Elemental Affinities

[Persell]

Has anyone, or is it stated anywhere, about opposing elements being more/less effective when going up against each other?


We had, in a recent session, a battle with two fire elementals that were made from molten rock.  Our Dynast decided to blast them with her "Elemental Bolt Attack: Water".  The result was rather pathetic and without lungs they didn't bother choking on seawater either.


We thought that was pretty lame, and (as she has stated) is something she certainly won't bother trying again.  Followed by a "that charm sucked."  Which in this case I agree with her.


Perhaps when using opposing elements the effects of an Elemental Lens could be brought into play, and if you have a lens you may triple the effect?


Any thoughts, ideas, flames, meatloaf recipes?

 

[Flagg]

The problem with "opposing elements" is that there is an odd number of them. Fire/Water and Air/Earth seem like obvious pairs, but what's the "opposite" of Wood?

 

[Persell]

Wood is the Element of life.  Creatures of Darkness or sprits of death, decay, and the snuffing of life could present an opposing force to it.


To clarify this is more of an idea for when the opposition is blatantly obvious like fire bolt against a snowman, or water on something that is comprised almost entirely of fire.  Not a catch all for anytime one element opposes another like two opposing Dynasts.


It seems to me that when the Essence of one element meets with another they clash (like how water Essence assists in resisting Fiery Hand Attack).

 

[Hanat-Osul]

At most, I would (as ST) represent direct elemental opposition mechanically with a stunt die or two; anything more than that and you're trying to rewrite the whole DB Charm set. There are several Charms that already incorporate elemental opposition (the Unassailable Body of _____ Charms, for example), so maybe you could use them for inspiration.


As for the example you provided: just because the elementals didn't have lungs doesn't mean you have to make them immune to the Bolt's special effect. If they're made of fire, say the water slows their movements or throws up a cloud of steam they have to look away from. Anyway, wouldn't they be more vulnerable to water and less vulnerable to fire (since they're made of it)?

 

[Persell]

While were on the topic of something involving Elemental Bolt lemme ask this too.


Simple Charms (EBA is a Simple Charm):


Can you flurry a simple charm?  For example take the dice penalty on each roll but throw two bolts in the same action.


The reason I ask is they say that the Simple Charm is your action, but using a single charm multple times is permitted even during a flurry.  I'm thinking not (because they don't list a 'rate') but I'm curious what others' opnions are.

 

[wordman]

what's the "opposite" of Wood?

Definitely fire. Yet wood is not the opposite of fire. You could use the "rock, paper, scissors" method used for these elements a la Magic: the Gathering. That is, arrange them in a pentacle such that the two elements across the way from an element are the "opposing" elements.

Can you flurry a simple charm?

No. "The character cannot take multiple actions when using a simple charm." (ex2e.182).

 

[Haku1]

You can't flurry simple charms without an extra action charm or extra action type effect.

 

[Persell]

what's the "opposite" of Wood?

Definitely fire. Yet wood is not the opposite of fire.

While I generally agree with you here. You could easily see other elements oppose wood and different pan elemental styles give good descriptions of this. It entirely depends which aspect of an element you describe.


For example


wood as in growing, opposed to earth as in stability


wood as in life, opposed to fire as in destruction


Both are viable and are supported in canon, depending on where you look.

 

[Persell]

You could use the "rock, paper, scissors" method used for these elements a la Magic: the Gathering. That is, arrange them in a pentacle such that the two elements across the way from an element are the "opposing" elements.

In the Chinese elemental arrangement, they did something very similar both in terms of elemental affinity and their opposites. I think it went something like...


Wood creates Fire (As fire burns wood)


Fire creates Earth (as ash)


Earth creates Metal (metals are housed underground)


Metal creates Water (water condenses)


Water creates Wood (wood grows when watered)


Its opposite was...I think...


