Exalted 2nd Ed: I heard a reassuring rumour

[Persell]

On http://thefreedomstone.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=309, a forum poster cites a WW ad that states "The 2nd edition of Exalted updates and streamlines the rules (without invalidating the past supplements)".


Woo!


My dialup is too... dial-uppy for me to bother downloading the text in question, so I can't comment any more than that.

 

[Arcanus Dicere]

As far as "invalidating" past supplements, the only invalidation that's occurring is the previous system.  The switch to 2ed is nothing more than a switch from one system of rules to another.  The setting, as far as has been stated, isn't changing in any real way, but may be expanded upon with future supplements such as Scavenger Lands and The Realm.  So, while the rules printed in previous books may be "invalidated" by the new system, the setting won't be and, thus, the past supplements still have merit with 2nd Edition Exalted, particularly the setting supplements.


Honestly, I never could figure out why so many people were in fear of this "invalidation."  All it is is a rules change, nothing more.  You can still use the old rules system, if you prefer it, or the new one.  And the setting is still the same.  So, what is this fear of, exactly?  I don't get it.

 

[Obsidian Soul]

The problem that I have with it is that I am afraid they will do the same thing they did to WoD to Exalted.  While the lameness of the background change was alone enough to get me to stop playing WoD, the rules change was a contributing element.

 

[Arcanus Dicere]

The problem that I have with it is that I am afraid they will do the same thing they did to WoD to Exalted.  While the lameness of the background change was alone enough to get me to stop playing WoD' date=' the rules change was a contributing element.[/quote']
Are you talking about the original WoD's change between editions, or the change between oWoD and nWoD?


I can't speak much if it's the former, as I've only ever known the Revised/3rd edition of the oWoD.  But, if it's the latter, then I don't see your point.  The nWoD games are a completely different (non-lame) setting, completely different set of rules, and - essentially - a completely different group/line of games.  Even if they're not your preference, they in no way invalidate anything from the oWoD.  Saying that they do is like saying that the show "Smallville" completely invalidates the entire history of Superman - they're two completely separate entities; they're the same in name and inspiration only.  Liking "Smallville" doesn't mean you can't also read the "Superman" comics, nor vice versa.  Playing nWoD doesn't mean you can't play oWoD and still enjoy it, nor that you have to adapt the oWoD setting to the nWoD rules (though you can) or vice versa.


White Wolf didn't do anything to the WoD games.  They just changed from one system and setting to another because they had taken the original as far is it would (and could) go.  There's no invalidation there at all, because (especially considering how many books have been released) the oWoD is a complete universe.  The only valid complaint a player of First Edition Exalted would have is if the entire setting changed, because that would mean they couldn't apply their old books to the new rules system.  That issue, however, has been resolved: there's no real setting changes being made, only rules changes.  Minor cosmetics to make the game streamlined for those who prefer to resolve dice rolls faster and to add certain twists to different areas, particularly social interaction.  None of the 1ed books are invalid in any way, except in some of their minor details.


Unless you're talking about the oWoD's three different editions and changes between them, I honestly don't get your point at all.

 

[Persell]

I've been in the inside of the game industry enough to figure out this consumer effect that happens when games switch to a new edition.


I've bought all the Exalted books, and even have a few duplicates of hard backs. My friends are of a similar nature. We have invested not only time and money, but also a personal interest in the game. We like the way Exalted is right now, we don't have any serious problems with the game, and we don't the end to come.


Regardless of wether or not the new 2 Ed, stuff is usable with the old, the mechanics will change, and that DOES change things, alot. We don't know if this new system will be good or bad, we have something now that's good, why fix what we consider to not be broken?


The other fear is this, if we don't like 2 Ed, at all, then our series of Exalted is over. Oh sure, we can still play, but the game is over. I have customer come in saying things like "Well, I only 2n Edition D&D!" and they spend their time roaming our used section with their faint glimmer of hope that they'll find the book that's missing from their collection. The same can be said for WoD. My opinion is that Vampire is still exactly the same, but Mage and Werewolf are completely different, to the point they shouldn't even have the same title. Look at the systems, would you want a version of Exalted where the only difference between a daiklave and a grand daiklave is the former is +2 to hit/damage and the latter is +3 to hit/damage? I wouldn't, that takes away from it in my opinion.


