Flocks of Familiars

[Dereis]

One of my players wants a 5 point familiar that is a flock of birds.  I really like the idea, and want to incorporate it, but what should be the abilities/stats/limitations?


I was thinking that they would all share a single mind, with which she would be mind-linked.  There would be roughly 30 birds, and she could share senses with or speak through each of them, possibly with some kind of range limitation.  Is there a range limitation on normal familiars on sense sharing?


If they are one mind, they would act as one, taking one turn in combat and sharing stats, but what should they be?  With a familiar that is so potentially useful, should I give it decent combat abilities or treat them as normal birds?

 

[Forn Clakes]

That's a really great idea, I might have to use it.  I don't think a single bird should be that powerful, no more than normal, but when they dive and attack on mass, man, that should cause some major damage.  


One thing that does come to mind however is what happens if several of the birds die for what ever means?  Would others join the flock or would the Familiar rating be dropped?


~FC.

 

[Vanman]

That's a really great idea, I might have to use it.  I don't think a single bird should be that powerful, no more than normal, but when they dive and attack on mass, man, that should cause some major damage.  
One thing that does come to mind however is what happens if several of the birds die for what ever means?  Would others join the flock or would the Familiar rating be dropped?


~FC.

Hmmm. I may have to use it as well. One possible way to treat it is to draw up stats for the flock as a whole, including health levels. Depending on how many health levels there were, whenever said health level was taken, a few birds die. Then, as the damage is healed, those birds are replaced.  It seems rough to drop the familiar rating. When your lion familiar is hurt in combat, his familiar rating doesn't drop. If that was the case, then this familiar doesn't seem as useful to me as a single familiar. Certainly not a level 5 variety.


This brings up another question, though - what if the flock is attacked by charms? How would that affect them? Again, I'd think the entire flock could be targeted, as it's a single familiar, but there may be certain bonuses for the flock if it is attacked, since they're all spread out. Maybe a certain level of soak or a much higher Dodge ability based on the fact that the flock is spread out so much.


I'd also say that the character could only speak through one bird at a time, maybe also only share senses with one bird at a time but could flick through the birds if need be. Just my two cents......


Cheers,


V

 

[StarHawk]

The thing is, any PC or even NPC is only allowed to be spirit tied to one animal at a time. What I would suggest is have one be a familiar and make the others allies that follow said familiar. A PC in one of my upcoming games did it that way with a pack of wolves.

 

[Forn Clakes]

The thing is, any PC or even NPC is only allowed to be spirit tied to one animal at a time. What I would suggest is have one be a familiar and make the others allies that follow said familiar. A PC in one of my upcoming games did it that way with a pack of wolves.

That's a good idea, actually.

This brings up another question, though - what if the flock is attacked by charms? How would that affect them? Again, I'd think the entire flock could be targeted, as it's a single familiar, but there may be certain bonuses for the flock if it is attacked, since they're all spread out. Maybe a certain level of soak or a much higher Dodge ability based on the fact that the flock is spread out so much.

Yeah, I like that idea too.  


~FC.

 

[wordman]

I really like the idea, and want to incorporate it, but what should be the abilities/stats/limitations?

Take a look at the spell Flight of Separation. It's not directly applicible, but should point you in the right direction.

 

[Dereis]

Arg, so hard to decide when all suggestions are so good.


By the canon, I believe that StarHawk is right that, while not specified, it is implied that the familiar backgroud is intended to reside within a single being.  While this would make a certain amount of sense with most predatory packs, such as wolves or a pride of lions or even gorillas, it just doesn't feel right with generally non-violent animals.  A flock of birds, for example, can seem to move in such unison that they seem to have one mind, which would lend to the idea that in a cool fantasy world they do.


The problem is, if you send one to Northwall, Chiaroscuro, Yu-Shan, the Underworld, etc, you can instantly communicate with a variety of powers instantly.  Not too big of a problem to manage, I guess, but still an annoyance factor.


For the purposes of combat I would treat the change as mostly cosmetic.  As long as they are together as one in combat, they would share health levels, take effects as one, and attack as one.  If separated and one of them dies, I may impose a temporary minor penalty (shock, mourning), but they would regenerate.  I think I will give it wimpy attack capability, though.  I will keep the dodge high and the soak high enough, but say it can only attack and do damage to unarmored opponents.


