Dragon Blooded Bonus Point Impossibility?

[Persell]

After making my first character using the 2nd Ed DB book, I ran across something a little strange. Maybe this is not independent to 2nd ed, but I noticed that there are bonus point costs for Immaculate/Celestial Martial Arts Charms (a cost of 10, or 7 if favored). However, characters studying Immaculate Martial Arts must purchase two initiation charms to use the Celestial MA, completing with the Enlightening Charms of  either Moment of Daan'a'd (curiously spelt with an e in second ed), Iris Bulb discourse, or Tiger-and-Bear Unity. Each of these enlightening Charms requires an Essence of 3.


To get an Essence of 3 one must spend 10 bonus points.


Alright. So, to get Immaculate Martial Arts, you must already spend 10 bonus points to boost your Essence. You only have 5 bonus points left to play with. How, then, can you use 7 (or 10) bonus points to get an additional charm?


This is probably completely useless and maybe a bit lame to point out, but frankly I've always been sort of frustrated at how limited Immaculate Martial Artists start out - first with fewer Charms, and then with 2/3rds of their bonus points being robbed just to use them.


Am I completely wrong in my thinking in this?

 

[Flagg]

You get a bunch of free Charms at chargen. You on'y need to spend bonus points if you want MORE.


-S

 

[Fruan]

The Enlightening charms having a minimum essence of 3 is almost certainly a mistake - In first ed they didn't, and I can't see why they'd want to make this change given the headaches it causes in char gen, as you've rightly pointed out.


Until the DB errata comes out, houserule (or get your Storyteller to house rule) That Moment of Danad, Iris Bulb Discourse and Tiger and Bear Unity have an essence requirement of 2. Once the errata is out this will almost certainly be official - Immaculates are unplayable any other way.

 

[The Scorp]

what are the essence requirements for the 1st three charms in any immaculate style?


oh and yeah, I disagree.  They are playable.  You get three charms into your style.  Thats still playable.  Use the 5 to up breeding or up your combat prowess or virtues or will.  Get specialties!  Your Immaculate would be skilled heavy at first until they get the XP to get to the form charm.


Personally I negate this and house rule that those two beginning charms are for free and you have to pick 5 charms from the style or ox-body, but thats just me.  I just think its stupid that they get less charms than normal just cuz they want to signify that its hard to obtain these charms.  Bah I say.  The players already get penalized in game by spending more anyway.  So let them start with a bang.   Its not game breaking anyway.  But having only 5 charms (2 initiation, 3 style) is by no means unplayable.

 

[Persell]

You get a bunch of free Charms at chargen. You on'y need to spend bonus points if you want MORE.

No, no I understand that. I'm just saying that, as the rules are now, any Immaculate martial artist cannot have the necessary background points to buy a new Immaculate Charm if he spends 10 of them to get to Essence 3 so he can purchase the Enlightening Charm necessary to use Immaculate Martial Arts in the first place.


Or am I screwed up in my reasoning there?

 

[Flagg]

Sorry, I don't have the book, so I can't check.


-S

 

[Thorn Darkblade]

Possibly available with merits and flaws in the future?

 

[Persell]

!!! Good point, I hadn't thought of that. That could raise your bonus point total enough to justify having the listing there.

 

[Fruan]

I still say it's a misprint - Immaculates never needed essence 3 in the past, and if this were an intentional design choice they would have specified in character creation that they started with essence 3. Requring you to spend bonus points on reaching the prereqs for non-optional charms is not something that even Whitewolf would do.


Further more, Celestial style Martial arts in general, and specifically the 5 immaculate styles, all start with essence 2 charms.


Having the enlightening charms essece 3 makes no sence on many different levels.

 

[Thorn Darkblade]

!!! Good point, I hadn't thought of that. That could raise your bonus point total enough to justify having the listing there.

Yeah, we just have to be patient and wait for the 2nd edition rerelease of them...maybe one of the scrolls of esoteric wisdom?

 

[The Scorp]

At first I was about to agree, then I realized, well, it doesnt matter if the Styles cost less in Essence then that of the Initiation charms.  I do not think its a misprint.  If you want to play a Dragon Blooded who's learning Celestial MA, then you will have to invest in 3 perm Essence to do so.  Its just one of those things showing why DBed are not as in tuned with their Essence as Solars are.  


Now if you're playing a Solar who's learning these Styles, well, he could have an Essence 2 and stay that way well into the tree before requiring Perm Essence 3 for more of the more powerful charms the style has to offer...just one more benefit of playing a Solar.  


So nah, not a misprint unless errata'd.  


I guess the Devs want to show that you are playing a char that starts with alot of draw backs, but for a good reason.  Going down this path will grant you charms that are better than the rest and spending more exp, starting with less of them, and requiring a large chunk of your BP is the penalty for doing so...but in the end, after all that hardwork, you'll get a nice little payoff.  Just a thought.

 

[Persell]

Fruan, I actually don't know if needing Essence 3 is a misprint, because you did need Essence 3 in 1st Ed. To get Spirit Walking, which is all Moment of Daana'd is, you had to have Essence 3.


There's very little different. Except I noticed it this time.

 

[Fruan]

Woah, what? Spirit walking had an essence requirement of 3 in first ed too?


Buh. OK, I'm wrong, I guess.


But, now I want to officially change my complaint from that of misprint to that of bad templating. Immaculates should start with an essence of 3 and 5 bonus points, rather than 15 bonus points and a need to spend 10 of them to get the essence you need to use your starting charms.


As it stands, its way too easy for people to not notice; I concider myself a more or less competent player, and I've been running Immaculates illeagally all through 1st ed.

 

[Zin]

I think that the essence rec is intended. Mortals that want to learn terestial MA needs 3 essence to do it.


I belive that 3 is a "magical" number for those that want to train in somthing they usaly cant. And Terestial level sorcery starts at 3 to.

 

[Persell]

The early requirements for the for the actual style charms are only essence one or two in many cases (wood being 2's and 3's).

 

[memesis]

"The Terrestrial initiation Charms' Essence prerequisites can't be higher than the actual MA Charms" might sound like a good argument until you consider Celestial practitioners of the dragon styles, who do not need to learn the two initiation Charms.  I'll wait for any errata, but I don't consider it unreasonable.


Merits and flaws are one option.  Another is to run an Essence 3+ DB game, house-ruling that your PCs have higher-than-normal Essence at chargen for no cost.

 

[Samiel]

Yea, I'd agree that Immaculate Martial Artists should start with only 5 bonus points to make it less confusing, as essence 3 is a reasonable requirement for access to celestial styles.


However, for them I'd allow a flaw whereby they could sacrifice starting charms for versatility, so they could ditch one of their already limited charm selection in order for greater flexibility.


As to extra charms, why complain? You already have celestial-level charms instead of the normal DB ones.. sounds like a bargain. Especially when DBs can use their excellencies freely in second ed to work around the old "Roll for the Form" limitation in first ed.