Earthquakes and Volcanos solve everything!

[Jukashi]

So, at the dawn of humanity, Gaia told Hesiesh and Pesiap to sleep, thereby making Creation calm down and become less savage and dangerous than it had been. Since the Elemental Dragons are described as "moving" through the lines of their element's essence in Creation, one can assume this means that the essences of earth and fire became slower and less potent than once they were, which matches up with the reduction in natural disasters linked to them.


Now. Earth is the essence of stability and stasis, and is naturally abhorrent to the Wyld; the wyld can't get to the Blessed Isle, and earth can protect people in the wyld (in caves, under outcrops of rock and suchlike). Meanwhile, Fire is the element of passion, heat and motion, and is one of the certain means of ensuring a corpse doesn't produce a hungry ghost. So the element of Fire is naturally opposed to the essence of death.


So, the question is: if Gaia woke those two dragons up again, wouldn't the resurgence of Earth and Fire essence throughout Creation work to severely reduce or even eliminate both the Wyld and the shadowlands?

 

[cyl]

Well, considering the amount of chaos unleashed when the two sleepers would awake... I guess not... on the contrary.


I once thought that awakening/killing an elemental dragon could bring more death to Creation, but the only power able to shape Creation so deeply as to erase a shadowland belongs to the solar.


Fire burns, it prevents the dead from coming back to poison the living, but it doesn't erase the mark of death when it has already been applied.

 

[Jukashi]

How much destruction would it cause, though? You'd have chaos, sure, but the Exalted are there to help cushion the blow. I could see this as something the Lunars might try. Toughen people up and all that.


If we just talk about the Wyld, the books say you need human belief and perception to keep it at bay; but before Pasiap was put to sleep, there were no humans, only the much smaller numbers of Dragon Kings, and the Wyld didn't seem to be a problem. I think having the earth dragon awake could conceivably eliminate the Wyld from Creation entirely. As the ultimate expression of the essence of earth, it could even be his express duty to move around to wherever the Wyld tries to come in and keep it out.


Speaking in more general terms, all the elements are in balance with each other. Each one strengthens and checks the others. So, if Earth and Fire got stronger, you'd probably see the other three elements get a bit more powerful as well.


I guess the main question is: does Gaia as a whole, at her full power with all five dragons running around, being a primordial, actually need anyone's help to "heal" Creation, assuming she made the effort on her own part?

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Well, I dunno about that, but marking the DK bit. The others were awake then too were they not? The Primordials that is. So the Wyld wouldn't have been a huge problem anyhow, I think.

 

[Jukashi]

Yeah, but the primos wouldn't have wanted to have to fix it themselves every time some fiddle-faddle little fairy decided reality was getting on his wick. And they definitely wouldn't have liked to do patch jobs every time it started falling apart on its own. I'd say Pasiap did it until they decided to make humans to play with and told him to got to bed.

 

[cyl]

Well there are two fronts: the wyld, and the shadowlands.


About the Wyld I'm ok with Juk, freeing the earth dragon could only lead to a stronger Creation, hence exit the wyld problem.


BUT since humanity is the only fuel of the underworld, and mortals would die during the awakening of the earth dragon, there comes the second problem: shadowlands.


The only mean to erase the shadowland we are aware of is simple: cleansing solar flames. IIRC there is no other way to restore the fabric of Creation to its original shape.


Problem is, Gaia surely could do it on her own, restore Creation and protect it from the wyld and the underworld, since she's a Primordial and all, but she doesn't have the will to... big question is: why ?


The Games might be the answer, but I don't really buy it.


I think she just can't do it on her own.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Well, seeing as her other half is dead or in Malfeas, there's probably that. Remember, two of them made Creation. Cytheria might be one of the Neverborn.

 

[Flagg]

... or she could be the elusive second "rogue" Primordial, and still on the loose.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Also true...hmm.

 

[Solfi]

I dunno that I like the whole "original Elementals (or their approximations) in their awakened would lead to epic cataclysms"-bit. Seems too much the cheap "let's have a Sleeping, All-consuming Power of Doom[tm]" to me.


