Gauging Threats

[Kyeudo]

I'm about to try my hand at Storytelling, and I'm a little unsure as to just how much of a threat a typical circle of Solars can handle. How do you go about figuring out what is a good challenge and what is overkill when playing Exalted?

 

[Sir_Jarkko]

A circle of solars can handle a lot. Depending of their focus in certain things (battles, social combats, stealth...) they either kick ass, win, win while kicking ass or kick ass while wining. I, as a beginner ST, haven't yet found out what a three solars couldn't do. So far, they have:


- beaten a mortal mercenary gang of 20 people


- beaten abyssal warrior (by surprise attack, but I guess they'd have won the fight even without surprise)


- destroyed an automata (I guess it was due my bad concept of these "mechas")


- ripped apart a small dragon blooded party (3 vs 4)


- beaten a mortal mercenary gang of 40 people led by a circle of Dragon Bloods (yes, they had support and yes, it was a mass combat)


These are examples of our three manned circle. I have learned a lot about challenges and storytelling in general, but my main lessons have been the following:


Dragon Blood vs Solar = instawin


Solar vs gang of common thugs =/= interesting challenge


Solar Circle vs single Abyssal =/= The Big Bad Guy


I guess somebody with more experience can give better idea about "Solars&Challenges". These are just my two cents, from beginner ST to beginner ST.

 

[Persell]

I seem to remember seeing in one of the books examples of DV and on average what dice pools defeat them, plus what type of being might have such a pool. I'll be damned if I can remember what book that was in off the top of my head, but it should be in either the Core or the ST's Companion. I could have confused it with something else though, or something in 1E.

 

[Kyeudo]

I've found that table (Core Book, just after the Charms) and I'm using it to plan out what should be appropriate, but that is geared to "What is a threat to a single Solar" rather than "What threatens a Circle of Solars"


If somethings a decent threat to the best combatant, does it remain a threat to the entire group? Probably not, so I'd need to make it tougher. But how much tougher? Too tough, and it will kill somebody when I didn't intend it to.

 

[wordman]

If somethings a decent threat to the best combatant, does it remain a threat to the entire group?

To ask another question if one thing is a decent threat to one solar, are X things a threat to X solars?
A lot of the answer hinges on tactics. Dragon Blooded, for example, can become vastly more dangerous with a little planning.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Generally, it's best to have a variety of foes in any one combat, most of the time, with the possible exception of occasional challenges involving a single very powerful opponent. This makes things easier, in that you can build an encounter with foes suited to the various characters abilities, and frankly, is usually more of a challenge than a single foe. After all, one foe can only act so often, while being swarmed by a group, their motes and actions cannot last forever. Still, Second Circle Demons, for example, can often hold up well to a somewhat experienced group of Exalts. Similarly, I'd suggest you wait quite a while before having a group face a Deathlord in combat. If a combat encounter seems too small, don't be afraid to throw in a throng of extras to be slaughtered by the dozens, and make your heroes or villains feel like they are exceptional...while also potentially forcing them to waste a few extra motes, especially if they have solid officers, and use coordinated attacks.


Don't ignore non-combat things, though. Social and intellectual situations are a good thing too. They both broaden out the world, and make it more interesting, and allow characters other than the combat twinked ones to shine. Whether making allies, plotting to overthrow some enemy, gathering armies, crafting artifacts, searching through ancient ruins or what have you, the world is full of options to use more than just one's Daiklaive.

 

[strawberryleaves]

One idea would be to run a few one-shot, combat-based scenarios before actually starting a campaign. This would let your players try out different builds, and realize whether some of their ideas are good or not.


I would also run at least one scenario involving social combat, just to get your characters familiar with the mechanics.


Of course, you'd be throwing different types of opponents (with varying power levels) at them all this time, and gauging how much of a challenge each group would be.

