Dynamic Sorcery

[Lurker in Darkness]

Although not as bad as D&D's magic system, Sorcery in Exalted does lack a lot of flexibility, since it falls on the same restrictive definde-spells system (fortunately, it has no stupid spell-slot system).


I think there should be a system for spells made "on the fly". Something similar to Ars Magica's Spontaneous Spells. The premise is that sorcery uses a common set of components, be them symbols, gestures, objects or spoken incantations; each with a specific occult purpose.


Therefore, uniting a given set of components, in a specific way; while channeling some ammount of essence should be enough to create a spell-like effect. The problem is we lack a specific system for doing this. I guess it can range from simple cosmetic altering of given spells to entire instant-spell building. Probably based on Intelligence+Occult rules.


Any opinions?

 

[Persell]

Sorcery in Exalted is fantastically complex. I just wouldn't call anything you could do "on the fly" sorcery at all. As for the weird experimental effects you get while creating a spell, it's more narrative than rules-based.


One thing I'm wary of with modular spell systems is how... mechanical they can be. I like Exalted's whimsically-named spells, and their weird effects.


All that said, get your head around glamour sorcery for an idea of how your proposal might work in Exalted.

 

[Lurker in Darkness]

What's exactly galmour sorcery? And where can I find it? (book, page, etc.)


And, considering you can have people with Intelligence on the 5+ range, and similar sats on the Occult ability, I don't think it is THAT difficult to give a little twist to some spells on the fly.


Beisdes, I'm no proposing the player should get full-powered, safe, cost-effective effects. It should obviously involve spending lots of essence, perhaps an extra willpower point, and it should be risky and uncertain. Something fit for emergencies.


I honestly don't think it would be THAT overpowered or non-reasonable.

 

[Persell]

I think you want to look into E: Fair Folk for glamour sorcery.


See what can be done with gossamar and essence.

 

[Jakk Bey]

There is a fairly quick and easy system for creating magical effects that are customized--they're called Charms.


Sorcery isn't D&D magic. It's not meant to be. Even the simplest of spells is a delicate art.  


I like to think of Sorcery as short circuiting the usual rules of the Creation. You can call them back doors on how things normally work, and rewriting the usual flow of things.  They break the normal rules, but the price is that you have to learn an awful lot in order to do so.  Sorcery isn't Mage's magick. And I rather like that about the system.  Even the most basic of the Terrestrial Circle are standardized rituals.


Things have to be set just right. It takes at least a turn to perform even the simplest of spells.  It's not just that they're "building their power" DBZ style, but shaping and performing a ritual.  It takes even longer for Celestial Circle spells, and longer still for Solar Circle. It's not an "on the fly" kind of thing.


I like the idea of custom creating Charms on the fly much better than doing so with Sorcery. Charms are more intuitive uses of Essence, tricks and shortcuts.  Sorcery is more of a science than a talent or trick. I'd be more willing to hear a player come up with a Charm on the fly, who had the XP's to pay for the sucker, and call it "inspiration out of desperation" than I would a "fast cast" Sorcery.  


Call it the difference between  hotwiring a car, compared to redesigning the ignition system to be voice activated.  Charms are the fast casts and the short-cuts already in place--simple, direct, and narrow in focus. Sorcery is the long, arduously studied applications of mystical knowledge.


If you insist on having characters try to "fast cast" new Sorceries, at least give them some very serious consequences for failure--even at the Terrestrial level.  You try to come up with a new spell, and fail, you can release a backlash, call down Pattern Spiders, open a rift to allow Blood Apes and worse all over the character, even get sucked into a rift between the Creation and Elsewhere because they are mucking around with the very fabric of the Creation.


There are reasons that there are procedures and huge manuals for operating big equipment safely. Ignoring those procedures and protocols can be dangerous. The Creation is an awfully big piece of equipment...

 

[memesis]

Although not as bad as D&D's magic system' date=' Sorcery in Exalted does lack a lot of flexibility, since it falls on the same restrictive definde-spells system (fortunately, it has no stupid spell-slot system).[/quote']
This is intentional on the part of the designers.  I guess if you want to call it "restrictive", you can, because Exalts trade massive power for restrictions on that power.

