Moonsilver
Member
I have some concerns about the power level of Ebon Shadow style p. 92, which seems to have rather a lot of “avoid the normal balancing rules attacksâ€
Ebon Shadow Style
- Thread starter Moonsilver
- Start date
Are these your interpretations of these charms? or how they're written in SotM? I've not got my book with me, as I'm in the University's library, so I can't check.
As far as power level of the charms you listed, they sound fine considering some charms in Celestial MA styles can basically rip someone in half in a single blow. I personally really like the feel of Ebon Shadow style, especially for an assassin or spy type character.
As to your "can't use Simple charms in a Flurry" thats not right. Unless I'm mistaken on my interpretation of the rules (wouldn't be the first time) using the Simple charm would just be part of the Flurry. You don't Flurry just to attack ya know.
example: Activate Ebon Shadow Style (Simple Charm), attack at -2 dice with any benefits of the from charm.
At least I'm fairly certain thats how its supposed to work.
As far as power level of the charms you listed, they sound fine considering some charms in Celestial MA styles can basically rip someone in half in a single blow. I personally really like the feel of Ebon Shadow style, especially for an assassin or spy type character.
As to your "can't use Simple charms in a Flurry" thats not right. Unless I'm mistaken on my interpretation of the rules (wouldn't be the first time) using the Simple charm would just be part of the Flurry. You don't Flurry just to attack ya know.
example: Activate Ebon Shadow Style (Simple Charm), attack at -2 dice with any benefits of the from charm.
At least I'm fairly certain thats how its supposed to work.
Moonsilver
Member
"The character cannot take multiple actions while using a simple Charm."
2e Core p.182.
If you already had it activated I am sure it would still count though. So any Simple Charm lasting a number of ticks, actions or a scene would still be in effect.
2e Core p.182.
If you already had it activated I am sure it would still count though. So any Simple Charm lasting a number of ticks, actions or a scene would still be in effect.
Form charms are complex things, involving a lot of movements such as striking chakra points and intricate gestures realigning the flow of Essence in an Obvious show of power. Â Even in real life martial arts, adopting a "form stance" can be a lengthy affair, relative to how fast their attacks normally are. Â Given this, I think I understand the restrictions on it.
Which is one of the nice things about 2E rules.
1) You at least get your base DV even when using a simple charm, minus the simple charm use and other modifiers. Â Granted, you probably still would like some reflexive charms in a combo to be sure, but even without, you have something.
2) Moving is reflexive. Â Even if your ST rules you can't move in the tick of activation, you can move in the following ticks. Â Okay, not if he rules that out too, but then it's a little silly, IMHO.
1) You at least get your base DV even when using a simple charm, minus the simple charm use and other modifiers. Â Granted, you probably still would like some reflexive charms in a combo to be sure, but even without, you have something.
2) Moving is reflexive. Â Even if your ST rules you can't move in the tick of activation, you can move in the following ticks. Â Okay, not if he rules that out too, but then it's a little silly, IMHO.
Moonsilver
Member
Here’s another one for you:
Distracting Finger-Gesture Technique: (2m, Reflexive) The party are up against the Big Bad Guy at the end of the Scenario. Our Ebon Shadow guy just keeps giving the finger, maybe with a flurry attack. Big Bad Guy will have half the actions he would normally get in a fight and cannot flurry. The rest of the gang paste him.
Once again no defence against this. This is my concern with the style, no defence works against their attacks. Comparing it to other Celestial styles, yes they can do more damage, but an Exalted has layers of protection against such attacks. But none against Ebon Shadow.
Distracting Finger-Gesture Technique: (2m, Reflexive) The party are up against the Big Bad Guy at the end of the Scenario. Our Ebon Shadow guy just keeps giving the finger, maybe with a flurry attack. Big Bad Guy will have half the actions he would normally get in a fight and cannot flurry. The rest of the gang paste him.
Once again no defence against this. This is my concern with the style, no defence works against their attacks. Comparing it to other Celestial styles, yes they can do more damage, but an Exalted has layers of protection against such attacks. But none against Ebon Shadow.
Dracogryff
One Thousand Club
Well, anything that allows you to ignore or negate crippling effects will null this charm out, so, balanced, IMO. *shrugs* It would also be two speed six actions to accomplish this, or comboing it with an extra action charm. You also can't flurry it with other stuff, so you can only get one sneaky attack in easily.Moonsilver said:
Again, anything that lets you ignore crippling effects will negate this one. *shrugs* Makr sure you have a charm or something that does so, and it's useless.Moonsilver said:
Hmm. I've seen worse, I think. I'm also not sure you get persistent charms, since it states that you must defend against it with reflexive charms, and you can't even do that (unless they specifically work against attacks you're unaware of) if you fail the Wits + Awareness roll. Since I think perfect defenses are reflexive, so long as you can make the roll, you can perfect it away, or otherwise negate it...and hopping defenses will negate a flurry attempt completely. And all the willpower expenditure will become expensive fast unless you're sure you can successfully pull it off. Against someone with a lousy Wits + Awareness pool, yeah, it might be nasty, but otherwise...Moonsilver said:
Discussion about this charm can be found here. Or here. Though the second is basically a summary of the first discussion.Moonsilver said:
To summarize again, it's not stackable, it's not comboable (so you can't use anything else in the same action as it), it does not prevent the use of charms, so you can use counterattack comboes from hell against people who attack you still, or extra action comboes of doom on your action....so you can't flurry. Doesn't stop you from making multiple attacks.
