Dragon-blooded population

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Charon...uh, you're ignoring a number of major facts. First, the Realm for the last 750+ years has been ruled by a woman. A warrior woman, a military woman...who encouraged the placement of women in high positions and places of power...and somewhat discouraged similar placement of men. Further, ALL Dragonblooded are geared to be warriors. It is what they were created for. Even the Realm, fallen as it may be from the Shogunate ideal, still is a military society. Every member of the Dragonblooded Host, whether male or female, is expected to be able to fight, and fight well. Every member has at least one combat ability favored from a young age. Even those destined to be bureacrats are trained in the use of the sword, the bow and the fist... and combat leadership. Those who merely meet the minimums are considered similar to the student who just barely passes school. Inept. Weak. Soft. It isn't only men among whom 'effeminate' behavior is discouraged...but women as well. Weakness is not tolerated. Notice how even a crippled war hero like Sesus Nagezzer is treated with ridicule and disrespect...despite his obvious wealth and potential power. He's still an indolent cripple, whatever his past heroism.  The bureaus are primarilly a place for the patricians...although some Dragonblooded choose to follow that path, they are not the majority...of either gender.


As for gaining the largest number of Dragonblooded...frankly, sticking the female DBs at home isn't the best way to get the largest number of Dragonblooded. Nor even the swiftest. Having the men stay home and screw EVERY SINGLE mortal woman, and sterilizing the mortal men would create the largest result. Even a poorly bred DB with a non-patrician has a 30% Exhaltation rate...and any mortal children are going to be patricians or half-castes. Simply sterilizing all mortal males and having male DB studs service every female would result in the largest population of Dragonblooded. Eventually, they would likely breed out the mortals...though it would take some considerable time. Is anyone likely to encourage this? No more than your keep the women at home program...but it would be the more successful. Even high breeding Dragonblooded would over time be more common, if no female Dragonblooded were bearing the children of a patrician or a mortal. The very highest breeding might become more rare, but over time, the lowest breeding would also disappear...if every mortal has the blood of a patrician or a Dragontouched...and the female DBs only breed with other Dragonblooded.

 

[Charon]

Charon...uh' date=' you're ignoring a number of major facts. First, the Realm for the last 750+ years has been ruled by a woman. A warrior woman, a military woman...[/quote']
Elisabeth I and Catherine the Great were some of the most forceful leader of their time.  Still, they didn't turn their country in a pre-industrial feminist nation.


---


Considering the argument that it would be more efficient to have male DBs screw mortal woman...  Well, they are.  The fiction isn't shy about the fact that the typical DB male has lots of concubines.  Apparently, that's not enough.


In the first age, there were supposedly millions of DB AND there was a strong ban against breeding with mortal.


Now breeding with mortals is common place, the breeding trait seems to be down and their number isn't growing.


It's not a definitive cause-effect proof, but still one could infer that breeding with mortal isn't improving the DB stock, neither in quantity or quality.


---


Remember, I didn't say female DB should stay at home during the game.  Just that the culture would probably pressure them to do so if this were a real place instead of a fantasy land where our imagination takes us to have fun.

 

[FluffySquirrel]

Elisabeth I and Catherine the Great were some of the most forceful leader of their time.  Still, they didn't turn their country in a pre-industrial feminist nation.

I doubt either of them planned to live over 500 years either.. nevermind forever like the empress clearly planned.


She was thinking long scale

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Additionally, while they may not have, the Empress did. Unless you simply want to ignore what has been specifically been said about the Realm, in general, men are considered somewhat less mature and less suited to rule. There is no rule against such...but there tends to be something of a glass ceiling for males in the Realm...at least cannonically. There definatelly was in 1E, and it doesn't seem to have changed in 2E. Whether you want this to be the case or not, that is cannon.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Of course, if you really want to increase and improve DB breeding, frankly, the easiest method is to simply remove sex from the process. Follow the approach of the Clans in Battletech, and create lineages meticulously crafted by controlled Neomah. That way you can ensure every DB has two DB parents, increase the odds of exhaltation, and even by choosing who is being combined ensure high breeding in ALL new DBs.

 

[Zaramis]

Once again, Charon, read my post.


