God/dess of Heroic Challenge

[Jukashi]

So I was wondering, why would there be a tendency in the Loom of Fate to elevate some humans (and, apparently, some other creatures, since there is occasionally mention of similarly extraordinary beasts) above their peers and set them on a path of adventure and excitement and so on?


Obviously it's because that's what makes the game, but what's the reason from an internal viewpoint?


Most likely, it's for the entertainment of the primordials. The Games of Divinity are fun and all, but even the Incarna take breaks from that now and then, so I'd imagine the primordials would get bored of it sometimes; that's why they'd go toy with Creation and end up making it miserable for all the gods and mortals. So I'd say the reason for heroes to be chosen out in the Loom is so they can play out their stories for the amusement of the creators of the world. So then the idea occurred to me that, in order to have really interesting stories to watch, you'd need someone who's good at it to write them.


So then I had the idea of a God whose job it was to write the stories that become legends. Since the basic formula for a heroic story is always hero + hero's goal + obstacle, and heroes provide their own goals while the Loom provides the heroes, the God would essentially be the God of Heroic Challenge; a spirit who's job it is, essentially, to introduce conflict, set obstacles and generally make certain people's lives harder. But in a cool, dramatic way.


Now, this the part where I, not possessing certain books, have to ask whether there's anyone like this already, because if they're not I have a few ideas about making one. So, is there?

 

[cyl]

I love the concept, very greek.


So the god's job would be only to write the surroundings and plant the prereqs to initiate the quest, and let the hero go through it... Primordials and gods often liked to just watch their helpless creatures get through impossible situations... yeah fits perfectly.


The only problem is: divine, and exalted intervention.


If the Loom can arrange certain conditions, it can't pre plan if a god would favor one hero or if an exalt would get in the way, and that happens a lot... so this job would be entirely and ultimately frustrating for the story planner, cause a lot of things could fuck up his job.

 

[Smeggedoff]

being the huge mermorperger nerd that I am I instantly see this huge god like conept having a golden "!" over his head


cool Idea though

 

[cyl]

:lol:


In fact that reminds me of the Matrix trilogy, where ALMOST everything has been planned for Neo to reload the matrix, except that he didn't do it when he was supposed to, but did it in the end.


As the Loom of Fate and Creation are quite alike, I'm sure some god(s) (even some administration in the bureau of humanity) must be in charge of this.

 

[Jukashi]

Divine intervention would be the big problem for them... but they probably wouldn't be inclined to play by the same rules as other gods. I'd imagine that before the First Age, they'd just have the authorization from the primordials to do whatever they needed to set up a good story, whether it's just weaving in the Loom or actually going down and reworking things directly with Charms.


Now, after the primordial war, you have a problem. All of the Exalted are heroes, and the primordial war was the biggest heroic challenge ever; thus, this god would probably have become ridiculously powerful, probably on level with the heads of the bureaus of Destiny, and would have stayed that way as the Exalted started the business of building the First Age. That's when things begin to get messy.


This god would seem like a good candidate to have fought on the losing team, but what if they weren't? They're the god of conflicts and strife, but without conflict you can't have victory; without a limit to overcome, how do you get stronger? Thus, such a god could easily have been one of the original teachers of the Exalted, crafting the challenges that made them strong enough to overcome the primordials. And that makes it more interesting, because you get to see some moral conflict on the early Exalted's behalf. The primordials are gone but the heroes remain, and legends remain to be written; I see this god as an artist, someone who enjoys doing their job for the reward of seeing a really good story play out, who'll keep doing it for their own enjoyment. And as the Exalted get stronger, the obstacles have to get bigger, and eventually the god's stories are causing misery on a huge scale. Eventually, the Exalted would be forced to kill or seal away our poor God of Heroic Challenges, despite its having been, in many ways, their mentor.


"Seal away" would be preferred, since then you have the possibility of them getting free... >:3

 

[Smeggedoff]

hmm, I'm likeing the Idea that if he were sealed during the primordial war it might explain the heroes all being betrayed and murder, he could be in charge of making sure heroes overcome the goals he's set for them.


an amulet or weapon with his power sealed into it could be cool, sort of excalibur-esque "Draw this sword and Overcome my test to become Hero of Heroes"

 

[cyl]

It would also mean, that his seal would have blocked the potential for heroism... or other god took his place and the hero thread would keep on entertaining the audience.