Instead they will be able to fly in the face of the enemy and distract them from attacking or defending.  Depending on how many birds are present and attacking and the current conditions, I will allow them to reduce attack dice by 1-4, or reduce dodge or parry dice by 1-4.  The more that are sent as messengers, emmisaries, and spies, the less effect in combat.


There will be 20 birds.  The kind of bird has yet to be determined, but she was thinking crows or ravens.


Does this sound comprable to a level 5 familiar?  Should the combat effect be more?

 

[Flagg]

Not to be an ass, but I think even considering using a flock of birds in combat is somewhat ridiculous. If the character feels such empathy with these creatures, why force them to die needlessly in conflicts with high-powered supernatural beings, where they'll be an annoyance at best?


If the character wants extra combat power, there are 50 better ways already in print.


-S

 

[Dereis]

Well they probably wouldn't be stupid enough to use them against creatures that would obviously kill them without even having to split their dice.  This would just be some kind of an effect that would influence combat.  Level 5 familiars are supposed to be badass, right?  Like a winged, fire-breathing tiger or something?  Isn't part of the solar essence infused into an animal? So I'm just brainstorming for some ablities to make it equivalently cool.  And even being an annoyance in combat is something.

 

[StarHawk]

having a familiar of 5 is supposed to be a big dangerous animal with the inteligence of a nine-year-old child. It doesn't really mean it's a bad-ass in battle. Nor does it mean it's really helpful in combat.


That would be up to the ST, if you want to make a level 5 a bad-ass go ahead.

 

[Dereis]

ok but really, it says at 3 points, that a familiar should be powerful and dangerous, implying combat ability.  If it is impressive and intelligent, it can fetch items and do small chores.  At 5 points, if the familiar does not have significant combat ability at all, it should be an EXTREMELY intelligent, impressive, or otherwise useful pet.  If it does have have significant combat abilities, "powerful or dangerous" in the book, then it should still be of "increased intelligence" as granted at 4 dots, sharing of senses, near-perfect communication, provide extra essence when touching the character.  By increased intelligence we can assume they mean roughly mortal intelligence, at level 4.  Most level 5 familiars also double as mounts, which is obviously not happening here.


If I were to make this familiar be totally non-combat, then I shouldn't restrict the range of sense-sharing, she should be able to speak through each of them, the birds should have decent stealth and high dodge, and she should be able to draw a certain amount of essence from them at the very least.  Also, the standard fetch items and do small chores bit. Some kind of combat effect or other interesting magical ability or effect I feel is also in order, being as it is a level 5.


But Stillborn's criticism is valid... allowing a flock of birds to attack or even affect the Chosen of the gods is a little silly.  So perhaps another significant bonus that would be appropriate for a flock of crows or ravens. Something that is tangible but not overpowered, because as decribed above is already pretty useful.  I guess that being able to speak through them will count as their magical ability.  The book doesn't grant the power to speak with any but the exalted that it is owned by.  I will just allow these to speak all languages their owner speaks.  Given the circumstances of the story, I think ultimate messenger birds will prove to be useful on the caliber of 5 background points.

 

[Persell]

I quite honestly think that you overestimate the background quite a bit. armattan in caste book zenith has 4 points in familiar and the dangerous animal he has is a mountain lion. Not that impressive. The eclipse riding girl has a horse as her 4 points background.

 

[Persell]

 Is there a range limitation on normal familiars on sense sharing?

Yup, it's permanent Essence x 100 yards.


My vote is for you and the player to do what you think is fun. If you think that a flock of razor winged, indestructible, fighting falcons is cool (and will lend itself to lots of cool, fun play) then go with it. It's not my thing at all, and I don't really see it fitting in with 'canon' interpretations of the familiar background.


I like the idea, and it reminds me of the fun that could be had using the Abyssal Melee Charm Hundred Razor Circle, but maybe we have different ideas of what's fun.

 

[Kajata]

I'd say, if you're sticking to canon, that you're probably talking one bird that can summon its entire flock, and only one of the birds would be above average in its abilities.  However, I love the idea of the flock-familiars!  I think it's really cool!  I mean, if you've played MGS3 where there's the Cobra (possibly The Pain... I can't remember now) who has that swarm of hornets under his control?  It's awesome!