There are many reasons why it could have worked in the Exalted world when it wouldn't have in the real world. And, there is the fact that, yes, some DB women stay at home, -ruling- their houses and giving birth to children. While their slightly less competent and trustworthy men are out fighting.

 

[Persell]

What about lookshy?  They are suppost to have a little under 2000 Dragon-blooded(from 2E East book), the Scavenger land book suggest this is because of ongoing eugenic programs, but the Cost of breeding as a background is higher if your from lookshy?  Seems that if they haven't grown there population of Dragron-blooded any in the past 700 years they should have at least got some decent breeding out of it.  

Even a poorly bred DB with a non-patrician has a 30% Exhaltation rate...and any mortal children are going to be patricians or half-castes

Where are you getting your numbers from?  I couldn't find the reference in 1st ed so I was going of what I remember to get the 1/5 exaltation,  if a single dragon blooded gives 30% that changes things significantly.
edited for spelling

 

[Persell]

While it does state that the Scarlet Empire is slightly matriarchal and the reason why the Scarlet Empress didn't force women to stay home and be a baby maker is that, while she may have been able to force women into second-class citizens by forcing them away from dangerous situations is probably because she'd rather have a capable female general in charge of an army than have her stay at home and have that army led by a less capable male general.  If a female DB is talented on the battlefield the Scarlet Empress wants that talent where it's needed.  In this way, the Empress allowed the Realm to be a meritocracy as well as an empire.


Also, the Scarlet Empress is extremely savvy in not limiting female DBs in their roles.  By granting them that personal freedom to go after their own pursuits, she won't have to do deal with a revolt of feminism later on.


When it comes to culture, is there an extremely efficient way for people to do things by submitting to a certain role?  Yes.  Does that mean that those people will submit to do those roles?  No.  People would rather have a choice in what they do and if the Empress tried to force all of the Dragon-Blooded into one role or another, she would have a revolt of all the Dragon-Blooded in the Blessed Isle on her hands.


Just because a female DB could be more efficient at baby-making by staying home and being pregnant doesn't mean she wants to stay home and be pregnant.  Even with the pressures of society.  Read the first story in the Dragon-Blooded book for a great example of this.  That woman wasn't going to get married until she was damn sure she was ready to get married, and connived her way out of it on a good note by stating how it was for a greater good.

 

[Persell]

The empire is no real meritocracy. Capable people are sent to the front, because they are dangerous to the empress. That's the whole deal.

 

[Vanman]

And let's not forget that this is a world created by WW, and they're pretty much inculcated with gender equality. It's part and parcel of their world view, if you will.

 

[Zaramis]

Is it more efficient in the real world if everyone was willing to live on just food and water, and be willing to share all the necessary things with eachother? Yep. We'll be doing much better, no one would die from violence and no one would starve..


Do we, just cause it's efficient that way? Nope, obviously not.


Efficiency = !reality.

 

[Charon]

And let's not forget that this is a world created by WW, and they're pretty much inculcated with gender equality. It's part and parcel of their world view, if you will.

Yeah, that's my whole point.


It makes for better stories that are enjoyable by a wider audience.  That's it.  All these attempts to justify this in terms that are politically correct aren't very convincing.


Very few RPG even differentiate between male and female in terms of strenght and speed.  Of course they ain't going to keep their fictious amazon-women off the battlefield!  It would hamper the fun for a portion of the target audience.


This ain't a simulation of what would happen in the real world if there were gods, essence and exalts.  It's just epic storytelling.   And probably the best on the market, right now.  I say suspend your disbelief, don't rationalize.


PS : I just brougth that up essentially to argue that if you accept the number of warrior women in that culture, than accepting their low birthright as just bad breeding in recent times isn't all that hard to do, ya know.  Or put the other way, if you are going to put the setting through hard factual analysis like the OP did, the birth rate is hardly the most obvious "flaw" in the setting.  But since this is basically manga meet mythology, it's hardly the point.

 

[Persell]

Very well put.

 

[Zaramis]

I couldn't play in a setting that can't be rationalized in one way or another. I require realism in my campaign, but realism within fantastic parameters. To me, there are explanations behind everything in the Exalted world, because if someone starts to study something in the game, there has to be a Why and a How to answer him.


I can't tell someone "It's just the way it is, for the sake of the game", that would ruin all immersion I have in a game world. Even in epic stories, things happen for a reason and things work in a certain way.