I like the idea of him/her mentoring the exalts, but I don't see the point in his  sealing, on the contrary, the exalt could have been thrilled to play against his settings... entertaining themselves, the gods and the rest of Creation.

 

[Jukashi]

I actually prefer the idea of a goddess over a god... it is heroic challenge, not mundane difficulty, and in Exalted the main difference seems to be that heroes go out and strive for things while everyone else just gets on with life. So the job would be more putting obstacles in their path rather than throwing troubles at them, and that strikes me as, I dunno, more feminine. Sexist? Maybe. There should be a bit of that, though, if you're going for a mythological setting.


As regards the idea of her being sealed leading to the Usurpation, I was thinking of it more in terms of the effects of the Great Curse being worsened by her absence. Being challenged keeps you humble; I don't think the Solars (Or the Sidereals, for that matter) would have gained so much hubris if everything hadn't been so easy for them.


I'd say certain rules applied to her challenges; like, there has to be a possibility for the hero to achieve victory, because certain failure is just as boring as certain success. And so forth.

 

[Jukashi]

I like the idea of him/her mentoring the exalts, but I don't see the point in his  sealing, on the contrary, the exalt could have been thrilled to play against his settings... entertaining themselves, the gods and the rest of Creation.

Yes, but what does it take to challenge an Exalt? More to the point, what does it take to challenge an Exalt in a truly exciting, dramatic way? There has to be something at stake for a story to have real depth to it; how can you thrill to someone's adventures when you know they could just give up without losing anything? I see her weaving vast wars to test the strategy of the Dawn, razing their way through nations; I see deadly, contagious plagues scything through the populace, testing the artifice of the Twilight. Mass heresy, secret criminal cults, hate-fueled trade sanctions: such are the things that will draw all the passion and expertise that the ancient Lawgivers could bring to bear.


And remember, in the First Age it wouldn't be just her stories any more. Demons released by inept sorcerers, Fair Folk testing the defenses now that the primordials are gone, ghosts sowing terror among their descendants... Why waste time with a god's needless games when there's real trouble threatening Creation?

 

[cyl]

I too think the god would be a goddess.


More feminine like to arrange things to go in a certain way and to plant difficulty in order for someone to follow a path she has chosen for him.


Most greek goddesses, Hera the first among all, behaved so.


But maybe the idea of sealing makes sense when you put it that way, but this is very very mean... even for siddies to seal such a mentor.


I see her more like someone who planted events and conditions (not just throw beasts to plague communities), long before the quests could begin, who wrote whole scripts for certain soul, in order to make them heroes and entertain the gods and Prims.


Big question: what can you do with her being sealed... what "good" would it do to unseal her, as she would rather continue her work and make the world a real nasty place for heroes to rise once again(sort of Gabriel in Constantine... "But it's only in the face of horror that you truly find your noble self. And you can be so noble. So... I will bring you pain, I will bring you horror. So that you may rise above it."), because as you stated, there is no hero if there is no challenge.

 

[Jukashi]

There are several ways she'd be released. Accidentally is the most obvious one; a lot of things get damaged as time passes, particularly with inexperienced solars running around. It could also be a god that frees her; a lot of the powerful ones are bored of their existence, and would appreciate someone around to make things interesting.


The most likely possibility is probably the Silver Pact Lunars: most of them share the view that it was the ease of the First Age that brought ruin to Creation, and in following the Thousand Streams River they subject mortal societies to much the same as she would to them. They'd want her around to make challenges that make the heroes of Creation stronger, rather than the random conflicts that may not have a lesson behind them.


Finally, you could give her some sort of unique ability that would make her favor worth it; as one of the old gods, the primordials might have given her something they didn't give to anyone else. Say, for example, the primordials didn't like the way one of her stories went: so they gave her the power to "reset" a portion of the Loom of Fate, essentially rewinding a portion of Creation to a point in the past and undoing all the events that happened in that area after a certain time, so she could do it again in a way more to their pleasing. Plays hell with the Loom, but the primordials strike me as the type to be cheating bastards; even if she couldn't undo more than a day's worth of events or affect an area larger than a city with it, that's still very powerful.


As for sealing her being a very mean thing to do... well, for the Sidereals, yes, but for the Solars, not so much. The first stages of the primordial war were of secrecy and intrigue; she wouldn't have personally come down from on high to summon a behemoth for them to fight (Though it's fun to imagine it happening in the First Age). Rather, she'd have been in Yu-Shan, secretly weaving instructive destinies while the Maidens and Sidereals concealed her actions from the primordials. It'd still be a cruel thing to do, but for the Deliberative, there would be enough emotional distance for it to happen.