I think there should be a system for spells made "on the fly". Something similar to Ars Magica's Spontaneous Spells. The premise is that sorcery uses a common set of components' date=' be them symbols, gestures, objects or spoken incantations; each with a specific occult purpose. [/quote']
Legos use common sets of components.  Legos are snap-together pieces that let you build fancy structures. Building with Legos is pretty forgiving, unless you are 2 years old and happen to swallow one, and many people have built many impressive things with Legos.


Now let's look at something else.


Transistor radios and computers are both built on a common set of components: logic gates, diodes, capacitors, and so forth.  You can build a transistor radio in your garage in a short amount of time.  You cannot do the same with a computer, unless by "computer" you mean "electronic abacus".  Further, even a tiny flaw in either one can render the whole design useless, or worse, blow up in your face.


If you would like on-the-fly sorcery, go haul out your Mage book, or buy the new one, and start copying mechanics over.  They should be somewhat compatible.  But it's not like this is a glaring deficiency in Exalted which many people are rushing out to correct.  It reinforces the game's intended feel (which you of course are welcome to change), it keeps sorcery a complex and demanding art, and it means that sorcerers are not themselves gods, but that they can ally with gods as needed.

 

[Lurker in Darkness]

Oh, dang... Let's start:


First of all, I'm quite familiar with mage, but thanks for the suggestion Jakk. Also, M:tA's system for magic is probably one of the best ones I've ever seen. It is fairly simple, quite malleable, and very true to the scenario.


Secondly, even standard Solar casting time is quite short. It takes four shaping turns, which means 12 seconds of incantation. It's quite a short time... And not much to memorize, in terms of spoken incantations and somatic foci. (and I'm quite aware it is not DBZ's power building, but thanks for the tip)


Which is more complicated: Hermetic Magic or Sorcery? I would say it's a draw. Therefore, if Hermetic Mages can (and do) create spells on the fly, whay can't an Exalt? Especially given that they can have super-human intelligence and occult ratings? (You would do well to remember Ars Magica began as a WW game, and WITH spontaneous spells).


Yeah, I intended on making it difficult and risky. Probably something like, on a marginal failure a dangerous twisted effect manifesting, on a regular failure complete backlash, and on a botch, something like double backlash (instant-crispy sorcerer).


Ok, Sorcery is a science. I completely agree with you. However, it's not as if a mathematician couldn't, given an equation, change remove and add some bits, to get a different result. If it is a science, it has some predictability, and therefore it can be manipulated through manipulation of it's composing elements. Same as with a chemical reaction: you change the circumstances, enviroment and proportion of substances, and you can have a different reaction.


Look, what I'm trying to do is not boost sorcerers' powers even more. I'm just trying to make a reasonable and logical change to the game. If an Exalted is able to toy with symbols and syllables during the creation of the spell, he's also able to do this out of the laboratory, with much greater risks, however.


Let me exemplify what I'm saying: Consider the spell "Blood Lash". At a given point of the casting, the sorcerer is going to say some something mystical that makes his blood take the shape of a whip, right? Let's say it is a group of 30 syllables. If he changes those parts, giving them a more defense oriented tang, he might end up with a shield (if he's very competent), a pool of blood (if he's a regular sorcerer), or he might end up blowing all of his blood out of his veins (if he's a crappy occultist).


All in all, I honestly don't think it is unbalanced or anything. Besides, I don't really care about game balance... Real world's not quite fair itself... (far from it, actually)

 

[Jakk Bey]

And given time, your Blood Lash Sorcerer could change those lines, within a controlled environment, and with some study he could do that, and come up with a new spell. Heck, with a template already in place, I'd cut down the research time a bit.


When things are getting chucked at you, and you only have a few seconds to come up with the right changes, hoping to alter a piece of well researched Sorcery I would call very dangerous.


You want to turn your Sorcerers into mystic MacGuevers, that's fine. I just don't think that its thematically appropriate to how Sorcery is presented in Exalted.