Ultimtely I don't think it's about money, though some use it as a crutch. It's about the end of an era for us. Will the next be better? We don't know. None of us are playtesters. None of us have seen trial rules. We all sit in the dark. Waiting. Fearing that what we have come to love is none gone. Lifeless. Finished.

 

[memesis]

We like the way Exalted is right now, we don't have any serious problems with the game, and we don't the end to come.
Regardless of wether or not the new 2 Ed, stuff is usable with the old, the mechanics will change, and that DOES change things, alot. We don't know if this new system will be good or bad, we have something now that's good, why fix what we consider to not be broken?

This is not a statement you can make unopposed.  Many, many players (myself included) do think that there are weaknesses in the current ruleset.  While I love Exalted, I can see weak points that it has - mostly stemming from people arguing about definitions of things like "action", and rulings on social interactions.  I don't think Exalted is "broken" in the sense that you can't play it effectively without house-ruling the core to a noticeable degree (D&D very much is broken in this regard), but I would like to see a more organized system in place.

 

[Forn Clakes]

 I don't think Exalted is "broken" in the sense that you can't play it effectively without house-ruling the core to a noticeable degree (D&D very much is broken in this regard), but I would like to see a more organized system in place.

Very much in agreement.  


I love this game, this method of fantasy escapism and, despite having initial doubts over the changes, a more organised approach to certain issues, where rules have been streamlined, can only be a bonus as i see it.


~FC.

 

[Jakk Bey]

Old Skool AD&D yes. d20 re-vamp, not so much. One of the best redesigns for a game done so far. Consistant with the feel of the old game, but with radical and good changes, both to streamline, and to make things consistant.  While I don't play a lot of d20, I do pick up their books fair often, because the folks at WotC made good decisions for the game franchise.  It's consistant and solid--be it running something from Fantasy to a Futures game, or anything in between. The system is more solid than dang near anything on the market, and easily one of the most consistant for how rules can be applied.  From a game design point of view, the crew at WotC did a bang up job.

 

[Persell]

Smallville is entirely different from Superman.  This is a good analagy of the fear that some may have.  Sure, one is loosely based off the other, but they are by no means compatable.  Furthermore, one has to invalidate the other, because both cannot be correct when discussing the past of Superman.  Unfortunately, I don't see this analagy as relevant for Exalted, (provided the setting does not change as is expected).


I think the point made the Exalted as it is, is now over, is a very good one.  WW is not going to continue releasing books for our current edition of Exalted.  Sure, the setting may be expanded upon by new releases for 2nd ed, but any rules there in will not be truely relevant, or even adaptable.  Furthermore, no one likes the idea of spending hundreds of dollars on books that his group enjoys playing, only to have all of them made obsolete because the group wants to switch editions.  I know that I would sooner buy new books to accomodate to a group of good friends (and good times) than search for a new group out of convinience, but I am not thrilled of the prospect of buying everything again.  


I only hope that WW will take after Palladium and release a rules conversion book so the old books can easily be updated for the new edition, so those of us with the older books can play with either rule-set.  (of course some wikian will probably make the conversion if WW doesn't but something canon/official would be nice)

 

[Arcanus Dicere]

Smallville is entirely different from Superman.  This is a good analagy of the fear that some may have.  Sure, one is loosely based off the other, but they are by no means compatable.  Furthermore, one has to invalidate the other, because both cannot be correct when discussing the past of Superman.  Unfortunately, I don't see this analagy as relevant for Exalted, (provided the setting does not change as is expected).

Really, it was more an analogy regarding oWoD/nWoD, not Exalted.  The analogy was simply made to draw a comparison, that the two are wholly separate and one shouldn't be regarded as "invalidating" the other in any real way, because they can be taken separately (even if you take both), even though you can't take them together.

I think the point made the Exalted as it is, is now over, is a very good one.  WW is not going to continue releasing books for our current edition of Exalted.  Sure, the setting may be expanded upon by new releases for 2nd ed, but any rules there in will not be truely relevant, or even adaptable.