 

[Smeggedoff]

ooh I like that, freeing the goddess of challenge because you screwed up and let someone die, just so she could rewind it so you could have another go seems to make the example Hero seem so...Human


(trust a woman to make you feel small)


of coure, she's have to make it more...interesting, this time round...

 

[Vanman]

My question is why is she locked away? Another take - what if she changed teams, so to speak? Yes, the DBs usurped the Solars and Lunars, but they were no less heroic for doing it. Well, okay, maybe the sneakiness involved wouldn't necessarily qualify as heroic, but what if the Sidereals got her on their side? The stories are still epic, particularly from the point of view of both sides. The Solars had to fight off the host of Dragon-Blooded facing them, the Dragon-Blooded had to face mad Solars fighting for their lives. Why is she on the side of the Solars? If she's a goddess of Heroic Challenge, then that's what she'd be interested in - the challenge, rather than the players.


The other question I had - why would the Primordials be interested in raising humans up at all? Mortals were like insects to them. The Exalts were raised by the gods, in response to the Primordial "threat." As such, they have no real connection to the Primordials, except as antagonists. I could certainly see her coming about because of the actions of the gods - and that might be an interesting dynamic in heaven. A lot of gods getting jealous as this upstart fledgling suddenly getting so powerful with the advent of the Exalts. But as a creation of the Primordials? Not so much. At least in my book. Just my two cents.....

 

[Jukashi]

The other question I had - why would the Primordials be interested in raising humans up at all? Mortals were like insects to them. The Exalts were raised by the gods, in response to the Primordial "threat." As such, they have no real connection to the Primordials, except as antagonists. I could certainly see her coming about because of the actions of the gods - and that might be an interesting dynamic in heaven. A lot of gods getting jealous as this upstart fledgling suddenly getting so powerful with the advent of the Exalts. But as a creation of the Primordials? Not so much. At least in my book. Just my two cents.....

What other reason is there for heroic mortals to appear, except for the amusement of the primordials? All you need is extras if you're looking for worship. Perhaps they were like insects, but insects can be interesting.

 

[cyl]

I tend to agree with vanman, I'd even say, such a god would surely be the one who worked with Lytek when they chose the first exalts, planning their destinies and challenges... why would they send her away ?


Unless you made her a new ancient maiden, responsible for the destinies of exaltation, one that has been cast away because Creation didn't need more challenges.

 

[cyl]

Moreover, most of the Primordials didn't give a damn about humanity or their creatures for that matter, many of them left their creatures to play GoD, and the only interest they seemed to take in eons was to discard/destroy/anihilate them or forge their soul into soulsteel.

 

[Hanat-Osul]

S/he would probably have to work or contend with Lytek, as I see a fair amount of overlap in their purviews.

 

[Malekith]

this is somewhat close:


http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/wiki.pl?Sh ... dyShataina

 

[Jukashi]

Moreover, most of the Primordials didn't give a damn about humanity or their creatures for that matter, many of them left their creatures to play GoD, and the only interest they seemed to take in eons was to discard/destroy/anihilate them or forge their soul into soulsteel.

More reason for her to go down and handle things herself. Non-essence-using mortals probably would be boring for primordials... so to make it interesting, she could be an actor as well as a writer, using Charms to take on the role of the villain or rival herself, thereby allowing her to use essence directly and add the equivalent of special effects. Plus, at the time it wouldn't just be humans. She'd be putting the Dragon Kings and the other non-human species of the period into her works as well.

S/he would probably have to work or contend with Lytek' date=' as I see a fair amount of overlap in their purviews.[/quote']
She'd produce the challenge that triggers the Exaltation, so probably.

why would they send her away?

Well, aside from the aforementioned spillover of the problems she'd make for the Exalted, there's also the idea that she, personally, might be kind of a bitch.


Consider the circumstances of the prehuman age. There are no pattern spiders, so the Maidens slave at the Loom all the time. The Unconquered Sun sees to it that all the other gods keep to their tasks, and Luna alternately entertains Gaia and keeps the Wyld away from her. They're all doing jobs that keep Creation running.