It's kind of like trying to extemporize new lines to the Canterbury Tales, in the original Middle English, and hope that you're going to be as witty and entertaining in a dead language. While people are throwing things at you. Pointy things. Very sharp, pointy things. And your life depends on you being funny, and correct in your delivery. Not just while they throw pointy things, but afterward, while the Judge from the USSR sits on the panal, and you know he's not going to like anything you do anyway...

 

[memesis]

Which is more complicated: Hermetic Magic or Sorcery? I would say it's a draw.

This is the assumption that controls whether or not dynamic magic is a good idea in your world.  I'm not familiar with Ars Magica, but I am familiar with Mage, and Mage's assumption was that the very fabric of the universe responded to human will, was READY to change for human beings who wanted it badly enough, and that belief and training were sufficient.  Exalted's assumption is that the world isn't like that after all, that there are occult principles on which things work and that sorcerers need to know those principles and work around them.  This, I would argue, makes Exalted sorcery a much more difficult exercise.  You can't just want something and use the right foci to convince your own higher soul it's okay.  You actually need a plan.


I'm not here to tell you "don't do this in your game", because you're not here to listen to that.  But it IS important to keep this distinction in mind, because if you DO care about game balance at all, it matters, and if you DON'T care, then you're wasting your time coming to us for opinions.  If you really didn't care, your rules would consist of "roll Essence to do what you want, I set the difficulty accordingly".


Here's where game balance matters, and why sorcery is priced the way it is.


Let's say Rosh the Triumphant knows Blood Lash.  Okay, he's working in a world where dynamic sorcery works, he can do different things.  So he can make a blood shield.  Or a blood sword.  Maybe he can start working with spilled blood from his enemies instead of his own.  You must define a point past which he CANNOT go, otherwise for 8 XP he just became a Blood Elemental and will start to more and more resemble a DC superhero ("I can fly by mingling my blood's Essence with the air").


If this sounds extreme, that's because it is.  Most sane GMs would stop this much sooner, and this is where the real problem begins, because no two GMs will likely agree on WHERE this should stop.  Most Mage games have somewhat subjective views of power, but this isn't an issue because in most Mage games, EVERYONE is a Mage.  If dynamic sorcery looks too attractive, pretty soon everyone is going to start using it, or they will feel left out.

 

[Silence In Daylight]

Once you open the door to on-the-fly powers, it's hard to draw a line. Why not charms? They're a way of channeling essence into an effect--why can't the Essence wielder adjust the essence channeling on the fly? Or anima powers?


 I'm not saying that this is a bad idea; in fact, it sounds quite entertaining. However, gaming under such conditions would require a large number of ground rules. Frankly, I'd prefer running shaping combat (with all its brain-warping complexity) over STing that.

 

[Lurker in Darkness]

Thing is, (fortunately) I don't have much of a power gamer group, so game balance's not an issue. My players always try using whichever concept they find most entertaining, even if its a lowly terrestrial. Besides I always try to go with what seems more logical to the world in question. In this case, if there are metaphysical rules to Creation, and they can be used and tinkered with to create potent effects, it is only reasonable that spells might be slightly altered if there is need.


Also, avoiding the abbuse of dynamic sorcery is precisely the purpose of having a strict system for it.


Again, I'm not saying it is something to be done all the time. It's supposed to be used in emergencies (like spontaneous magic in Ars Magica). And it isn't easy, cheap or safe. On the contrary, it should be dangerous, costly and risky.


In the given example, I would say the sorcerer would have to make some tests, in order to make the right alterations. Maybe starting with a Intelligence+occult, to check how expansive his repertoaire is; then proceding to a wits+occult (if it is made on the heat of battle or any stressful situation), or an intelligence+occult (if it is made with more time), in order to actually make the alterations. Then, the last roll is a dexterity+occult (or maybe wits+occult), in order to see if the sorcerer actually did the different steps correctly (because he's not used to the different ritual). Each roll would take at least one turn, with the last one being made DURING the casting. Some extra stuff should be considered too, like an increased casting time (dependant on the scope of the changes made) and increased essence and willpower costs (also dependant on the scope of the changes). Also, failing in the two last rolls should have catastrophic results, and a botch should be nearly lethal.


Considering this set of obstacles, I honestly don't think it would e that bad. What I need help with is defining the scopes of the changes, so that difficulty for rolls and extra costs can be defined accordingly.

