Exalted Conversion: From Solar to Abyssal and Vice-Versa

[Brickwall]

Okay, so here is something about the change between light and dark that has always bugged me.


To turn an Abyssal into a Solar:


The Abyssal must first realize this can happen


The Abyssal must wish this to happen


The Abyssal must undergo trials of faith and will that mortals can hardly hope to capture in song


The Abyssal must get lucky


The Abyssal must actually FIND a way to catalyze the conversion


The Abyssal must acquire the Seal of Sunny Approval


Did we mention that the Abyssal must get lucky?


This is all of the Abyssals pure uninfluenced volition (because influence makes all the rest count less)


To turn a Solar into an Abyssal:


Stick Solar in the Happy Box of Death


Wait (possibly bake yourself some evil cookies)


Done


I do not disagree that redemption should be tough, but should not the twisting and corruption of Creation's greatest heroes be a SLIGHTLY big deal? Seriously, I was not exaggerating about the evil cookies. You literally have to do nothing once they're inside a Monstrance, and it's not that hard to get someone to walk into a box once (a second time might be a bit trickier), even if they are Exalted.


Anyone have any ideas to make the Fall of Heroes, well, not so damn anticlimactic? Seriously, besides the letdown, there's no believable way for Death to lose with the numbers on their side like that.

 

[rattleingpython]

Well i think you have to look in a bit more detail on what a monstrace is.


It is a death box that is also an artifact N/A.


Also it requires a void circle necromancy spell.


Honestly I think a solars fall could be similiarly epic to an abyssals redimation its just with an artifact N/A and a void circle spell you can force the conversion.


In all honesty if an abyssal found a willing solar that could cast solar level sorcery and was willing to spend the time designing the spell. A solar level spell could be used to change an abyssal into a solar. The artifact N/A just allows you to break an unwilling creatures will.


Void Circle necromancy, and Adamant Circle Sorcery are basically designed to allow the exalt in question to do what would normaly take weeks or month or decades in mere seconds.


Maybe im making redemtion to easy but it is certinly possible.

 

[Brickwall]

1. Yes, that is making Redemption too easy. Especially since the logical outcome is that the winner of that contest is whoever can cast high-level spells more often, and it just turns into a 'zap-zap-zap-zap-zappity-zap' of mind(and Essence)-changing. And Death still wins. Besides which, like I said before, boring is bad.


2. 'Artifact N/A's do not BYPASS stories, they CAUSE them. Besides which, they're not all on the same level (the Eye of Autochthon is certainly not on par with a super-powerful warstrider). The Monstrances do not have the same power as the Exaltations themselves, as evidenced by their rather simple change (it is the fantasy equivalent of inverting the charge of a photon array). Yes, they're nasty. Yes, they are, in fact, such a huge deal that there's maybe a few hundred of them. But so are the Exaltations. And those are all the more reason for those things NOT to be so simple.

 

[Plague of Hats]

Okay, so here is something about the change between light and dark that has always bugged me.
[...]


The Abyssal must get lucky

Maybe in the course of how his personal story plays out, but forgiving the world and yourself, and shedding all that wounded despair, is not really dependent on luck.

The Abyssal must actually FIND a way to catalyze the conversion

This sounds like padding a list of complaints, to me. With something so simultaneously particular and vague, you could add several points to each of your lists.

The Abyssal must acquire the Seal of Sunny Approval

Unless it's part of the fulfillment of his personal Redemption, an Abyssal requires no such thing.

To turn a Solar into an Abyssal:
Stick Solar in the Happy Box of Death


Wait (possibly bake yourself some evil cookies)


Done

You left out the part about hoping that the Solar hasn't acquired any number of relevant Charms that make stuffing them in a monstrance an exercise in futility. Or any Charms relevant to breaking out. Or spells to either effect.

I do not disagree that redemption should be tough, but should not the twisting and corruption of Creation's greatest heroes be a SLIGHTLY big deal?

You have somehow captured one of the greatest superweapons in the universe. That is step one of your plan. Despite all that you might do to him, even if he's the weakest, most pliable Solar in the world, two of his three choices upon succumbing to the most horrific torture he's likely to face will foil your plan.

You literally have to do nothing once they're inside a Monstrance, and it's not that hard to get someone to walk into a box once (a second time might be a bit trickier), even if they are Exalted.

Right. "Here, don't mind the screeching psychic energy that tells all living things to flee and never come back. It's just a trick to keep everyone away from the candy behind all the spiked bones and moaning ghost-faces."

Anyone have any ideas to make the Fall of Heroes, well, not so damn anticlimactic?

Being trapped in a monstrance is the crowning shit a Deathlord takes on a Solar's head after what should be the Exalt's epic struggle against the depredations of the vassal of the Neverborn. It's one of the most harrowing things any being can possibly endure. A properly prepared Solar can do so with what approaches real ease, and even one who has a harder time of it can still undergo a grand struggle to get out of his situation, or make the ultimate sacrifice to keep one of the greatest weapons ever created from falling to Oblivion.

