit from aim actions.


Rules for counterattacks are on page 150 and 183 of the core rulebook.


- They say, counterattacks are "something extra" (page 183).


- They also work outside the usual order of attacks and they have no attack resolution chart of their own, this can be clearly seen as counterattacks cannot be countered by other counterattacks and the wording on page 150 indicates this further.


- They are specifically only granted by magic and nobody can access them by "natural means" which also indicates that they are no attacks


Conclusion: Counterattacks are no attacks, ergo they cannot benefit the aim action.


Now why is this so? Because it is incredibly lame. Counterattacks are mighty strong the way they are already, if you allow counterattacks to happen that way soon everyone will only aim and wait to lay the pwnage as soon as the other guy moves. Which is hideously boring.

 

[Persell]

rules stuff

But does the counter-attack interrupt the aim action? Seems almost stronger this way if it doesn't.
You take aim, waiting to see an opening in the opponent's defense. Opponent sees you aiming and thinks to himself, "Aw, fuck no!" and tries to attack you. You bust out with the counter-attack, whapping the guy for his cheek, trying to interrupt your carefully planned ass-whooping. When your tick rolls around you attack with aim bonuses, after having just unleashed on him with your counterattack. Two attacks in the span of what? Maybe 3 ticks, maybe less? Ouch....

 

[The Matt]

I don't see it being much of a problem if someone is statted out to deal you lot's of damage once you attack them. You can build a PC who doesn't have to wait to deal a lot of dmg or hit with lots of attacks, so why is this so lame, or boring?

 

[Persell]

I think Safim is basically alluding to the bad ol'days of 1E, when everyone in combat would just hold there actions until basically everyone acted on or around initiative 1. Bo-ring, especially if you're the ST.

 

[The Matt]

Oh yeah...

 

[Haku1]

rules stuff

But does the counter-attack interrupt the aim action? Seems almost stronger this way if it doesn't.
You take aim, waiting to see an opening in the opponent's defense. Opponent sees you aiming and thinks to himself, "Aw, fuck no!" and tries to attack you. You bust out with the counter-attack, whapping the guy for his cheek, trying to interrupt your carefully planned ass-whooping. When your tick rolls around you attack with aim bonuses, after having just unleashed on him with your counterattack. Two attacks in the span of what? Maybe 3 ticks, maybe less? Ouch....

Dude... the aim would only give you additional die for your attack, nothing more. Counterattack charms would always be there. It's the favorite toy of turtles.


You can exceed what aim gives you with excellencies. Althou, I suppose in this regard, Dragonblooded have it good. They can just bust out the reflexive charms for 'free*' without need of combos.


*mote cost not included

 

[Persell]

@Haku  I understand that only the attack would get the Aim bonus, that wasn't what I asked. I asked if responding to an attack with a counterattack charm would interrupt the Aim action, thereby forfeiting the bonus dice to your attack on the tick when you would have normally attacked.

 

[Haku1]

@Haku  I understand that only the attack would get the Aim bonus' date=' that wasn't what I asked. I asked if responding to an attack with a counterattack charm would interrupt the Aim action, thereby forfeiting the bonus dice to your attack [i']on the tick when you would have normally attacked[/i].

I would say it shouldn't interrupt the aim... it's what? 1 to 3 die? Are they ABSOLUTELY going to be that bad? Out of how many die? Bearing in mind that the PC will have refreshed his diepools and charm capabilities?

 

[Persell]

Depends, sometimes the 3-die bonus is the difference between pinging off the DV or getting through it, especially at lower experience levels.

 

[Haku1]

acht, that is true. The question is... do you want to allow it or not. If yes, say yes, if no, say no.