Wood destroys Earth


Earth destroys Water


Water destroys Fire


Fire destroys Metal


Metal destroys Wood


If we wanted to do this with Exalted, I would suggest


Wood destroys Earth (as roots crack and break up the ground)


Earth destroys Air (As they are opposite in a Heaven/Earth dichotemy)


Air destroys Water (Air represents cold, and cold freezes and halts mercurial water)


Water destroys Fire (obvious)


Fire destroys Wood (again, obvious)


Just an idea, if you were going for something like that

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

The later bit is pretty much supported by the weaknesses of the DB Charm Unassaiable Body of (Element) Defense...considering those are the specific elements which bypass each element.

 

[Persell]

The later bit is pretty much supported by the weaknesses of the DB Charm Unassaiable Body of (Element) Defense...considering those are the specific elements which bypass each element.

And by the fivefold shade palm style, too, me thinks.

 

[Persell]

You can't flurry simple charms without an extra action charm or extra action type effect.

While everyone was doing character updates the other night I was flipping through The Core and glanced over the actual rule (which I was looking for and couldn't find earlier), so I ended up answering my own question heh.  But thanks for the assist.   ops:


Oh, and all this stuff has really helped as far as some guide lines if I want to maybe eyeball an effect or add a bit of a damage bonus for well thought out stunts later.  


I have two new players to Exalted and they are filled with the typical newbie questions of "can I do this with a charm?"  and my favorite of all time "well why not?  That doesn't make sense...".  For the most part I'm able to answer 90% of what they toss at me but they've been getting me with a few questions that have left me stumped simply because I've never really considered it from their angle before.


Man, I love new players, it's like a refresher on the rules  I've forgotten and a completely fresh set of ideas coming my way.


Thanks a lot to everyone!

 

[Persell]

Air destroys Water (Air represents cold, and cold freezes and halts mercurial water)

I loved the idea, but one thing that has always got my goat with Exalted is Air and Water...


In Exalted 'Air' is cold.  So when you learn the Air Dragon Style you toss lightning bolts.  Where did the mighty power of cold run off to?


In Exalted Water is mercurial.  So when you learn the Water Dragon Style you learn to scream really loud.  Why are you shouting with the force of a thunderclap?


I've never understood this but hey, who cares, I play a Solar and can parry a mountain with my Mr. Winky.


As far as elements we've always associated (as far as attack effects) Water with cold (the depth of the ocean are a cold and frigid place) and Air with lightning and electricity.  Air is really the only element that can consistently say it generates an electrical effect like lighting from storms and such.  I felt the power of storms and weather was greatly over looked in Exalted when it comes to the classification of elemental properties.


For Elemental Bolt (Water) the tick penalty comes from the numbing cold that washed over a person (it slows ya down a bit while you shake it off) OR the coughing from sea water, depending on the effect Dynast chooses.


For Elemental Bolt (Air) the dice penalty is a result of muscle relaxation and numbness from a strong electrical current OR the buffeting of air.  (And who hasn't wanted to pull off a lil Raiden action once or twice with their Immaculate?  Heh.)


I welcome opinions.

 

[Solfi]

I've never understood this but hey, who cares, I play a Solar and can parry a mountain with my Mr. Winky.

sig-worthy!

 

[Ned]

I would say you should go with bonus stunt dice rather than trying to make a rock paper scissors system, simply because each element can be weaker or stronger at different situations. There's simply too many combinations, most of which can vary between elemental, to make a fair rock-paper-scissors system.


For example: A coldness type air bolt can douse a flame elemental, but an electrical type one wouldn't get a bonus while a wind type one could make it stronger.

For Elemental Bolt (Air) the dice penalty is a result of muscle relaxation and numbness from a strong electrical current OR the buffeting of air.  (And who hasn't wanted to pull off a lil Raiden action once or twice with their Immaculate?  Heh.)

My old air dragonblood had an electrical anima. Well, it was really a huge storm so a combination of wind, strong rain and lightning made up his anima effects.