Seriously, besides the letdown, there's no believable way for Death to lose with the numbers on their side like that.

So your assertions, then, could be characterized as: a) In the end, given enough pressure, in the world of self-absorbed heroes that is Exalted, everyone will always inevitably give in to the deepest existential despair that still allows for an irrational wounded anger against all existence; b) That the fact that Abyssals are starkly at the bottom of even the Celestial power curve when out of their element does not matter. Because that's what it sounds like to me.
Regardless of all those trials "on the other side", there is no good reason to search for some balancing equivalency in these things.

 

[rattleingpython]

Brickwall to get the redemtation using just the analog spell you must:


Build an Analoge to the Monstrace for a solar exaltation which would be a N/A artifact. An incredible feat in and of itself.


Find out that a spell could possibly exist. Find a socrcerer that can cast it. Get them to create the spell. Get them to cast the spell for you. Each of those could be monumental tasks In game depends on the storyteller.


On the other hand if your a solar trying to convert deathknights you have to convince them to want conversion. How epic of a task is that to convince a being that likes what he is to give that up. To face the punishment of the neverborn at every turn. The shere feeling of nesscaity.


The creation of the first redemption is an epic task. It makes it easy after that but usually isnt that just how the world works its finding the way to a place not getting back there 80 million times thats hard.

 

[Brickwall]

For brevity's sake, you may assume that I have no contentions with any points I don't contend.


1. Yes, luck. There's the issue of not dying, the issue of not ending up destroying the world through Resonance, and the issue of managing to find ways to lose Emo Points.


2. Yes, conversion catalysis. Unless you want to rule that the Exaltation can change through sheer force of will or the Power of Love, you do need to find a way to change it (as opposed to the Deathlords, who have their Darkenator all prepped and figured out).


3. Monstrances explicitly resist all magical opening attempts (though apparently they're not exactly tough for a decent Martial Artist to break out of...assuming you're not smart enough to restrain them in any extra way). I suppose a Circle of friends would also count as providing a means of escape. They are still not exactly in need of reinforcement.


4. Capturing a Solar would certainly seem like more of an incredible task if it wasn't being performed by beings that severely outclass all but the most powerful Solars. Seriously, in my experience, a Solar seems to get captured every other week, by some means or another. If it wasn't so common, I'd probably treat it quite differently.


5. Speaking of overwhelming psychic powers...yeah, Deathlords have those too. The Mask of Winters (for example) could convince any Solar without perfect mental defenses (and, with half a mind, even them) that the Box o' Despair really IS full of candy, and that anyone who says otherwise just wants all the candy for themselves (even if he couldn't read that VGCats strip). See #4.


6. If Abyssals are supposed to be weak in Creation, I've missed it. I've played out plenty of fights with them. Two unprepared Abyssals, one with non-combat focus, can kick a full party of equally-experienced Celestials' collective ass while in Creation, with no undead. It's the same the other way 'round (Solars kicking Abyssal butt). That specific area seems to balance out, and not really affect the tides of war either way.


7. Rescuing someone from the pit of despair and Oblivion should never be as simple as putting them in a Super Happy box and shooting them with a Super Happy beam, no matter how hard it is to acquire said box and beam (and, perhaps, said someone). Like I said, the other way around should be just as non-simple.


For the last (for which I saved the best) I must quote, because I feel the phrasing is excellent.

In the end, given enough pressure, in the world of self-absorbed heroes that is Exalted, everyone will always inevitably give in to the deepest existential despair that still allows for an irrational wounded anger against all existence

Existential despair and irrational wounded anger ARISE from being self-absorbed (as one potential source). This is EXACTLY what I'm saying. If you find this point to be completely absurd in the face of what the setting seems to say about Exalted, then I can imagine why converting Solars to Abyssals might seem like more of a big deal. But the way White Wolf paints it, there's pretty much no hope left in Creation. It is about to be metaphorically raped, and the issue is trying to guess which of the fun toys doesn't have spikes to make it all the worse. Or maybe I'm reading the wrong sourcebooks.


Y'all make good points, but it still seems like the descent into Emoness is too easy. But reflecting, maybe that's how it's supposed to be. I dunno. But I'm still gonna look for ways to make it at least FEEL like a bigger thing, to make it something that, in no ways, can be summed up by "Stick Solar in Happy Box", no matter how much of a stretch one is willing to make.


...actually, now that I think of it, getting rid of a Monstrance's ability to convert Solars and leaving it up to non-Monstrance forces to convince them to switch kind of solves the whole problem.


H-uh.


Alright, issue solved, we're done here, folks. Thank you for all your hard work.