 

[Persell]

Sometimes the in game explanation does not hold when confronted with 21st century science. *shrug* If THAT is your only problem you can consider yourself a lucky man.

 

[Zaramis]

21st century science? I make no demands of that. But realism and rationalism WITHIN the game setting is still just as important as it is in any modern setting. The game setting says that sciences work differently, but everything in the world is still bound by rules. Just other ones.

 

[Persell]

Why are you wrong then? Or more, why does the setting then say you are wrong?


Why is the most successful military commander in the empire a woman and Why is she not kept at home?


And where in the books does it state that females are kept at home because something is too dangerous? Why do you even assume that was something the empire looks at?


Like I mentioned above, it works the following:


You are competent -> The empress starts to think you are dangerous -> You are sent to the front.


You can read that up in the manual of exalted power: the dragon-blooded.

 

[wordman]

Yes. If you follow the argument through, the Empress is sacrificing one of her greatest potential weapons (the fact that dragon-blooded can breed) to stave off real or imagined threats to herself. This is a double sin against her race, because chances are that those who would be a threat to her are the best and brightest, so she is basically gimping the gene pool. This ultimately makes her Empire and, thus, her, weaker.


Put another way, the canonical mention that the Empire (and, by extension, the Empress) cares about breeding rate and a "duty" to breed has to be viewed a a ploy by the Empress not to make her family (and, thus, Empire) stronger, but only to allow her the option of sacrificing trouble-makers without making the race extinct.


This doesn't seem like the act of a long-term planner as shrewd and conniving as the Empress is portrayed. To me, it just seems like a stupid move. But, you pretty much have to believe it to buy into a lot of canon.


I think that sucks. It makes both the Empress and her Empire significantly less interesting. There may be some flimsy justifications that can be brought to bear re-convince me that the canonical Empress isn't an idiot. I'll have to think about it a bit.

 

[Jukashi]

If you want to make the Empress smarter, change it around - those best and brightest aren't being sent to the front to die, they're there to face up against the biggest and baddest threats to the Realm... and become more powerful for the experience.


Thus the truly superior survive and those that were weak die, and the strong return, to pass on their experience and their blood, and to work for the betterment of the Realm; because they've seen what the alternative really is, and after that, petty political backstabbing isn't really that important anymore.

 

[Zaramis]

You are using examples of how the Empress acted, when the empress has been gone for 5 years?


And I am not wrong. I stated my view of the setting already:


Since the Shogunate and up to the date when the empress disappeared, they Dragon Blooded society has worked a bit like our modern society. They aren't required to follow the biologically most practical way of breeding because they have not been in a crisis. They have had dominion over the world. This would easily lead to a situation where the women find many other ways of occupying themselves, other than childbearing, and because of a hundred different reasons, the culture has developed into a heroism-worshipping culture with strong implications of face and honor, a culture where being all-competent is the height of achievement, especially within your element. The fact that the Empress has ruled for 800 years has simply enforced and hastened the progress that was already being made in gender equality in the world, and somewhat switched it over to the opposite, where women are considered better rulers, more intelligent and slightly superior to the dragon blooded men. That has, of course, meant that when someone is seen as a -real- threat to the Empress, they have been sent far away to some remote location. As long as the empress ruled, that was logical and fair, since the empire didn't face any opposition. I am of the opinion that this happened to very few people overall, and only when she deemed them dangerous for some other reason, on to one of her projects or destructive to the internal order she had established.


However, it's also a fact ( since inheritance is on the female side, and often females have the most important positions ) that now, with the Empress gone, the situation must inevitably change.


It is, however, up to each storyteller to decide just how their world changes with these major factions out there in the world. To me, it's fairly logical that a society which inherits on the female side, will want to make sure they have some daughters alive. Sons are more or less used for alliances, since they are "given" away to other houses, aka: less important. But, females are the ones who's children will bear the family name, and they are the more competent rulers. Which, in a time of crisis where the entire Dragon Blooded empire is threatened from a hundred different sources, makes it important to:


1. Secure your House's position in the Realm


2. Secure that your house won't be decimated by the struggle


3. Make sure that your house has the most competent staff around


and 4. Make sure the other houses aren't becoming too powerful.


