Fists of Iron Technique

[Haku1]

A martial arts charm, or any charm really, if it does not have the touch keyword means it can be used with a weapon or does NOT require touching with a hand or feet.


So... if it doesn't have the touch keyword, you could be using a style weapon with said charm.

 

[cyl]

Uh, yeah, but most charms with the Touch keyword have an effect when a blow hits.


Part of the why they have the keyword actually, they need to hit to produce their effect.


Doesn't have any impact on our current "problem".

 

[Haku1]

The thing is withour the touch keyword, there is no distinction between "Weapon" and "Unarmed".

 

[cyl]

Ow... okay.


Easiest way to set this is to consider the "dicepool" as the corebook says. (p.185)


No combination of charms can increase an exalt's dicepool by more than attribute+ability.


Accuracy is a dicepool, if a charm gives a +1 to the accuracy of a weapon, the Accuracy dicepool is affected, therefore it counts as capping.


So OWTB would also count, and so would GSS.

 

[Haku1]

....

 

[cyl]

Yeah I know, circling around ops:

 

[Haku1]

Congrats... you've neutered a fair number of stat enhancement charms and excellencies.... :roll:

 

[cyl]

Leaaaave meeee alooooone :mrgreen:


Seriously though,is there a cap on Damage ? I mean there should be... Str+ability ?

 

[MrMephistopheles]

I refer to exactly what I say here. Almost everything that you have said about the relationships between various charms and dice pool limits ranges between the amusingly quaint and the patently absurd, with very little falling into the range of reasonable, appropriate, or even slightly correct.

The part I quoted, you were referring to a charm, but did not name it, so yeah I was unsure about what charm you were referring to. As far as what you seem to be talking about whenever it's been asked of a charm author or the developer about a charm that enhances an attack's accuracy, the answer has been the same ie no it does not count against die cap. Like I said before, this includes the charms in discussion, as well as things like the Silver Claws charm for Lunars, and the Solar/DB/Abyssal weapon creation charms. Perhaps you can address something more specifically.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

Accuracy is a dicepool, if a charm gives a +1 to the accuracy of a weapon, the Accuracy dicepool is affected, therefore it counts as capping.

Misusing system terms like that is what causes these problems. Accuracy specifically refers to a potential bonus, penalty or nothing being added to the base die pool that is specifically listed with each sort of attack and weapon. Be it a sword, your fist, foot,club,etc.


Charms that add to an attack's Accuracy specifically and is not a general die adder doesn't count against your cap. GSS it's Abyssal Mirror, the DB version,etc do not stop you from using the First Excellency or any other die adder like that to it's full potential.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

Seriously though,is there a cap on Damage ? I mean there should be... Str+ability ?

Individual charms might have limits on how much damage they add or can add, but damage die pools have no cap.

 

[cyl]

Individual charms might have limits on how much damage they add or can add, but damage die pools have no cap.

You got a page ref with that one ?


I mean it sounds logical, but I'm having suspicions today.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

Try looking for a page number that says there's a limit on damage die pools, because you're not going to find one.

 

[Murdrak]

Main book pg. 185


Charms can increase a Lawgiver's dice pools by only an amount equal to (the relevant Attribute + Ability). No combination of Charms can increase a Solar Exalt's dice pools by more than this amount. Charms that add automatic successes or remove penalties do not count as increases to a dice pool unless otherwise stated.


pg. 242 Fists of Iron Technique enhances an unarmed Martial Arts attack, improving its Accuracy by one and its Damage by two.


In effect the charm is adding a die to to the pool you are rolling to hit and therefor under the cap. The purely mechanical benefit of a weapons accuracy bonus or an action like Aim are not charms and are not covered. Whether a charm say +dice or +accuracy you are adding dice to the pool you roll with a charm.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

Post subject: Re: Fists of Iron Technique Reply with quote


Main book pg. 185


Charms can increase a Lawgiver's dice pools by only an amount equal to (the relevant Attribute + Ability). No combination of Charms can increase a Solar Exalt's dice pools by more than this amount. Charms that add automatic successes or remove penalties do not count as increases to a dice pool unless otherwise stated.


pg. 242 Fists of Iron Technique enhances an unarmed Martial Arts attack, improving its Accuracy by one and its Damage by two.


In effect the charm is adding a die to to the pool you are rolling to hit and therefor under the cap. The purely mechanical benefit of a weapons accuracy bonus or an action like Aim are not charms and are not covered. Whether a charm say +dice or +accuracy you are adding dice to the pool you roll with a charm.

Page 373, Chart Key.


Accuracy is a specific mechanical term and not the same as adding dice in general, and in this specific case, through charm die adders.


Also keep in mind, it is not in fact raising your die pool like an excellency. It's adding to a weapon stat, this might or might not increase that pool, based on the innate accuracy(or lack there of) of the weapon you are wielding.

 

[cyl]

Well: whole Antagonists section what's the name of the total attack pool ?


Accuracy. :roll:

 

[MrMephistopheles]

And we should confuse a system term in one section with a shorthand used for random guy write ups why?


I found the question about direct DV addition on the current errata, finding answers to questions about the charms in question will be a little longer.


Oh and keep in mind, if you're arguing that add 1 die and add 1 to your attack's Accuracy means the exact same thing, it makes the specific difference in language nonsensical.

 

[wordman]

The point I thought I was making in my initial response to this post (but, rereading it, failed miserably at making) is this:


There are two reasonable ways of ruling this, and no definitive indication of which is actually "correct". So, the question becomes less "which one is correct?" and more "what ramifications are there if you rule one way or the other?" In particular, if you decide to go with the "more powerful" ruling that charm enhancements to Accuracy avoid dice caps, what does that choice do to the game?


The answer turns out to be: not much. There just aren't that many charms that change Accuracy. All the ones I found seemed slightly underpowered, so the ability to ignore dice caps a bit seemed like a good idea.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

The point I thought I was making in my initial response to this post (but, rereading it, failed miserably at making) is this:
There are two reasonable ways of ruling this, and no definitive indication of which is actually "correct". So, the question becomes less "which one is correct?" and more "what ramifications are there if you rule one way or the other?" In particular, if you decide to go with the "more powerful" ruling that charm enhancements to Accuracy avoid dice caps, what does that choice do to the game?

The question to me isn't which is correct. It's why assume that something that changes an attack's statistics is the same as a die adder, because they're not.