Whilst it may not suit itself to a lot of people's games, you're the ST and it's your game.  If a flock of birds fits in well as a familiar in your game, then I'd say use it.  My own take on it would be: treat it as one animal in combat.  Make one stat-set up for it and try and represent the entire "flock" on the sheet.  Then I'd give it an ability that allows you to communicate with any of the birds in your flock within a certain range.  Maybe not see through their eyes if they're really far away, but just issue orders and recieve spoken (which would only be as simple as "the man in the red jacket has left the big building") information.


I'd see it more that the familiar itself would actually be the FLOCK, not the birds themselves.  All the birds would be normal, but it's when they gather together and work in unison that makes them more powerful.


I personally have problems with the familiar background when compared with others, if you're just sticking to "impressive animals" and stuff.  I think they need to be magical in themselves, just to even things out.  Not overtly so, but just BETTER than the normal animal, like, and I hate to state this precedent , Battle-cat in He-Man.  Okay, apart from being green he wasn't that magical, but he was just stronger, tougher and smarter than your average tiger.

 

[Samiel]

I quite honestly think that you overestimate the background quite a bit. armattan in caste book zenith has 4 points in familiar and the dangerous animal he has is a mountain lion. Not that impressive. The eclipse riding girl has a horse as her 4 points background.

But that horse is a god-blood! He possibly even has charms to aid her! I'd guess there's something similar with the Lion, although it's not detailed as I recall.


I like the idea of treating it as a flock even better: Overnight, the birds can come and go, but there is always a flock of roughly the right size, and the familiar is more like an entity composed of them than the sum of their parts. Over time, the original birds might have left entirely, but there are still about 20 birds there, so the entity remains. Would it be removed from its parts, in that case, or somewhat schizophrenic as a result?


Interesting to me especially as I encountered the classic omen two days ago while zipping up the the local to get an indianl; there was a flock of hundreds of crows (really!) perched on all of the trees on the way, concentrated at the corner. You could really feel watched in a setting where the flock is a godlet or something. Never trust a raven in exalted. Always a spy.

 

[wordman]

The problem is, if you send one to Northwall, Chiaroscuro, Yu-Shan, the Underworld, etc, you can instantly communicate with a variety of powers instantly.

Since the sense-sharing range is limited, this would not happen. On the other hand, you would be able to send birds all over Creation, then have them come back and report to you, which would be useful.

If I were to make this familiar be totally non-combat... some kind of combat effect or other interesting magical ability or effect I feel is also in order, being as it is a level 5.

See previous answer.


If you really need some kind of combat effect, you can always say that with a flock of birds around him, the Exalt cannot be surprised.


Personally, I think their use as spies, Odin style, would be worthy of 5 dots without any combat advantages, and not require any rule tinkering.

 

[Dereis]

Ok thanks guys, I wasn't able to find that sense-sharing reference, so thanks for the info.  I don't think I am over-estimating the background.  A level 5 familiar is supposed to be of the same use as a level 5 manse, artifact, resources, ally, or other powerful effect.  And, the power difference between level 3 and 4 is supposed to be roughly the same as the difference between 1 and 3, the same goes for between 4 and 5. Level 5 backgrounds are extrememly powerful or magical or useful.  Also, as for the familiar dying in combat... it does say in the book that the animal draws the character's Essence to support it's own life and will not age or die until the character does.


And personally, I don't feel that having powerful PCs detracts from the game, as long as they are sufficiently challenged.

 

[Solfi]

Although the wandering hero with the Raiton companion is a bit used by now, the idea of the wandering vagrant hero, with a flock of raitons circling overhead, and perching on his shoulder is more titillating to me. It lends the hero an air of menace I find appealing.


I would probably use the "flock as an entity"-approach with HL:s for the entire flock. If you really want to be stingy about the whole "communal intelligence"-thing, just create your own breed of bird which has just that... Not an entirely unappealing concept in itself...


A raptor out of the Wyld, with classic pack-behaviour, augmented by a communal sense of self ... hmm. A birdpack with hunting behaviour more similar to landbound pack-hunters. Might be fun to do a write-up for something like that... but I digress.