I agree, to an extent, but hear me out: all that can be expected from continuing on with 1ed is setting books, and maybe a fatsplat on the Infernals.  That's exactly what we're getting with 2ed, minus the updated fatsplats.  The new setting info for 2ed can be integrated into 1ed very easily, just as the 1ed setting info can be integrated into 2ed very easily.  And tell me how the rules won't be adaptable.  If you see character stats for a DB antagonist you like that are written in 2edspeak, then just recreate the character with 1ed rules.  If you see a nasty Artifact weapon that you want to use in your 1ed campaign, realign the stats (mainly, just Speed/Reach, I'd imagine) to adapt it for use with the 1ed rules.  It's only unadaptable if you're not willing to put in the smidgen of effort it takes to adapt it.

Furthermore, no one likes the idea of spending hundreds of dollars on books that his group enjoys playing, only to have all of them made obsolete because the group wants to switch editions.  I know that I would sooner buy new books to accomodate to a group of good friends (and good times) than search for a new group out of convinience, but I am not thrilled of the prospect of buying everything again.

Of course no one likes that idea.  I don't either.  And I also see your point: after 2ed comes out, my own group is likely going to request that we switch to the new system.  Does that mean I won't ever use 1ed again?  No.  Does that mean I have to "buy everything again"?  No, but I will buy the fatsplats at the very least, because that's all you need - all the setting info you'll ever need you already have with books like Scavenger Sons, Games of Divinity, Time of Tumult, etc.  If all your group wants is to play the new edition, remind them that they'll have to be Solars until late 2006 when the DB book is released, and then Solars/DBs until sometime in 2007 when Lunars is released, and then Solars/DBs/Lunars until late 2007/early 2008 when Abyssals is released, and then Solars/DBs/Lunars/Abyssals until 2008 when Sidereals is released.  With such a limitation held against them until almost three years from now, the prospect of playing 1ed will look more and more appealing.

I only hope that WW will take after Palladium and release a rules conversion book so the old books can easily be updated for the new edition, so those of us with the older books can play with either rule-set.  (of course some wikian will probably make the conversion if WW doesn't but something canon/official would be nice)

That'd definitely be nice, I agree.  Or, at the very least, an "Errata" conversion PDF on the WW site detailing how to convert characters/Artifacts/etc. from 1ed to 2ed.  If they really want to give something to the fans who made Exalted a hit in the first place, they'd do something like this.  We can only hope, though.

 

[Arthemis Rex]

dont get me wrong i love the game but there are a few things that needed tweaking from the original core-


first of all is the Solar anima abilities which are totally diminutive


eg twilights can spend 5 motes and soak a couple damage points while no moons can spend 5 and then subtract that from the cost of all spells for the scene


solar animas have been dwarfed by the others when they should be the strongest


then theres some charms that needed a look see- what good is observer decieving attack or moreover a combo of such charms that makes you glow like the sun


charms that are supposed to make you dissapear shouldnt make your anima explode regardless of wether you spend peripheral essense on them


by and large the rules are great but a little tweaking of the concepts that dont make any sense couldnt hurt

 

[Persell]

This is not a statement you can make unopposed.  Many, many players (myself included) do think that there are weaknesses in the current ruleset.  While I love Exalted, I can see weak points that it has - mostly stemming from people arguing about definitions of things like "action", and rulings on social interactions.  I don't think Exalted is "broken" in the sense that you can't play it effectively without house-ruling the core to a noticeable degree (D&D very much is broken in this regard), but I would like to see a more organized system in place.

When I said "We" I was particularly referrring to my group of players, not necessarily all players. And yes I do recognize that there are small problems with things here and there that house rules typically alter.

 

[Persell]

and one shouldn't be regarded as "invalidating" the other in any real way' date=' because they [i']can[/i] be taken separately (even if you take both), even though you can't take them together.