Also, what the hell kind of design flaw is that to include in Creation? Stewards of the elements that fuck said elements up? (I might be forgetting something basic in the backstory that very plausibly explain this, but my first opinion still stands though).

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Well, those are just the dragons, the original elementals themselves were shattered. The dragons just kind of watch things. Though, I do agree that its kind of dumb that they fuck things up royally when they're awakened.

 

[Persell]

... or she could be the elusive second "rogue" Primordial, and still on the loose.

Cytheria: She Who Lives On Grassy Knolls and Zapruder Film

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

There must have been a second spitter!

 

[TheReagent]

I actualy agree and disagree in small amount to psiap awakening kicking the wyld solid in the nuts. I mean why would the first age Lunar and Solar did not think of that, mostly because they did not have to. But the thing is this I see psiap as being a good force against the wyld but not the only force needed, The dragon can be everywhere and if the crusade of the fair folk start again the will attack from everywhere, and the further from the elemental pole of earth the dragon goes the less is supply of power will be.


On to shadowland. Gaia could heal the world but i think the god would object to that or at least the incarna i mean i't would be letting a primordial as good as she is do a major working on creation. I't might what i't take to rouse the incarna into action. but mostly Yeah if the shadowland start awakening left and right because of the rumbling of psiap moving to battle the wyld, then the gold faction is gonna have a really good argument to back themselve up.

 

[Flagg]

What I want to know is if Bureau of Destiny is making regular backups of the Loom in case someone does something really dumb like, say, deletes Nexus.

 

[Nightmare of Fallen Kings]

As far as awakening the elemental dragons goes, it would basically be the end of the world as far as humanity was concerned. Read the entry in the old Games of Divinity book on The Kukla. The Kukla is only a greater elemental dragon, and releasing him is tantamount to destroying the mortal world. Imagine the destruction an elemental dragon on a greater scale than The Kukla would cause. Sure, you MIGHT cleanse the shadowlands and wyld as a side effect, but no one would be around to appreciate it. The people that didn't die immediately in the earthquakes/tsumanis/rampaging fires/volcanic eruptions/ etc. would still have to contend with not one, but TWO elemental dragons of the highest order.

 

[Jukashi]

As far as awakening the elemental dragons goes' date=' it would basically be the end of the world as far as humanity was concerned. Read the entry in the old Games of Divinity book on The Kukla. The Kukla is only a greater elemental dragon, and releasing him is tantamount to destroying the mortal world. Imagine the destruction an elemental dragon on a greater scale than The Kukla would cause. Sure, you [i']MIGHT[/i] cleanse the shadowlands and wyld as a side effect, but no one would be around to appreciate it. The people that didn't die immediately in the earthquakes/tsumanis/rampaging fires/volcanic eruptions/ etc. would still have to contend with not one, but TWO elemental dragons of the highest order.

The Elemental Dragons (capital letters) are different elemental dragons (small letters). They wouldn't literally start charging about the place; you don't see Mela, Daana'd or Sextes Jylis running around accidentally covering Nexus in a three miles thick layer of water/snow/trees. What would happen if they were awakened would be that the geomantic flows of their element's essence would get stronger and move faster. The reason it causes destruction is because those two Dragons specifically would trigger an increased level of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions throughout Creation.

 

[cyl]

The reason it causes destruction is because those two Dragons specifically would trigger an increased level of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions throughout Creation.

Therefore creating more death and
since the only fuel of the Underworld is human death in Creation, if the fire or earth ED is to awake... it will mean more shadowlands... could be a good plan for a deathlord to awaken them


Since they are the most powerful beings in Creation, right under the Primordials, I think the Solars and Gaia are the only two "beings" able to change Creation so deeply as to erase a shadowland... maybe the Yozis would do too.


Do you think the ED would have altogether the power to unmake what Primordials did ?

 

[Nemal]

Re:

The reason it causes destruction is because those two Dragons specifically would trigger an increased level of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions throughout Creation.