These are just my opinions, though, and I could be mistaken on some of them...but I don't see it as broken or anything.
Dracogryff
One Thousand Club
WEll, if you're foolish enough to not combo defenses with your offenses or such...well, then you deserve what you get, IMO.
Ledaal Kajiri
Two Thousand Club
If that's the case...they should be using combos, unless they are lucky and are a Dragonblooded or Spirit, and so can defend themself without them. Non-reflexive charms are something to use very carefully indeed if you lack combos...whether your opponent is a practitioner of Ebon Shadow Style or not. At the least, the Ebon Shadow stylist you're fighting isn't using any other charms while using Distracting Finger Gesture either...compare this to say, the Water aspected version of Dragon Claw Elemental Strike, which can be comboed, and also delays one's action 3 ticks...or the Water variants of Elemental Bolt Attack, Elemental Burst Attack, Dragon Graced Weapon or Dragon-Graced Arrow. These charms all allow one to potentially delay a foe's action AND still defend one's self...or be part of an offensive combo. Distracting Finger Gesture can be useful, but if anyone attacks during the time between the user's action and their next they are caught without any Reflexive charms of their own...and any action they take is not charm enhanced either. These are rather significant limitations...and against a group trying to use Distracting Finger Gesture on all of them can eat up motes rather swiftly while limiting ones own charm options greatly. Is it useful when used carefully, certainly. But it is neither stackable, nor can it be comboed. The former keeps its effects from being excessive, and the latter makes its use something to consider carefully.
Moonsilver
Member
The house rule that I have decided to use for Distracting Finger-Gesture Technique is:
You can only use it once on the same opponent each scene. You can use it once on every opponent who can see you in the scene.
You can only use it once on the same opponent each scene. You can use it once on every opponent who can see you in the scene.
Dracogryff
One Thousand Club
IMO, that makes the charm completely useless and a speed bump to getting the form charm...but it's your game and all that.
The fact that it can't be stacked or Comboed limits it enough in my book, but if you still feel it overpowered, whatever you feel works best. If I had that as a house rule, I'd pretty much NEVER use the Charm...being unable to Combo it makes it too much of a turn waster and potentially deadly.
Are you going to limit all the other Charms that delay actions in the same fashion as this charm, then? Otherwise...it's just really unfair. Admittedly, if you don't have DBs, you won't see the other Charms that delay actions, but Distracting Finger Gesture isn't the only turn delayer out there, remember.
The fact that it can't be stacked or Comboed limits it enough in my book, but if you still feel it overpowered, whatever you feel works best. If I had that as a house rule, I'd pretty much NEVER use the Charm...being unable to Combo it makes it too much of a turn waster and potentially deadly.
Are you going to limit all the other Charms that delay actions in the same fashion as this charm, then? Otherwise...it's just really unfair. Admittedly, if you don't have DBs, you won't see the other Charms that delay actions, but Distracting Finger Gesture isn't the only turn delayer out there, remember.
Moonsilver
Member
I just have Solars and Lunars. But point taken, we will run with the house rule and see how it plays.
Though I cannot see how this makes it "dangerous". Not using it in a combo is standard rules. You flurry it with some attacks.
Though I cannot see how this makes it "dangerous". Not using it in a combo is standard rules. You flurry it with some attacks.
Dracogryff
One Thousand Club
You can't Charm enhance your attacks. That's why. You also cannot Charm enhance defenses against counterattack Charms they might use against your attack(s), or Charm enhance defenses against any other attacks that might come up before your next action.
Not necessarily significant, but certainly a very important consideration. *shrugs* I haven't actually playtested it in a 2E game, yet, but in some sample tests I did of it, it didn't seem broken as it was. I'd like to hear how it works in a game, though, if someone has...
Not necessarily significant, but certainly a very important consideration. *shrugs* I haven't actually playtested it in a 2E game, yet, but in some sample tests I did of it, it didn't seem broken as it was. I'd like to hear how it works in a game, though, if someone has...
Moonsilver
Member
Prehaps I am getting the wrong end of the stick here, but its the normal rules that say no combos, not my house rule. So if anything being able to use it less makes it less dangerous 
Also persistant defences would still be allowed for the ES user.
Also persistant defences would still be allowed for the ES user.
Haku1
Ze Hamster of Lurkdom
The trhing is your houserule basically says "you can only use this X amount of times." That in effect nerfs it.