To this point, I disagree, but that is a matter of opinion.  Anyways, you're right, for the most part.  However,

If all your group wants is to play the new edition, remind them that they'll have to be Solars until late 2006 when the DB book is released, and then Solars/DBs until sometime in 2007 when Lunars is released, and then Solars/DBs/Lunars until late 2007/early 2008 when Abyssals is released, and then Solars/DBs/Lunars/Abyssals until 2008 when Sidereals is released.

All of this is spectlation, as I do not know what changes will be made (nor how different they will be).  However, say this is true, that they want to jump right into the new edition, and we need to buy these books as they come out to play it.  Then, in such and such year when the last splat is released, can we expect WW to change the rules again for a new edition?  Perhaps that is unreasonable to assume/speculate, but what happened with AD&D becoming 3rd Ed?  


Assuming that it is easily adapted, or there is some material by WW to aid us so our old splats are not mechanically obsolete for the new edition, then I would be thrilled.  


And because the flatsplats will be numerous, and are the most expensive book, I am not too interested in buying them all over again.  


At this point I need dopamine, because I lack focus and cannot remeber what else I wanted to say.

 

[StarHawk]

Hearing all your arguments make mine seem small and insignificant. I was more afraid they would move on to the 3rd age, since tecnically they have ended the age when they came out the the Autothonian book. Aside from that, I'm more eager to see the new rules since I see so many people with their "house rules" and "remaking the Lunars" that I'm tired of reading all that junk and would rather wait for WW to give us their take on how the Dawn anima effect sould be re-worked.


And then there are people out there who like it just fine. And didn't really need all the erratas and revises that have since come out. A group like that won't need to get 2nd Edition. So more power to them. That's $40 or more they get to save by only doing the one system.

 

[memesis]

When I said "We" I was particularly referrring to my group of players' date=' not necessarily all players. And yes I do recognize that there are small problems with things here and there that house rules typically alter.[/quote']
That's fair and balanced, and I appreciate the clarification.


I'm not going to tell people "stop complaining" if they're actually thinking through what 2nd Ed means for their group and their gaming experience.  But people who haven't thought it through at all also post, and it's those sorts of posts that I am particularly wary of.

 

[Persell]

tecnically they have ended the age when they came out the the Autothonian book.

It's more like they've given their players a good idea of what sort of thing might end the Age. WW is playing Exalted canon fairly light, by not providing much in the way of canonical story development. The entire Autochthonians book is optional story info, and the end of the Age stuff is extremely optional.


The bit of canon I'm really looking forward to is the return of the Empress (I'm guessing there'll be some story ideas in Infernals) - almost guaranteed to have some more Age-ending ideas.

 

[Persell]

I was more afraid they would move on to the 3rd age, since tecnically they have ended the age when they came out the the Autothonian book.

Apart from the setting and material about Alchemicals everything in that book is optional.

 

[memesis]

I was more afraid they would move on to the 3rd age' date=' since tecnically they have ended the age when they came out the the Autothonian book. [/quote']
Apart from the setting and material about Alchemicals everything in that book is optional.

Everything in every book is optional.

 

[Persell]

I believe they were referring to big A coming back and alter the world b/c the gods fucked it up. That's an optional campaign with an alternate possibility.


However, yes, anything in any book can be altered to suit ones needs.

 

[ashenphoenix]

Aside from that, I'm more eager to see the new rules since I see so many people with their "house rules" and "remaking the Lunars" that I'm tired of reading all that junk and would rather wait for WW to give us their take on how the Dawn anima effect sould be re-worked.

I think the oddest thing I've seen with regards to Exalted was when the PG came out.


About 9 months before it did, I stumbled across a wonderful page (which is bookmarked on a computer that's inaccessable at the moment). It was a detailled exploration into heroic mortals, complete with about 12 thaumaturgy paths, societies, and even hinted at the existance of heroic exalted with the inclusion of edges. About 36 hyperlinked webpages of content.


It was slightly streamlined, and pretty much repackaged into the Players Guide, with cuts obviously made for page limits.


The WW writers take their cues from the house rules that are are developed by us, the fanbase. They try to tweak them to be more streamlined and integrated, and to emphasise the ideas of the new stuff for the setting. It sucks that they don't have to give credit (due to the dark spiral licencing agreement) but it's almost got to be done to advance the rules at a decent speed.