Gods vs the Primordial

[Seraphina]

I have a question regarding the power level of the Gods vs the Primordials. Were the gods actually stronger then the primordial or just less vulnerable since they lacked weaker "souls"? It seems that the with the exception of the Unconquered Sun and Luna, the Incarnae are only slightly stronger then a third circle demon.


I love reading exalted but my lack of experience playing the game makes comparing their reveled charms almost meaningless.


I'd love to hear some theories and power comparisons.

 

[Captain Hesperus]

The Gods were not even close in comparison to the Primordials. Between their Geas and the relative deficiency in power, they would have stood no chance against the Primordials, thus the Exalted.


Captain Hesperus

 

[Inverse]

If the Gods suddenly had the Geas removed, what would their chances of fighting the Primordials have been without the Exalted?

 

[Seraphina]

Thanks


I had always heard that the Celestial Incarnae were far more powerful then the Primordials and that was way their Exalted were so much more powerful then the Primordial exalted (This was before the infernal books of course) After reading the Return of the Scarlet Empress and seeing one of the options for beings that could defeat the Unconcerned Sun I was a little disappointed.


So Geas aside would you say that I was correct and the most powerful Gods are the equivalent (in power) to a third circle soul or fetch soul?


I always figured one reason the Old Solar exalted never took over heaven was because they couldn't stand its combined might and couldn't work there way up like they could with the Primordials.

 

[Captain Hesperus]

No, the Gods, even the Incarnae, were created to be inferior to the Primordials. I mean, seriously, why would beings paranoid enough to place a geas of non-aggression on their creations make those same creations more powerful than themselves?


The reason the Exalted defeated the Primordials was because, unlike the gods or the Primordials, they were mortal and well aware of their own mortality. Thus they fought for their lives and the lives of others, putting their hearts and souls into every stroke and their defiance of death into every parry and dodge. If the gods were able to fight the Primordials, the battles would have been longer and more often stalemates, since both sides would have had no urgency to conclude the fighting.


Captain Hesperus

 

[Plague of Hats]

The truly most powerful gods, when working within their constraints, are more powerful than most anyone else in a head-to-head conflict, even the titans. They exist this way because they are the ultimate expressions of spiritual nature. Primordials past and present bent their great wills to make them more than the base desires of their creators. The Unconquered Sun was conceived by the cleverness of the Dragon's Shadow, and forged in the kingly fires of the Empyreal Chaos with artifice stolen from the Great Maker. He was tested by the bitterest sea, and more legend than that, yet he outshines all those who had a hand in his creation. In his way. He's still not the cleverest god, or the luckiest. He must exhaust his potent will to surmount the insurmountable. When it is up to the revealed pattern of samsara, the Maidens can outdo him in this, if that is part of what they see.


Of the small gods, those who are not Incarnae, the best of them are in the same ballpark as the great souls of the titans. But, again, this is a fact with lots of extra ideas hidden behind it that make the issue deliciously complex. Amalion might make a war manse, and Yo-Ping might pacify a battle in a strategic way that gives the advantage to his side, but in general, those who are not war-spirits are not especially well-suited to the kind of conflict that make the Exalted so frightening to their creators. Spirits tend to be very inflexible, while the Chosen are incredibly adaptable. In physical combat especially, the Exalted shine bright and early. But this is a kung fu movie, amongst other things; all but the most pacifistic god should have great personal power, because enlightenment equals ass-kicking. Heaven is full of those guys, plus a bunch of actual conflict-natured gods.


The gods suffer the Geas because they had real potential to harm the Primordials. They could not have killed them, and it would have been hard fought, but their potency was such that the titans had good reason to bind them against such acts. Even if, by raw power or sheer numbers, the gods could not finally have won the day, it would have been a foolish exercise not to guard against the harm they could do. They were in positions of great power even before the Celestial Order, and incredibly numerous.


The Exalted could certainly have taken Heaven, if they really wanted to. They can, in the end, accomplish nearly anything. That kind of sentiment gets overplayed a lot, and it often makes things sound a lot easier than they should be. A War for Heaven would be catastrophic, and Yu-Shan almost certainly would be a poor prize by the end of it, even if it were taken by means other than outright combat. Whether with subversive words or bloody swords, the Celestial Bureaucracy would likely be ruined, and despite its (also overplayed) corruption, that shit's kind of important.

 

[Seraphina]

Thank you so much Plague of Hats! That explanation really brings it all into focus for me and explains fully what I originally saw as conflicting ideas from different writers.