If you want to have it be weakened to that degree... what would the point of having that charm be?
After all, you can't use it in a combo; which means you can't defend well after using it, can't counter-attack after using it, or place it with a charm-enhanced attack.
Now, you're saying it can only be used once per opponent per scene?
If you want to have it be weakened to that degree... what would the point of having that charm be?
After all, you can't use it in a combo; which means you can't defend well after using it, can't counter-attack after using it, or place it with a charm-enhanced attack.
Now, you're saying it can only be used once per opponent per scene?
Moonsilver
Member
I think the concerns raised warrant a nerf. An alternative would be to make the player roll say Dex and MA against the targets MDV.
Making an opponent delay his action is effectively stopping an action. How many Exalts using this are not going to have 4 or 5 in MA? Oh….guess what the guy who wants this in mine has a MA of 5, how odd.
So you are robbing your opponent of 5 ticks, 1 tick short of a Charm action. Extra action Charms are not as powerful as this, to deprive a opponent of actions is more powerful. There is no defence against it, there are lots of defences against someone hitting you multiple times.
I do find an element of the pro argument contradictory. People are saying how dangerous it is, how it may not be worth using. I say OK, you can only use it once a scene per opponent, surely I have just made using it less dangerous for you?
We will see how it goes in play though.
As a final note, how many of those who think it is OK have/or previously had their own characters using it?
Making an opponent delay his action is effectively stopping an action. How many Exalts using this are not going to have 4 or 5 in MA? Oh….guess what the guy who wants this in mine has a MA of 5, how odd.
So you are robbing your opponent of 5 ticks, 1 tick short of a Charm action. Extra action Charms are not as powerful as this, to deprive a opponent of actions is more powerful. There is no defence against it, there are lots of defences against someone hitting you multiple times.
I do find an element of the pro argument contradictory. People are saying how dangerous it is, how it may not be worth using. I say OK, you can only use it once a scene per opponent, surely I have just made using it less dangerous for you?
We will see how it goes in play though.
As a final note, how many of those who think it is OK have/or previously had their own characters using it?
Haku1
Ze Hamster of Lurkdom
I haven't had it in my character's selection. But I have seen it in action, and it's just not powerful enough to warrant the houserule you're deciding on. This is me deciding, not as a player, but as an ST.
With your house-rule, what exactly is the point of someone getting this charm? Other than that they NEED it to get to the rest of the tree? You're already vulnerable, but it's now going to be a one shot use charm in any fight. It's not worth the 8 or 10 XP to buy said charm.
Note that this charm can't be used multiple times on the same target at the same time, so at best, it's only slowed (at maximum 5) ticks until your DV refreshes.
With your house-rule, what exactly is the point of someone getting this charm? Other than that they NEED it to get to the rest of the tree? You're already vulnerable, but it's now going to be a one shot use charm in any fight. It's not worth the 8 or 10 XP to buy said charm.
Note that this charm can't be used multiple times on the same target at the same time, so at best, it's only slowed (at maximum 5) ticks until your DV refreshes.
Moonsilver
Member
My main concern as mentioned earlier in the thread was the gang up effect. ES guy just keeps pumping DFGT out, opponent effectively is on half normal actions, rest of team pummel him to ground.
In a one to one situation I understand what you are getting at but want to see it in action before I allow it to be used more than once. Obviously I don’t think it is going to be as naff as some think.
In a one to one situation I understand what you are getting at but want to see it in action before I allow it to be used more than once. Obviously I don’t think it is going to be as naff as some think.
Haku1
Ze Hamster of Lurkdom
Yeah... they can gang up on the target... but also, the target would get 1 tick to act on, after his action gets pushed back 5 ticks.
Also, note that being delayed isn't as great as rit would seem... the victim's DV value would still be the same, as it doesn't get lowered with the use of this charm or such.
And you'd still be able to stunt your defenses... now throw in counter-attack charms... yeah, you hit him, he hits you right back in the face.
Also, note that being delayed isn't as great as rit would seem... the victim's DV value would still be the same, as it doesn't get lowered with the use of this charm or such.
And you'd still be able to stunt your defenses... now throw in counter-attack charms... yeah, you hit him, he hits you right back in the face.
Moonsilver
Member
Moving the thread on.....
The form Charm for this style includes a plus to Join Battle. I am assuming this means the Charm can be used in the Join Battle action. Not that your form has to be already "on" for the scene before Join Battle is announced.
This takes me on to starting a scene long combat charm before battle commences. I think it OK for a player to say, "well I might get into combat here so that scene defence is being activated."
The form Charm for this style includes a plus to Join Battle. I am assuming this means the Charm can be used in the Join Battle action. Not that your form has to be already "on" for the scene before Join Battle is announced.
This takes me on to starting a scene long combat charm before battle commences. I think it OK for a player to say, "well I might get into combat here so that scene defence is being activated."
