Does Gem of Adamant Skin cost enough?

[josiah42]

I searched around first. I thought about necroing an old thread about Gem of Adamant Skin. They basically state that Gem of Adamant Skin is impressive but not totally unbeatable because of Agg, social attacks, disarms or grapples and the like. I'm not asking if it's beatable.


I'm wondering if the benefits of Gem of Adamant Skin are proportional to the cost. Is it as good as other 4-dot hearthstones. Are there any scene long charms that reduce lethal to bashing? Isn't this at least a 5-dot hearthstone? What about giving it some kind of flaw, like White Jade Tree's half movement rate?


The reason I ask is that I GM a game with 6 people and I think 3 of them have the Gem of Adamant Skin. They all made characters separately, but it just seemed like a clear win that most characters would want. For my AI thesis paper I wrote an algorithm for determining game balance and it ultimately came down to a question of choice. If something is "personal preference", "ya, that'd be fun but I could do without", then it's balanced. If you hit a no choice intersection then you know it's not balanced. "Why would you ever use that?" is underpowered, whereas "you didn't pick up X and you're a Y?!?" is probably overpowered (common sense applies). Lately, backgrounds for any character who'd like combat to be one of his/her "things" basically comes down to "Ok, 4 dots in Gem of Adamant Skin, what do you want to do with the rest of your dots?".

 

[Plague of Hats]

Hearthstones in general a pretty spotty, and could be implement better by overhauling the entire hearthstone system. Gem of Adamant Skin is...undesirable from a balance standpoint, but not horribly broken on its own, as you're just as Incapacitated with bashing as you are with lethal. Unfortunately, most other powers exacerbate its problems immensely because of the divides in how damage types are treated (for instance, it's cheaper and easier for a Lunar to soak and regenerate bashing; By Pain Reforged and By Agony Empowered combine with the Gem of Adamant Skin to prolong the Infernal's life even further; etc.).

 

[josiah42]

Oh hey cool, it's Plague of Hats. I was just reading Hyperion Key when you responded. I'm well aware of all the charm interactions. I've got an Abyssal with Laughing Wounds Style, a Lunar with Bruise Relief and a Dragonblood with some earthy-soak-something. It really wouldn't be that bad except that charms appear to treat bashing damage like the 'whimpy' category of damage, they don't seem to acknowledge the presence of this hearthstone. You know, a really easy house rule would simply be to say that the damage is only treated as bashing for the purposes of soak and incapacitation, but not charms. That's effectively how it works for core book solars.


If people just want it so that defeat doesn't equal death, I think it's a nice and useful device. I'm all for keeping PCs and NPCs alive for long running games. If that's it's only use I'd be perfectly happy with saying that it even stops lethal overflow from killing you once you're incapacitated. So that way, killing the hearthstone bearer would involve either a coup de grace or walking over to their unconscious body, taking their artifact and then stabbing them. Hmmm, what do you think?


"Gem of Adamant Skin: Allows the bearer to substitute their Bashing Soak against lethal attacks. Furthermore, if the character would be killed from bashing or lethal damage they are incapacitated instead. This has no effect on Aggravated Damage."

 

[Gylthinel]

From a balance standpoint, I think the hearthstone is close to unmatched. It decreases healing times (by making damage bashing) and increases soak (since most people have better bashing soak than lethal soak). If that were it, the thing wouldn't be so bad, but one cannot ignore the fact that nearly every splat book has some artifact, hearthstone, or charm that would interact w/ the Adamant Skin to make the power game-breaking.


I have outlawed the hearthstone in my games.

 

[wordman]

One drawback to the Gem of Adamant Skin is that it requires the maintenance (and possession) of a 4-dot manse. If it is true that the GoAS is simply better than other 4-dot hearthstones, then it is also true that the payoff for a bad guy to track down and take that manse is higher as well. Once you are actually in a manse, breaking the attunement of others to it is fairly trivial.


And, say! Who did the character's steal the manse from in the first place? There is almost no way that such high level manses weren't claimed by somebody before the PCs got there. Do they want them back?


What hearthstones are really good at is buffing up opposition (particularly terrestrials) in ways that the PCs cannot steal when they kill said opposition.

 

[Persell]

Aggravated damage isn't hard to come by. Especially if your opponent is a sorcerer. You also have the problem of someone coming at you with a Grand Goremaul or any other high damage attack. The wrap around damage is still lethal. Four dots is just fine.

 

[Gylthinel]

Aggravated damage isn't hard to come by. Especially if your opponent is a sorcerer. You also have the problem of someone coming at you with a Grand Goremaul or any other high damage attack. The wrap around damage is still lethal. Four dots is just fine.

