GSPs vs Deathknights

[Melissia]

So... the situation is basically as follows, from my interpretation...


Green Sun Princes:


They're Exalted by the Yozis, remnants of the Primordials that have spent uncounted years scheming revenge, and yet the controls over the GSPs are... lacking. Nonexistent even in some regards. Not only is it insanely easy for a GSP to rebel, they have far more to gain from rebelling than serving, eventually even becoming their own primordial in the form of Devil Tigers.


Deathknights:


They're Exalted by the Neverborn, insane, gibbering dead primordials that can only rarely put forth a rational thought between them, and spend most of their time screaming and whispering madness as they try to edge creation closer to oblivion. And yet somehow, these insane, gibbering corpses of dead worlds are capable of far more competently controlling their Exalted-- the Abyssals are held on to with shackles almost impossible to break, and there's very little reward for rebelling in the first place, the best one can hope for is becoming a Solar through Redemption or dying and having your exalt return to the lethe, as any other form of rebellion will always leave you shackled.


This somehow... feels like it should be reversed. That the Deathknights should be given more freedom but also less room to grow, while the GSPs are more tightly controlled but also have great rewards if they manage to break free. Or maybe I have an odd view of things... what's your opinions? I have no idea how either of these will change in the upcoming new edition, so I'm just talking about 2.5.

 

[KG-Motte]

well as I understand it the Yozi don't really need shackles on their GSPs, part of the process of their Exaltation is to Utterly mutate and change the body, mind and even the very soul of the Person being exalted... Why bother Finding a way to chain up the awesomeness of the exaltation to force him do what you want, when you can just change his personality to WANT to help you as much as he can, and just install an inbuilt "rolled up news paper" (In the form of an Urge) in case he does something bad? and on top of that make Sure they are treated like Royalty in their perfect gilded kennels, so long as they remain good little doggies... and for replacing them that is really just an "in case I die, I'll be reborn in that body"...

 

[Seeker of the End]

Canonically, the reason why GSP's don't have a stronger leash on them is two-fold:


1) The Ebon Dragon was in charge of the plan. Enough said.


2) Ebby was afraid that if they chained the GSP's up too tightly Sol could potentially order the Yozi's to tell them to surrender and Yozis would be forced to comply according to their surrender oaths. Sol would have to word the command very specifically, but it could still happen. The Neverborn aren't bound under such heavy chains, hence they can do whatever they like to the Abyssals.

 

[sareteni]

I actually wish the Abyssals were actually -DEAD-. As in, not had a close brush with death, but kicked the bucket, passed on, and were drug back. Holding themselves together would be a much more active effort of will, and the various parts of their soul would would be at odds with each other. That would also separate their goals and motivations from solars and gsps.

 

[The Dark Wizard]

I actually wish the Abyssals were actually -DEAD-. As in, not had a close brush with death, but kicked the bucket, passed on, and were drug back. Holding themselves together would be a much more active effort of will, and the various parts of their soul would would be at odds with each other. That would also separate their goals and motivations from solars and gsps.

That certainly would have been interesting. But now seems to be unlikely to happen considering we have an official dead Frankenstein esque exalt.

 

[Taliesin]

Alternate perspective: The plan of the Neverborn is simple, and works in harmony with the fact that violence is easy, but tends to cause terrible consequences down the road. Except for the Neverborn, those terrible consequences are exactly what they want. "Years to build and moments to ruin," is exactly their goal.


By contrast, the Yozi's plan is complex, runs counter to the ambitions of many of their recruits, and isn't all that well put together to begin with. Yes, the Yozi's have been scheming for millennia, but they're Yozi's. They're really smart, but only within their preconcieved understanding of the world, and that understanding frequently, violently conflicts with their peers and, well, reality. They have a limited toolset with which to be discerning, and are frequently irrational about utilising that toolset.

 

[Darkon]

I actually wish the Abyssals were actually -DEAD-. As in, not had a close brush with death, but kicked the bucket, passed on, and were drug back. Holding themselves together would be a much more active effort of will, and the various parts of their soul would would be at odds with each other.

Huh, I never thought about it that way. That would be interesting. The deathlord could force a higher soul into a zombie/corpse along with a hungry ghost, and fuse the three (corpse, higher soul, hungry ghost) together with the broken tainted Abyssal exaltation. I may have to use this as a way to throw my players who "know it all."

 

[Holden]

[QUOTE="The Dark Wizard]That certainly would have been interesting. But now seems to be unlikely to happen considering we have an official dead Frankenstein esque exalt.

[/QUOTE]
Liminals are very much alive. Ish. Usually.

 

[The Dark Wizard]

Liminals are very much alive. Ish. Usually.

Ah thanks for clearing that up !.

 

[Thorn Darkblade]

The tight shackles on Abyssals, in my opinion, are incredibly reminiscent of the shackles of ghostly fetters. Considering their masters, this isn't entirely inappropriate.


Although, I agree, I'm definitely looking forward to the Liminals. Insert girlish shrieks of joy here.

 

[hellrazoromega]

Another thing to consider, as I recall, is that Deathkinghts can redeem themselves and become Solars once again because the Neverborn's process, stolen from the Yozis is imperfect. The Green Sun Princes are irrevocably a new type of Exalted and I doubt anyone short of Autochthon himself could "repair" their Exaltations.

 

[Ina]

Another thing to remember is that the GSPs were designed by committee for a nominal goal, but aren't necessarily given urges to complete that goal, and in general had competing desires and influences of the different involved Yozi. It's also a fairly complex goal with no obvious methods of going about it, thus more leeway is necessary to increase chances of success through allowing unorthodox methods.


Meanwhile the Neverborn are united in goal and vision of their exalt, difficult as it may be for them to articulate the specifics, they are not dead. They are more alive than even the Deathlords, and they may be crazy and causes of madness, but their purpose for their exalted is identical, and while it's far from an -easy- goal it's not a particularly complex goal. Kill everyone.


Not only is that a goal that's relatively easy to check if it's being worked towards, it is also one for which it is known how to do it. The problem isn't really in doing it so much as it is in that others may seek to stop you from doing it. That is an issue loyal GSPs also have to face, but GSPs also have to deal with the question of 'how am I even going to do this in the first place?' and because it isn't known how (if the Yozis knew how, they would already have done it, or at least given better instructions to the GSPs) it cannot be as easily checked.

 

[hellrazoromega]

I will say just as an aside in my own Exalted game I picked a random number less that 150, that number was 127. That was the number of exalted souls the Deathlords managed to grab, after giving the Yozis the 50 they owned them that left the Deathlords with 77 souls to make Deathkinghts. I wanted a number that gave a bit of an advantage to the Solars since they are disadvantaged in almost every other way. Unlike the GSPs and Deathkights the Solars have no Mentors of grace them with training and insane amounts of artifacts. Add to that the fact that the Solars are so hunted figured I would throw them a bone--albeit a small one that the players only found out about after years of play and some creative research.