 

[Dracogryff]

Aya...it's often best to have multiple opponents, especially when one person is a Combat-Monkey-of-Doom and the rest of the party, well....isn't. I eventually started making one real threat, and several lesser threats in an encounter, so that the 'big baddy' didn't kill off all the less powerful characters (because they would if they were an actual threat to the combat monkey) and so that the less leet characters could actually stand a chance of doing something by actually having something they could hurt in the fight (which was also a problem, as anything the combat monkey couldn't one-hit kill they couldn't hurt...)...


Really, it depends on the group dynamic. Strawberry's suggestion is a pretty sound one, actually. It would help in letting you (and the players) get a feel for what they can and cannot do. I may use that sometime in the future if I really need to get a feel for a group.

 

[Kyeudo]

Sounds like some good advice. My biggest reason for asking, though, was because I want to use an Essence 5 Abyssal as a villian at one point and I'm trying to figure out how soon to have him show up in the story. I want him to be a fight that gets the whole circle involved in one way or another, but I don't want him to kill anyone.

 

[cyl]

Just give them one single "out of death" free card. It helps. (Flagg's introduced me to the concept this friday, sounded cool).


Also, if you want to hurt them without killing them, there are a lot of cool charms/ spells dealing AoE bashing damage, resisted with a attribute+ability roll (most of the time Stam+Resist).


With a combination of these, in short time you can make them "suffer and fear for their life" without the risk of actually kiling them.


I used 2 immaculate essence 4, with Earth and Air Dragon styles, vs a group of essence 4 celestials, most of the pcs had a severe headache after the fight.


With a deathknight it's different: they're meant to kill. If I can suggest one thing, low damage weapon (short klaves.)

 

[Flagg]

Just give them one single "out of death" free card. It helps. (Flagg's introduced me to the concept this friday, sounded cool).

There's nothing that sucks more than having a cool character die a lame death because of a dice roll, so I let my players have the option to escape death once per character. I find they choose to let them die about 50% of the time.

 

[strawberryleaves]

Sounds like some good advice. My biggest reason for asking, though, was because I want to use an Essence 5 Abyssal as a villian at one point and I'm trying to figure out how soon to have him show up in the story. I want him to be a fight that gets the whole circle involved in one way or another, but I don't want him to kill anyone.

How soon do you want him to show up?


Just because the Big Bad makes an appearance doesn't mean there has to be a bloody fight to the death right then and there. Toy with them a bit...or better yet, have the Abyssal blatantly regard the PCs as insignificant. Let the PCs throw everything they can at him, and after they fail (a minor injury or two would simply raise his opinion of certain combat monsters in the party), he could do a 'I have better things to do than stay here with you' bit and disappear, leaving a bunch of minions to challenge the PCs. An area-effect attack designed to soften up the Circle for his minions before he leaves would be a nice touch. This way, the Circle is down some WP and motes, not to mention (possibly) health levels when the minions come for them. Makes for a tougher fight.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Also...they don't necessarilly have to kill someone they defeat. This goes both ways. But, with an Abyssal, it's especially easy to leave your foes laying in misery, friends and allies slaughtered or hating them, limbs missing, and otherwise having a very, very bad day...no deaths of PCs required. Especially if you have someone with Medicine charms or Artifacts, a few missing limbs can go a long way towards worrying people and pissing them off, without leaving them unable to recover. Perhaps have the villain toy with them, fight them and leave them defeated, but alive, sure that in time, they will realize the futility of their meager opposition to the true fate of Oblivion, and service to their proper master. Just remember one thing...PCs tend to react to things in interesting manners...and sometimes pull things off that you would never expect. If you want your villain to get away for certain, make sure they have some method prepared before hand.

 

[cyl]

And he can also have potions healing HLs !


Drinkin' one while continuing the fight would be awesomely artistic !

 

[Haku1]

No need to do that... have a spirit slave using Touch of Grace should be enough... really. It's not like the Big Bad is going to be packing Celestial Wine, right?

 

[Kyeudo]

I can see it now. Abyssal, sword in one hand, wineglass in the other. Gets mad when they almost cause him to spill a drop.