So I have to specifically build an opponent that can do very specific and specialized attacks to get around the hearthstone. Wordman's proposition is to change the plot to involve attacks on the manse, rather than moving the plot in whatever direction it was going. All of these approaches would be valid if employed once every blue moon. But if every foe has a goremaul, does agg damage, or avoids the player and attacks his manse instead (or worse, does aggravated damage with his goremaul to the player's manse), then you've got some painful redudancy on your hands. Furthermore, by crafting specific foes and specific plots to defeat a single hearthstone, you're compromising your game to defeat it. That's practically the definition of imbalanced.


Furthermore, by crafting a villain that can pulverize a guy with the hearthstone, you've simultaneously crafted a villain that would decimate players without the hearthstone. The goremaul may only KO your player with the GAS (Gem of Adamant Skin... that's awesome) but a similar strike against his neighbor would turn his neighbor into a corpse. Even if said player had just about any other hearthstone.


In fact, I'm curious if anybody can find another hearthstone that would require such extreme measures to counter?

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Certainly not at Level 4. For that matter, most Level 5 Heartstones are frankly weaker.


Let's see, at the same level someone can Walk on Air, spend a willpower to add 2 to their essence for the purpose of a single charm or spell, use Craft (Earth) without tools quickly for an essence cost, sink into the ground to hide, plan more effective strategies if they take the time, gain a really weak fire attack, spy on people through fires, gain +4 lethal to attacks, turn water into ice, change facial features only, heal others by taking the damage yourself (never being able to use it again if it's healed magically), or make plants healthy, gain 2 successes on Survical rolls, enter the dreams of others, see throug illusions, add 4 to Appearance to a maximum of 7, cause aggravated damage to the ghosts and put down zombie's with a touch, add 4 dice to Martial Arts attacks, make prophecies, or ensure there ship is never harmed by weather at sea. Many of these are quite useful, but none are truly comparable to transforming all Lethal Damage into Bashing damage.


Overall, I'd say it's more of a Level 5 Hearthstone than a Level 4, particularly considering it's quite frankly stronger than many of the level 5's, but not all of them.

 

[Fabricati]

I dunno, considering there's a Level 5 that can, used wisely, not only doubles your ground speed and keeps your DV at max at all times, but can halve your training time, it might be Lv5 but as it stands that is just two more bonus points, at best. It's not going to stop someone from taking it, and it's certainly not going to make it any less "powerful".


Actually, tailoring a villain to your PCs is part of the plot. Remember, if anyone gets away, word spreads, albeit slowly. If you just take bashing damage people are going to talk. And angry people are more likely to try and find ways around it.


Also, if half your team has GoAS, well, Oadenol's Codex: "about eighty percent of Creation's demesnes are level 3 or below, and the vast majority of the rest (around 3/4ths) are level 4..." This means manses of that level are exceedingly rare, especially in the Age of Sorrows, where there's no-one who can build them. Yet. If they want three level-4 hearthstones that's fine, but they should be prepared to move around three quarters of the Threshold to keep other people from jacking their stuff.


Backgrounds are plot hooks, too. Never forget this. Backing? "Your organization has a task for you". Cult? "One of your worshippers approaches you with a mission of mercy..." Followers? "Someone's hurting your people!"


You get the idea. Even Artifacts- especially Artifacts- should be MacGuffins about which stories revolve. Why should that be different for a Manse?

 

[Persell]

Um....you don't have to create a bad guy that can one shot people. If he just uses a weapon that does bashing damage the stone looses any benefit to the wielder. Weapons of which there are many kinds. You fists are one of them. Maybe he is fighting a sorcerer. That's not someone who is specifically made to counter the hearth stone. It is not difficult at all to have any enemy he faces to just ignore it, which is kinda lame for a four-dot stone. You give the Gem of Adamant Skin way too much credit. You shouldn't even be thinking about when you make opponents. All it does it let you fight a little bit longer than you would otherwise against people with weapons that do lethal damage.

 

[Gylthinel]

Um....you don't have to create a bad guy that can one shot people. If he just uses a weapon that does bashing damage the stone looses any benefit to the wielder. Weapons of which there are many kinds. You fists are one of them. Maybe he is fighting a sorcerer. That's not someone who is specifically made to counter the hearth stone. It is not difficult at all to have any enemy he faces to just ignore it, which is kinda lame for a four-dot stone. You give the Gem of Adamant Skin way too much credit. You shouldn't even be thinking about when you make opponents. All it does it let you fight a little bit longer than you would otherwise against people with weapons that do lethal damage.

I find this observation to be very insightful. Make the hearthstone useless by doing bashing instead of lethal. That's brilliant!