Therefore creating more death and
since the only fuel of the Underworld is human death in Creation, if the fire or earth ED is to awake... it will mean more shadowlands... could be a good plan for a deathlord to awaken them


Since they are the most powerful beings in Creation, right under the Primordials, I think the Solars and Gaia are the only two "beings" able to change Creation so deeply as to erase a shadowland... maybe the Yozis would do too.


Do you think the ED would have altogether the power to unmake what Primordials did ?

Why not? Just because the Primordials made something does not make it change-proof. They've been known to make things more powerful than them before (see: Incarna), especially when it comes to a particular area of expertise. If the Earth ED was created to beat back the Wyld, it's quite possible it was more efficient at it than the Primordials ever were. In the same way, if Jukashi's right and the fire dragon were opposed to death Essence, it's also quite possible that it'd be far better at destroying shadowlands than almost any other being in Creation...

 

[Flagg]

Strictly speaking, the 5ED ARE "Primordials" in that they're Gaia.

 

[cyl]

They are the children of Gaia... whatever that means.


Gaia being the "spirit of Creation, godmother of all living creatures born in Creation", that does not make her Creation necessarily, though it is commonly assumed that she is tightly linked to it.


And Incarnaes are not more powerful beings than the Primordials as far as I remember.


The exalts are supposed to become more powerful than the Incarnae over time, but with what seems to have happened to the Maiden of Hours and her exalts, seems like the celestial will never usurp the Incarnae, since they would go crazy afterwards.

 

[Flagg]

They are the children of Gaia... whatever that means.

It means that they're her 3rd Circle souls. This is clarified in Second Edition.

 

[cyl]

Well, not be rude or anything, but I'd like to have a reference with that


I've recently read RoGD, and it never says they are her 3rd circle souls.


Because if they were, then they would have been primary targets for the deathlords (who would surely know who Gaia's souls are).


I mean, it is not like it would be easy, but it would be the best mean to make Creation fall to the underworld.

 

[Jukashi]

Because if they were, then they would have been primary targets for the deathlords (who would surely know who Gaia's souls are).
I mean, it is not like it would be easy, but it would be the best mean to make Creation fall to the underworld.

"Not easy" is right; you can't just go up and jam a daiklaive in their spine. They don't even have spines, as such. They're not just big elemental dragons, they are the elements. Hesiesh? He's not just the embodiment of fire, or the spirit of fire, or the heart of all fire. He is Fire. Every fire or flame or spark anywhere in Creation is Hesiesh. The Deathlords are badass, but they're not that badass. Oh, the Exalts in the primordial war managed to kill beings on par with them, but those primordials were "closed up" primordials. Gaia (and Autocthon and Malfeas, later on) are "opened" primordials. Their nature is different.


And even if you did, so what? You don't just knock off any old third circle soul to kill a primordial. You need to kill their fetich; kill any of the others, they can just be remade. and no-one... not even White wolf, apparently... knows who Gaia's fetich soul is.

 

[cyl]

no-one... not even White wolf, apparently... knows who Gaia's fetich soul is.

Yep, but I am quite sure the books never say the EDs are not third circle souls of Gaia. I might be wrong though.

He's not just the embodiment of fire, or the spirit of fire, or the heart of all fire. He is Fire. Every fire or flame or spark anywhere in Creation is Hesiesh.

Huh... not if you read RoGD. There are "just" the terrestrial gods responsible for maintaining the flow of essence at the elemental poles and through the dragon lines to protect Creation from the Wyld, but they are not the elements themselves... Hesiesh is not fire, the element fire exists without Hesiesh, but it is Hesiesh who slowly flows through the dragon lines of fire and maintain the elemental pole of fire... thus making fire a "living force". The element Fire exists with or without Hesiesh, Hesiesh only makes it work according to its function.
And he's asleep, so Magma doesn't burst out of volcanoes and fire doesn't devour the lands, except when it turns in his sleep


IIRC there was a time when a sixth element was proposed by the Primordials... I think that this means the Prims created the elements, then Gaia created the Elemental Dragons to maintain Creation with the elemental poles and the dragon lines, then finally the elementals were created by the incarnae. So the Elements exist without their Dragons, but the can't be functionning properly without them.