This is the assumption that controls whether or not dynamic magic is a good idea in your world.  I'm not familiar with Ars Magica, but I am familiar with Mage, and Mage's assumption was that the very fabric of the universe responded to human will, was READY to change for human beings who wanted it badly enough, and that belief and training were sufficient.  Exalted's assumption is that the world isn't like that after all, that there are occult principles on which things work and that sorcerers need to know those principles and work around them.  This, I would argue, makes Exalted sorcery a much more difficult exercise.  You can't just want something and use the right foci to convince your own higher soul it's okay.  You actually need a plan.

Okay... Sounds like you don't like Mage too much. Actually, IMHO, Mage's metaphysics for magic is the best in all RPGs, it's simple, elegant and richly metaphorical. It's closer to philosophy, whereas Exalted's Sorcery is closer to science. There's no greater purpose or philosophical/metaphysical questioning, and no quest for greater truths and wisdom; only experimentation, pure and simple.


Now, onto Ars Magica. It's quite a nice game, and it's also the game from which M:tA sprang from. In this game, there's no avatar/Daimôn/strange-spiritual-thing-that-grants-you-magick, and Hermetic magic is both a science and an art (THE Art, actually). And it is similar (including in complexity) to Mage's Hermetic Magic, with the exception that all that Enochian gibberish is actually necessary. Its magic system is also interesting, and worth taking a look, even if you have to download it on pdf.

Once you open the door to on-the-fly powers' date=' it's hard to draw a line. Why not charms? They're a way of channeling essence into an effect--why can't the Essence wielder adjust the essence channeling on the fly? Or anima powers?[/quote']
That does sound interesting! I will also make an attempt at this.

 

[Jakk Bey]

I don't think that memesis was saying that he disliked the Mage system, as much as there are fundamental differences in the metaphysics between the games.


And to be honest, since the games can be inter-related, if you play Exalted as the precursor to the WoD, it makes sense.


The WoD is different than the Age of Sorrows. A lot has changed, and if your players are more interested in that style of play, then perhaps a change in game is in order.


Or you can alter the world to accomodate them. I just think that it violates some of the basic premises that the game world is founded on.


The quest for philosophical truth in Mage is also based on the idea that the Gods don't reveal themselves. When you can talk to members of the Celestial Bureacracy, and get answers from the critters that built and maintain the Creation, and get solid answers at that, you don't need the kind of intensive soul searching.


They're entirely different games.


Mage runs on ideas people creating their own reality, of a shared net of realities that interact. Exalted is a game of finding your place and carving out your name. It's about roles and who fits into where.  That roles are defined and rigid is an integral part of the game.  


Mage is a game about people finding and touching on their own divinity, in part. Of realizing that they are the reason that things move and work.


Exalted is a game about people finding their place and their roles in history and the scheme of things. The hierarchy is there, and in place, and the question isn't who is responsible, but where you fit in the grand scheme. It's about accepting roles and responsibility, not a quest for enlightenment, because in Exalted, you can talk to the Gods themselves--or the imprisoned Primordials if you so desire.


That the magic systems are different, and the metaphysics is different is no surprise there.  They are different games, with different concepts at their base.  It's not that one is better than the other, they are just different.


That Gods can't understand the Blossoming of the Perfected Lotus because they are rooted into their roles in the Creation is a great opportunity, and a precursor to the grand metaphysics of Mage.


Mage also bases their premise on metaphysics that anyone can Awaken. Not so much in Exalted. Exalted is about roles in the cosmic scheme of things, and that's important to remember. Different core concepts.

 

[Persell]

Here's an idea: Bo3C or S&S has rules for creating new spells. They involve some rolls to do the spell correctly the first time, and have various horrible effects for failure.


Why not modify them to allow spell-creation to happen in-game? So maybe early in the process of inventing a new spell, you roll at an even higher difficulty, and each time you succeed, the difficulty comes down a bit? Until you roll at the official difficulty and then after that (and after the proper amount of training time) you know the spell.

 

[Silence In Daylight]

From a mechanics point of view, doesn't this just allow the sorcerer to avoid spending xp on spells (especially if the power of the spell isn't number-of-successes-dependent)?