And I agree that the hearthstone isn't that great in and of itself. But it's not by itself. Every single splat book has some effect that turns it from a mild benefit into a game-breaking over-powered item. Keen synergy of effects is what crunch-heavy games like Exalted are all about. But pairing the GAS with any of the plethora of effects that make it uber is not a painstaking excercise in character creation, it's easy and extremely cheap.


Furthermore, my general thesis is that use determines value (anybody who has purchased a house should understand this). If half of your players pick it, that's because it's freaking good. And most players don't pick combat-only items because they're fun and cute, they pick them to win fights. Can you name another item/background/charm that half of your players buy?

 

[Persell]

Hearthstone Bracers, Perfected Boots, Artifact chain shirts, any background and a whole slew of other things. I've actually never had anyone in any game I've played in or run take a GoAS.


There is not really any ways to make a GoAS game breaking. I can only think of one that comes close, Bruise-Relief Method. In 1x, yeah it was over powered, but in 2x there is nothing I can think of that would make it game breaking.

 

[rattleingpython]

INSATIABLE SLAVE STAMINA breaks Gemstone of adamant skin totally. All lethal damage is bashing and bashing cant roll over to lethal. Thats the one i use when I want to give characters plot armor in my games not a perfect shield but a good one.

 

[Persell]

Eh, still not game breaking. There are lot of ways to take out some one with out even inflicting any damage. Also, Incapacitated is Incapacitated even with bashing which leads to very bad things for the character.

 

[rattleingpython]

Instatible slave stamina makes it so you cant be incapicated by basing damage at all.


Yes there are ways by it but it removes the basic combat tactic and truly makes the charecter immune to mortals and huge swaths of normal exalts for a scene.

 

[Persell]

Grapple. Crippling effects. Compulsions. Illusions. Poison. Touch attacks. List goes on. Lots of options still available for the average Exalt.

 

[rattleingpython]

Grappling: The charecter isnt a horrible grappler his Martial arts score is decent regerdless.


Crippling: is rare low essence especialy crippling that can destroy your foe a few charms in concept and a hearthstone and you get it early.


Compuslions: Not even a normal combat attack sure you can beat a super tank in social combat.


Poison: I see no reason that poison gets around this unless it deal aggravted..


Touch attack: Have to be crippling to get around it if they just do damange they dont beat the combo (unless its agravted.) I just went through the solar corebook and found 1 charm to break the combo total and it is a Martial arts charm.


It takes alot of work to get around is the point.

 

[Persell]

Not all Poison effect require damage at all to take effect, and if they do it doesn't mean it has to be lethal. It will say in each description. Nor do they all do damage.


Most Touch attacks do something other than or in addition to damage with out needing to actually do any. Often paired with Poison keyword.


Crippling effects are available at low ranges for most Exalts. Many able to incapacitate or physically hinder an opponent with out need for lethal damage. Such as:


-Solars: Knockout Blow, Ox-Stunning Blow, Joint-Wounding Attack, *Branding Judgment Attack (Mirror)


-Abyssals: Iron Sleet Attack, Artful Maiming Onslaught, Soul-Cleaving Wound, *Burrowing Bone Maggot(Mirror)


That's just the Core and Abyssal book, all at Essence 3 or less, all easily gained at chargen and none requiring lethal damage. Yeah, Abyssals can rip you apart with bashing.


My point is it is very easy to get around if you were so inclined.

 

[Dinosaur]

-Abyssals: Iron Sleet Attack, Artful Maiming Onslaught, Soul-Cleaving Wound, *Burrowing Bone Maggot(Mirror)


That's just the Core and Abyssal book, all at Essence 3 or less, all easily gained at chargen and none requiring lethal damage. Yeah, Abyssals can rip you apart with bashing.


My point is it is very easy to get around if you were so inclined.

You left out all of the Dark Messiah Style Charms that do Crippling. They practically fall out of the tree like rain from a storm, even at its beginnings (Foe-Blinding Jab is just after Ravaging Blow, Grievous Agony Attack is just after the Form).

 

[Virjigorm]

What I'm wondering is why anyone thinks the Gem of Adamant Skin is any better that doubling your DV or soak, or adding a handful of health levels? Each power/artifact/ability should be taken on it's own to consider balance. Developing and acquiring complementary powers and items is the basic mechanic for character improvement in Exalted. Perhaps it is possible to stack charms onto the Gem and be immune to lethal damage or heal all your bashing real fast, but you could heal all that bashing without the Gem. With it you're protected from lethal as well. That's not game breaking, it's roughly matched in power level to the Solar charm Iron Skin Concentration(tier 2, btw). Combine a high stamina+resistance with Iron Skin Concentration and any artifact power which adds dice or successes to resistance and you are virtually immune to damage using a 2nd tier charm (agg included). Yes, this ties up charm use (until you add another power or charm to make it innate), yes it costs motes(but it can be used in combo with Essence Gathering Temper to get them back many times over). OK, I'm ranting...back to the point...