But this Goddess is an entertainer for the primordials. Sometimes she's there at the Loom with the Maidens, but rather than keeping the world running she's just adding complications that make the other gods' lives more difficult. And sometimes she heads down and sets things up herself, because as you say, essence-users might get involved and screw things up from a purely destiny-based standpoint, and while she's down there she just treats the Terrestrial gods as scenery. The primordials have given her special privileges and because she's an artist (or thinks of herself as one), she acts aloof and smug. She helps against the primordials, because she wants to be able to write stories without them commanding her to do it differently all the time, but she's not nice. This is the goddess who looks at a poor young mortal hero trying to help his beloved peasant village survive the snow and hunger, and says to herself "That's boring, let's add a pack of wolves." She's not just being mean to the hero; she's endangering the small god of the village, too, and doesn't care.


In fact I kind of see her as a bit like a fanfic writer, taking characters she didn't necessarily create and putting them into new stories, occasionally letting established facts slide in favor of her "vision". And most fanfic writers are female, apparently, so that's another reason for her to be a goddess.

 

[cyl]

Well you do realize then she has to be something very close to a Maiden because before the First Age she had more freedom than they did and she could write and overwrite fate.


I agree with you the danger she representated then (as a bitchy writer) would have been percieved as dangerous and she could have willingly get over herself with her freedom and endanger many mortals with her stories to the point the exalts decided to cast her away.


Maybe the bitch wrote her own story... Growing bored of her job, she decided to take some time to think of new scenarios and plotted her being sealed away and being freed by other heroes to unleash new fascinating stories on Creation.

 

[Jukashi]

Well you do realize then she has to be something very close to a Maiden because before the First Age she had more freedom than they did and she could write and overwrite fate.

You could definitely write her as as a previous Sixth Maiden; the world before the First Age was wild and untamed, fraught with dangerous Behemoths and the inhuman lower souls of the primordials. So if she were the Maiden of Strife or something she might have gotten the chop in the end, with Venus (because there'd have been no real Serenity for anyone but the primordials) or Mars (because without civilization there wouldn't have been any big wars or armies, just small-scale clashes) taking her place. I think that contradicts canon, though.


Or, since there are occasionally breakages of the pattern of five in Exalted (like adamant being a possible sixth MM), she could just be a lost sixth Maiden without necessarily having been fed to the Loom. Personally, though, I prefer the idea of her being just a powerful Celestial god who remains a bit outside the normal hierarchy. It lets her serve in games as the Card-Carrying Villain, the one who gloats over failed heroes, or who always comes back with a new challenge for someone who's beaten her before, but who the characters can't just kill off because if she dies, her stories unravel and everything they struggled for will just crumble away. No reward without a test, after all.

Maybe the bitch wrote her own story... Growing bored of her job, she decided to take some time to think of new scenarios and plotted her being sealed away and being freed by other heroes to unleash new fascinating stories on Creation.

I like that idea. If that was the case, she might have left a few big events to go off while she was away... the Usurpation, for example. Just to keep everyone on their toes. >:3

 

[Ultracog]

I like the ancient/deceased Sixth Maiden idea, but doesn't this proposed Goddess of Heroic Challenge sound an awful lot like the Unconquered Sun?

 

[Jukashi]

Perhaps, but is the Unconquered Sun likely to actually get off his ass and spend the time to do any of it?


In any case, there is a difference. The US is god of perfection and Chief of the Gods, and although he probably is God of Heroes as well, he's not necessarily the god of the challenges which heroes face. The Unconquered Sun is Holy, and such challenges sometimes involve things which are Unholy; a God of Heroic Challenge will, by necessity, be a bit... well, villainous.

 

[cyl]

I think a possibility would be to make her the sixth Maiden (the Elder sister- the one of Challenges), that chose having been fed to the Loom by her own story (which included a challenge itself), to take some time to think of new stories, and had chosen a specific trigger for her to awaken (like the disappearance of a very important and central ruler -> the Scarlet Empress) and start to write new fascinating stories of challenges.


Now she IS the Loom, and she can move everything according to her plans... but her stories can be compromised by what she doesn't have control of (everything that's outside the Loom - Underworld and Malfeas).

 

[Jukashi]

Again, if you like it that way it certainly is an interesting idea. As I said, I prefer the idea of a god who'll serve as an active catalyst to the story. Someone who'll kick down your Orichalcum door* and say "So, you think you're tough, do you? We shall see! Complete my Twelve Arduous Tasks by Calibration's End or your beloved city shall be reduced to rubble and despair! Mua ha ha haa!!"


I understand that's not for everyone, though.


*Serves you right for making the door frame out of ordinary marble.