 

[Jakk Bey]

There's nothing in the canon description that would disallow the flock.  The idea of one animal is to keep down the Beastmaster effect, but if you treat the flock as a single entity then you're keeping in the spirit of the Background.


A flock of ravens that follows the character is cool as hell.  Especially a flock of ravens that can communicate with you as if it spoke, can share its senses with you within 100 yards and  has the intelligence of a bright nine year old, that's just fun.  


Treat the flock effect as a special effect.  The flock can travel and bring back information.  It can attack, and give it stats equal to a decent sized critter as you would any other 5 dot familiar.  The flock takes damage, it loses members.  As it heals, it gains new members.  Call it the same spirit, something that draws the flock together, but don't make it one single critter--it's just a special effect.  It doesn't need special mechanics--save that I wouldn't allow the flock to split up--cover a lot of area when the flock lands, yes, but not split up individually, that's kind of pushing it.  It's a communal intelligence sort of situation, so let it commune and just be a spiffy effect for a single critter.  The attacks come from a collection of bites and claws.  The 'damage' done to the flock is how many birds get taken out with a single swing.  


I think folks are overthinking this.  It's just as if he had a big, nasty eagle--and give it similar stats, it's just an effect that it's a flock.  Treat it as a single entity and what it can accomplish.  Pick up a small child?  Maybe.  Fetch your clothing form across the room?  Probably, but do you really want to waste that?  Peck your rope bonds free in a jail cell?  Not a bad idea.  Drop off a scroll case of evidence with some degree of stealth?  Possible.  Distract an opponent by flying into their face and giving them a good scratching?  Definitely.  But worrying about the nature of the critter is looking too close to the actual effect.


Which is that the Solar has a cool ass familiar that can fly and be atmospheric as hell.

 

[Forn Clakes]

Just like to add that since reading this thread my recent npc Abyssal (who I have constructed all the recent Sail Charms for) has now been given a flock of bats to accompany him, but only during the night, obviously.  Can't wait to have him make an (overly-dramatic   ) appearance in the next episode.


~FC.

 

[Vanman]

Just like to add that since reading this thread my recent npc Abyssal (who I have constructed all the recent Sail Charms for) has now been given a flock of bats to accompany him, but only during the night, obviously.  Can't wait to have him make an (overly-dramatic   ) appearance in the next episode.
~FC.

You'll have to let us know how it goes....


:-)

 

[Flagg]

Just like to add that since reading this thread my recent npc Abyssal (who I have constructed all the recent Sail Charms for) has now been given a flock of bats to accompany him' date=' but only during the night, obviously.  Can't wait to have him make an (overly-dramatic   ) appearance in the next episode.[/quote']
So your Abyssal flies around with a glider fused into his body, accompanied by a swarm of bats?


How is this not Batman?





-S

 

[Vanman]

Just like to add that since reading this thread my recent npc Abyssal (who I have constructed all the recent Sail Charms for) has now been given a flock of bats to accompany him' date=' but only during the night, obviously.  Can't wait to have him make an (overly-dramatic   ) appearance in the next episode.[/quote']
So your Abyssal flies around with a glider fused into his body, accompanied by a swarm of bats?


How is this not Batman?





-S

Does that mean there's a Solar Joker out there somewhere?


:-)

 

[Forn Clakes]

Just like to add that since reading this thread my recent npc Abyssal (who I have constructed all the recent Sail Charms for) has now been given a flock of bats to accompany him' date=' but only during the night, obviously.  Can't wait to have him make an (overly-dramatic   ) appearance in the next episode.[/quote']
So your Abyssal flies around with a glider fused into his body, accompanied by a swarm of bats?


How is this not Batman?





-S

:roll:  :wink:  :twisted:


~FC.

 

[Vanman]

Just like to add that since reading this thread my recent npc Abyssal (who I have constructed all the recent Sail Charms for) has now been given a flock of bats to accompany him' date=' but only during the night, obviously.  Can't wait to have him make an (overly-dramatic   ) appearance in the next episode.[/quote']
So your Abyssal flies around with a glider fused into his body, accompanied by a swarm of bats?


How is this not Batman?





-S

If you really want to make him like Batman, give him a version of the claw weapon from the Night Caste book. Then he can swing around as well......