What about the GoAS is better than that or any other combination of charms or artifacts? The Gem has a desirable Manse attached to it and makes the bearer a target for thieves, power-hungry Exalts, God-Bloods, and even governments and organizations. It still requires other powers to make it any better than extra health levels.


If you have a problem running a game with that hearthstone in it, make it RARE! It is supposed to be rare anyway, and I think the only imbalance is letting 3 characters start play with copies of a rare and powerful hearthstone. I once ran a game where the Dawn caste warrior had a Gem of Immortality. It didn't break the game, It let me kill him over and over without ruining the story. If the dice were going to kill someone, it could be him and I had no guilt. Every item has it's pros and cons, and if you think it doesn't work, you have the option not to use it.

 

[Kyeudo]

If you have a problem running a game with that hearthstone in it, make it RARE! It is supposed to be rare anyway, and I think the only imbalance is letting 3 characters start play with copies of a rare and powerful hearthstone. I once ran a game where the Dawn caste warrior had a Gem of Immortality. It didn't break the game, It let me kill him over and over without ruining the story. If the dice were going to kill someone, it could be him and I had no guilt. Every item has it's pros and cons, and if you think it doesn't work, you have the option not to use it.

That sounds like a cool game. How many times did you kill him?

 

[vegetalss4]

I once ran a game where the Dawn caste warrior had a Gem of Immortality. It didn't break the game, It let me kill him over and over without ruining the story. If the dice were going to kill someone, it could be him and I had no guilt. Every item has it's pros and cons, and if you think it doesn't work, you have the option not to use it.

while i agree with most of your post, a Gem of Immortality do not work that way.


It protects you only from old age, and related illnesses.

 

[Captain Hesperus]

I once ran a game where the Dawn caste warrior had a Gem of Immortality. It didn't break the game, It let me kill him over and over without ruining the story. If the dice were going to kill someone, it could be him and I had no guilt. Every item has it's pros and cons, and if you think it doesn't work, you have the option not to use it.

In this situation, where a character is getting regularly 'offed' and resurrecting with the Gem of Immortality, I'd start giving them Derangements, just simply for the trauma of so many deaths. But that's just me, I used to GM Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay First Edition and ended up with a character who was deathly afraid of rabbits.....


<EDIT TO ADD:> Gem of Immortality? Isn't that the one that stops you aging and suffering the effects of old age?


Captain Hesperus

 

[Persell]

I think he meant Gem of Wellbeing. Which is "oddly" missing from 2E.

 

[Virjigorm]

while i agree with most of your post, a Gem of Immortality do not work that way.
It protects you only from old age, and related illnesses.

oops, it was back in 1e and...

I think he meant Gem of Wellbeing. Which is "oddly" missing from 2E.

Close, but it was actually called the Gem of Incomparable Wellness. There I go mixing up my world-shaking wonders again.

That sounds like a cool game. How many times did you kill him?

I killed him at least 3 times that I specifically remember. The last time the player was grounded for several game sessions and the plot was revolving around a mad Twilight trapping Exaltations(souls still attached) in a crystal to keep them from the Neverborn. It was kind of a no brainer to just have his soul sucked away for a while while his body regenerated. Unfortunately it took the party about 2 years(in-game, travel time's a bitch) to find the secret lab and free the Exaltations, so he had to play a couple sessions as a disembodied soul with nothing to do but talk to other disembodied souls (great time to buy some social charms).


I would have given him derangements, but each "death" was a heroic sacrifice which saved the day and was totally in line with the character's values. He was the rare Exalt who was actually willing to die for his ideals. I might have enjoyed just offing him with silly accidents for comic relief, but he was a bit too clever and well developed for that to work.


My default PC to kill when I need to vent now is the 6 Essence Lunar full-moon with Emperor Ox Expansion. He has all those charms which stave off damage and death, so I can beat on him in truly horrific ways and never fear story ruination. He once got ripped limb from limb fighting a Daybreak in a royal bonestrider who summoned Lordas the Death Sun. When he finally tore up the strider by pumping his strength to triple digits and killed the necromancer, it set off the abyssal's Birth of Sanity's Sorrow and he had to fight that while holding off Lordas and The Pit. He killed Lordas, got shredded by the mega-void powered uber-abyssal, set aside a shit-ton of damage, regenerated a lot more, then killed the necromancer-avatar-monster-thing with The Pit. Of course he survived, but at least I made him spend some willpower.


This is why I do not fear the Gem of Adamant Skin.