 

[cyl]

Well there is also another solution... since Lytek is actively working on that, maybe he could create, with a little help, a Happy Box of Life... and bake some good cookies ! :mrgreen:

 

[Brickwall]

Well there is also another solution... since Lytek is actively working on that, maybe he could create, with a little help, a Happy Box of Life... and bake some good cookies ! :mrgreen:

As stated above, this is a BAD solution. It makes the problem WORSE.

 

[cyl]

Not unless you consider it's the last step of the way, a facilitated mean (much like solar circle spell actually) to turn the DKs back to the light side, and not the first step towards redemption.

 

[EZahn]

You do realize that there's a system in place for redeeming Abyssals, right?


It's either in Scroll of Exalts or Scroll of Errata(Which had the thing about Lunar Mates and Resonance.)

 

[wordman]

Ignoring for a second the fact that I've been running a 1e campaign largely based on "fixing" an Abyssal for years, one thing that strikes me is that it might make "more sense" if the only choice for Abyssal redemption was "abyssal becomes mortal", rather than "abyssal become solar". Once the taint was removed from the shard, the shard will be all, "well, you fucked me up before, maybe I'll go find a better host". Not really canonical, but might be an interesting twist on the idea.

 

[MorkaisChosen]

It's an interesting way to do it, certainly, though it runs into canon on the "only death can remove an Exaltation" point. Of course, canon counts as an attack, and Glorious Storyteller Method perfectly defends against canon.

 

[cyl]

Ignoring for a second the fact that I've been running a 1e campaign largely based on "fixing" an Abyssal for years, one thing that strikes me is that it might make "more sense" if the only choice for Abyssal redemption was "abyssal becomes mortal", rather than "abyssal become solar". Once the taint was removed from the shard, the shard will be all, "well, you fucked me up before, maybe I'll go find a better host". Not really canonical, but might be an interesting twist on the idea.

Well depends, what if the DK was a corrupted solar ?!


How did you deal with the whole "soul tied to the Void" thing ?


note: IIRC there are ways in 2e for DKs to ensure that their souls will not follow the standard procedure and be consumed by the Void (I kinda remember an integrity charm or a spell...)

 

[MorkaisChosen]

Yup. Unconquered Hero's Spirit means the Abyssal goes into Lethe at death, and there are actually two spells- Rune of Sweet Passing ensures the character will become a ghost, and I can't remember the name of the one that sends them to Lethe on death.

 

[cyl]

That would be Gentle Call of Lethe.


But I don't know if this one can work on deathknights... however the integrity charm is kinda awesome in its defiance to the Neverborn !


I wonder how the Neverborn percieve the DKs trying to cheat the Void.

 

[MorkaisChosen]

That would be Gentle Call of Lethe.
But I don't know if this one can work on deathknights... however the integrity charm is kinda awesome in its defiance to the Neverborn !


I wonder how the Neverborn percieve the DKs trying to cheat the Void.

Books, yo!

[QUOTE="Manual of Exalted Power: Abyssals](Magic that determines the destination of a character's soul trumps these rules.)

[/QUOTE]
I was thinking Gentle Call was the one that sent a ghost that already existed to Lethe, but you're right.

 

[cyl]

I was thinking Gentle Call was the one that sent a ghost that already existed to Lethe, but you're right.

Actually from what I remember from the Black Treaty, there is no 100% sure way to bring a ghost back to Lethe.
There are a few spells that "force the ghost to make a wp roll", and depending on the roll they either follow the path of Lethe or Oblivion...

 

[vegetalss4]

Ignoring for a second the fact that I've been running a 1e campaign largely based on "fixing" an Abyssal for years, one thing that strikes me is that it might make "more sense" if the only choice for Abyssal redemption was "abyssal becomes mortal", rather than "abyssal become solar". Once the taint was removed from the shard, the shard will be all, "well, you fucked me up before, maybe I'll go find a better host". Not really canonical, but might be an interesting twist on the idea.

not really. it would be closer to "hey, well, now that you have spent a long time fixing me, who was fucked up before you even meet me, i'm leaving. So long sucker"


when a solar shard is made into an abyssal shard, the one that had it at the time (if any) dies.

 

[DasDom]

That is not correct. It is possible to make a Solar into an Abbyssal without killing him by sticking him into an Monstrance and breacking his will. When his will breaks, he may die(in which case his shard leaves for Yu-Shan) or he foreswears the sun and turns abbyssal.(Source: Manual of Exalted Power:The Abbyssals)

 

[wordman]

...I've been running a 1e campaign largely based on "fixing" an Abyssal for years...

How did you deal with the whole "soul tied to the Void" thing ?

Sorry, I just noticed that you asked this question.


I dealt with the "soul tied to the Void" thing in the time honored way: ignoring it complerely. Actually, I don't even know what you are talking about, so it's possible that the "soul tied to the Void" thing didn't even exist when I started this campaign (which was something like seven years ago).

 

[cyl]

(which was something like seven years ago).

Yeah... good times.