 

[Lurker in Darkness]

Yep, it does, I guess.


Thats why I would do things differently. If a character becomes used to making a certain alteration to one of his spells, he wouldn't have to roll to design the changes again, and wouldn't even need to roll to see if he performed the steps correctly. However, it would be not quite cost-effective, as the player would have to use up great quantities of essence each time he cast the morphed spell, which should discourage most players.


If the altered spell turns out to be useful, the sorcerer can just go to his lab and create a more efficient and safe spell (perfecting and correcting the on-the-fly formula); and with a slight difficulty and time discount, since he's been dealing with it for quite some time. And, of course, he would have to pay the usual cost for a new spell.

 

[Jakk Bey]

If you're bound and determined to do this then, perhaps increased Willpower cost might also be in order, to show the measure of concentration that it takes to control the altered lines. You are talking about mucking about with the very rules to the Creation, after all. It's not like dusting crops there farmboy...

 

[Lurker in Darkness]

If you're bound and determined to do this then' date=' perhaps increased Willpower cost might also be in order, to show the measure of concentration that it takes to control the altered lines. You are talking about mucking about with the very rules to the Creation, after all. It's not like dusting crops there farmboy...[/quote']
Yeah. I thought about that. About 1 extra willpower by default, and more if he makes drastic changes.

 

[Persell]

From a mechanics point of view' date=' doesn't this just allow the sorcerer to avoid spending xp on spells (especially if the power of the spell isn't number-of-successes-dependent)?[/quote']
I'm not sure if you're refrerring to my post or not... I didn't mean to waive the XP cost, nor did I intend to suggest that in any way. I didn't mention it because I didn't want to make any changes, not because I don't think it should be in there.


To clarify some more, I don't envisage my idea as being a replacement for the normal spell-creation rules. They would still take all that research and experimentation. In fact, the rules I suggest are precisely to represent the experimentation.


I know it's not exactly what the Lurker is looking for; I'm attempting to shoehorn the idea into canon. "Sorcery is complex" is an understatement, though of course house rules on that are none of my business.

 

[Silence In Daylight]

From a mechanics point of view' date=' doesn't this just allow the sorcerer to avoid spending xp on spells (especially if the power of the spell isn't number-of-successes-dependent)?[/quote']
I'm not sure if you're refrerring to my post or not... I didn't mean to waive the XP cost, nor did I intend to suggest that in any way. I didn't mention it because I didn't want to make any changes, not because I don't think it should be in there.


To clarify some more, I don't envisage my idea as being a replacement for the normal spell-creation rules. They would still take all that research and experimentation. In fact, the rules I suggest are precisely to represent the experimentation.


I know it's not exactly what the Lurker is looking for; I'm attempting to shoehorn the idea into canon. "Sorcery is complex" is an understatement, though of course house rules on that are none of my business.

 But does the experimentation allow the sorcerer to cast a spell he has not spent xp and training time on, even with a hefty difficulty on the Intelligence + Occult roll? Or is it solely a thematic element?


 My point is, what do you want the experimentation to allow the sorcerer to do?

 

[Persell]

 My point is' date=' what do you want the experimentation to allow the sorcerer to do?[/quote']
Attempt to cast a spell before the inventing time is complete. Sorry I wasn't clear.

 

[Silence In Daylight]

Then, as long as the ST stays on top of any potential twinking, it sounds like an interesting idea--good novel fodder, at any rate:


 "Chained in Stillness looked frantically at the rest of his Circle as they struggled to hold back the hordes of beastmen and their Lunar captains, their soulsteel armor and weapons a thin line of jet barely restraining a sea of fur, claws, and teeth.


 Suddenly, a gout of silver flame caught his attention. One of the whelps of Luna had started a poweful incantation, and Chained's eyes narrowed as he observed the essence patterns within the flame. Though he was an initiate of the Void Circle, he was primarily a necrosurgeon and craftsman, not a combat necromancer. Realizing that the Circle's chances of surviving this ambush would be greatly decreased should the sorcerer complete her incantation, Chained in Stillness took a deep breath before drawing on the inner depths of his soul and allowing a storm of necrotic essence to pour forth towards the Lunar."