The empress is no longer in charge, and the Deliberative is severly split over many issues. The only person dangerous enough to have warranted a unified political force at home is Tepet Ejava, but even so, many houses want their own people back and/or doing other things to make sure their own house is growing in power.


What does these four points give us? A situation where you want: Your women home, ruling your house and giving birth to children who will, in the future, make sure your house remains a strong one. You also want your strongest individuals and most powerful leaders active where the action is - the Imperial Isle and the satrapies where you have to make peace to get your income.


True, many Dragon Blooded live on like nothing happened, and for many, life is just like it was before. But my opinion, based on these facts and how the society has been portrayed before, has made me reach the conclusion ( in my chronicle ) that many Houses are now willing to spend some cash to protect their female scions and make sure they establish powerful households, cause they hold the future of the House in their hands. This is mainly for small households like V'neef, like I mentioned before, since that household is what my chronicle is sort-of centered around, and they are small enough that it matters a lot.

 

[wordman]

Thus the truly superior survive and those that were weak die, and the strong return, to pass on their experience and their blood, and to work for the betterment of the Realm

I could see the Empress being this sort of brutal "trial-by-fire" experimenter, willing to sacrifice her descendants to better her race; however, this motivation sort of flies in the face of Safim's argument. Also, I'm not sure it is really makes her seem any "smarter".

 

[Zaramis]

( It's also stated, from sources who wrote for Exalted 1st Ed that I know personally, that the new developers have no clue about many of the delicate parts of how the Exalted world works, and have just tossed in a bunch of odd things since the old main developer is no longer on the project.


That's what I blame most of the weird, stupid or just retarded changes that have been made to go contrary against the 1st Ed. The rules and everything else is awesome in 2nd ed, but how they treat the DB's hasn't been, so far. The blessed isle book was the best of how they have been described so far, it was written by a lot of the people who were close with previous writers and developers of 1st ed. Not saying 1st ed's world was perfect, but they treated the DB's with a lot more intelligence. )


( I suppose "no clue" is a bit of a strong word. But they don't share the same visions. )

 

[Jukashi]

I could see the Empress being this sort of brutal "trial-by-fire" experimenter, willing to sacrifice her descendants to better her race; however, this motivation sort of flies in the face of Safim's argument. Also, I'm not sure it is really makes her seem any "smarter".

That's not the only part of her motivation. In fact, many of those she sends off probably are troublemakers. But what I'm saying is that that's not the only reason she does it. It also strengthens the race... and it ensures that most of the strongest warriors and generals in the Realm are, broadly speaking, on her side.


The Empress' Motivation is, most likely, something like "Maintain the prosperity and power of the Realm". She's sacrificed everything for that goal that would aid it. As a result, she is emotionally invested in the Realm's well-being, because if the Realm falls, then it was all for nothing. Her friends, her family, all gone (often by her hand) for what, in the end, could not last. Smart woman as she is, she'd know this. So how to create other people who value the Realm as much as herself? Get them to do the same things she's done.


So, she sends the best soldiers out into the Threshold, together (as Dragon-Blooded must be to be at their best), where - separated from their home and the social network layer throughout it - they bond with each other. And then they face up against a Deathlord, or the Fair folk, or a Lunar war-horde, and inevitably, some of them die.


But those that remain become stronger, more experienced, and most of all, their loyalty to the Realm is assured. Because, due to the Great Curse, the Terrestrials are powerfully emotional beings, and if they did anything to hurt the Realm, then all the effort they spent fighting (facing down horrors that would drive mere mortals mad), suffering (at the hands of Abyssals, Fair Folk and demons) and seeing their comrades die would all have been a waste. One or two might resent the Realm instead, but the majority - having been raised and trained to believe in the correctness of their actions, and seeing the horrors of life outside the Realm first hand - would only become more certain: The Realm must survive.

 

[Flagg]

( It's also stated, from sources who wrote for Exalted 1st Ed that I know personally, that the new developers have no clue about many of the delicate parts of how the Exalted world works, and have just tossed in a bunch of odd things since the old main developer is no longer on the project.

Interesting.


Examples?

 

[Persell]

You assume that bright people have bright babies, wordman. That is not neccessarily the case. How people are has not a lot to do with how their parents are but how they are raised, and raising is pretty same for every child of a great house.