--An attempt to pull an experimental Obsidian Countermagic

 

[ashenphoenix]

Uh, guys?


Why has no-one mentioned Astrology and Protocols?


Yes, I'm aware that it's not quite the same, but Solars/Lunars/etc are not Mage equivalents, and never were.


Siderials are.


I've given a vague thought to Alchemicals being able to pull off Astrology effects (by just talking to the Pattern Spiders directly), and that Glamour Sorcery shit is about as close as Exalted's got to Marauders running loose.


...and then there's Stunts. Which allow you to do the impossible. On the fly.


This stuff's in there already.


Read Exalted: Fair Folk, Siderials, and Alchemicals.

 

[Silence In Daylight]

But Dynamic Sorcery isn't about doing the impossible; it's about adapting something fairly cast-in-stone to a less-so form. Stunts don't quite do that.


 Take Death of Obsidian Butterflies. One can stunt the casting and the effect in order to get extra dice on the attack roll, but as written canonically, there's no way the sorcerer can transmute the spell into shards of cold iron (handy for those Fair Folk encounters), which would be potentially what Dynamic Sorcery could do for you.


 I suspect the reason why no one's brought up astrology and protocols is because they're Exalt-specific. Sorcery extends across all Exalt types. No reason why the same rationale can't be applied to both, though Siddie astrology's about as loose effects-wise as they come.

 

[ashenphoenix]

But Dynamic Sorcery isn't about doing the impossible; it's about adapting something fairly cast-in-stone to a less-so form. Stunts don't quite do that.
 Take Death of Obsidian Butterflies. One can stunt the casting and the effect in order to get extra dice on the attack roll, but as written canonically, there's no way the sorcerer can transmute the spell into shards of cold iron (handy for those Fair Folk encounters), which would be potentially what Dynamic Sorcery could do for you.

That's how you run stunts.


See, casting Death of Iron Butterflies is impossible.


If the player happened to have some iron on hand - 1d stunt bonus that fucks with glamour. 2d if they grab it from the environment, or sacrifice a cherished possession to get the iron. 3d if it's awesome.


With stunts, it's about learning how to say "yes" to your players impossible requests for the max fun.

I suspect the reason why no one's brought up astrology and protocols is because they're Exalt-specific. Sorcery extends across all Exalt types. No reason why the same rationale can't be applied to both' date=' though Siddie astrology's about as loose effects-wise as they come.[/quote']
Riiiight.


And all the Vampires and the Werewolves had access to dynamic Magic in WoD, didn't they (as used in Lurker's above example)?


Sorcery is not supposed to be dynamic.


It is supposed to be a tried and true, formulaic method of exploiting rules of existance that the Primordials built into creation (see Exalted Wiki - OriginsofSorcery and AlchemicalSorcery)


If your players want to fuck with making their effects fluid - send them on a Wyld quest to get their Graces forged. They can then perform dynamic magic to their Heart's (or lack of) content.


Now, if we're discussing streamlining this process, then fine, but we're not talking about Sorcery then.


Sorcery = fixed. formulaic.


Glamour Sorcery = mad, dynamic fun.

 

[Silence In Daylight]

But Dynamic Sorcery isn't about doing the impossible; it's about adapting something fairly cast-in-stone to a less-so form. Stunts don't quite do that.
 Take Death of Obsidian Butterflies. One can stunt the casting and the effect in order to get extra dice on the attack roll, but as written canonically, there's no way the sorcerer can transmute the spell into shards of cold iron (handy for those Fair Folk encounters), which would be potentially what Dynamic Sorcery could do for you.

That's how you run stunts.


See, casting Death of Iron Butterflies is impossible.


If the player happened to have some iron on hand - 1d stunt bonus that fucks with glamour. 2d if they grab it from the environment, or sacrifice a cherished possession to get the iron. 3d if it's awesome.


With stunts, it's about learning how to say "yes" to your players impossible requests for the max fun.

Doesn't your own 'That's how you run stunts' apply to what you're saying? Your take on the 'Stunting and the Impossible' is simply that--an interpretation. Not canon. So don't give me that condescending, snippity 'That's how you run stunts' crap.