Viewpoint Do you use the LGTBQ Friendly sub genre? Why or why not?

[Delinquent]

So rather than having a redundant tag and a tag that is actually meaningful, just havig one tag that is actually meaningful and forgoing the other one makes a lot more sense.

I wouldn't argue that such a tag is redundant. Yes, people in this thread seem to be in agreement that being lgbt-friendly is the norm here. But let's be honest, how many people have replied to this topic? And how many users are registered on this forum? Can you really say that such a small sample size should be taken at face value as a representation for the entirety of this forum? Especially when people who are homophobic tend to stay out of these kinds of discussions.

And again, people going "I'll totally let people play gay characters" isn't enough to convince me that their rp will be lgbt-friendly. I've fallen for that particular trick one too many times.

 

[Dede]

Don't get me wrong- like the others who have expressed this view in the thread, I reiterate that it's great that you guys think this is such a non-issue that it shouldn't even have to be specified that threads are LGBTQ+-friendly on here. But I also can't help but notice that many of the people who have said this don't seem to be a part of the community (or at least have not mentioned that they are)? And if that's the case it seems a little, I don't know, presumptuous maybe? Not speaking for anybody else, but the feeling I get from that is kind of like you're saying "Why are you getting upset over something that isn't even an issue?". And if you aren't actually part of that community that does get discriminated against and does have to deal with said issue, maybe this should be modified to specify that this isn't an issue for you specifically and others on here who feel the same way- not that it isn't an issue period, because it is.

I can't speak for others, but I certainly don't think this is a non-issue. I just happen to disagree with the solution which has been implemented, for reasons I have already explained.

Of course I can also understand if many people use the tag and swear by it, even though I personally find it counterproductive.

 

[rae2nerdy]

I kind of agree

I can't speak for others, but I certainly don't think this is a non-issue. I just happen to disagree with the solution which has been implemented, for reasons I have already explained.

Of course I can also understand if many people use the tag and swear by it, even though I personally find it counterproductive.

I think that the problem is that the LGBTQ thing is primarily linked to romance. One of the Admins actually broke it down on the first page that the reason they added the tag was because MxM is so popular as a pairing and they wanted a way to indicate that you were open to LGBTQ Relationships in your search. So I think perhaps renaming it to be LGBTQ Ship Friendly or something like that might be a little better. It would prevent a lot of the misunderstanding and it would clarify slightly that it is about characters.

As to the minority tag. I don't actually think it's as big of a deal in relationships what nationality a person is. Most people default to either white or their own nationality and I've never seen it be an issue one way or another. So that could be why it's not addressed.


I believe it is addressed in the Site Rules. You literally can't use racial slurs (they're censored) and presumably someone caught saying "I'm Uncultured" (the censor for slurs) a lot would be looked at by staff.

 

[Idea]

When I said discrimination is rampant, I meant the world/internet at large- not specifically RPN xD And while this thread doesn't have players who would be opposed to LGBTQ+ players or characters in their RPs, it does have stories about those players/characters being rejected or made to feel uncomfortable/unwelcome for that reason. I also don't think it's reasonable to expect people who are or are at least made to feel like the minority and 'not the norm' everywhere else to come here and suddenly think 'I am considered normal and accepted everywhere' when they get on here.

While I can see where you are coming from- new people to the site wouldn't know how the site operates, I stand firm in the position that a single tag for LGBT-specific topics makes more sense than multiple tags for the various types of "acceptance", and much more than one that is entirely redundant from the perspective of the person picking what among a limited number of tags to include in their RP. If you are someone who is new to the site and have such concerns in mind to the point where you can't either (A) takes the risk with it almost certainly paying off (since the vast majority of RPs even without the specific tag are lgbt-friendly) or (B) ask, then you won't particularly care that the LGBT tag is specifically for RPs dealing with LGBT themes (in this hypothetical scenario), in fact you are probably looking for an RP like that.

On the other hand, more advanced players who should already be familiar with the site's general attitude on this matter can still be mislead by the tag being there or lack thereof. Unlike the new player who wouldn't be missing out much either way, these players are definitely missing out on what could be important options for them.

Don't get me wrong- like the others who have expressed this view in the thread, I reiterate that it's great that you guys think this is such a non-issue that it shouldn't even have to be specified that threads are LGBTQ+-friendly on here. But I also can't help but notice that many of the people who have said this don't seem to be a part of the community (or at least have not mentioned that they are)? And if that's the case it seems a little, I don't know, presumptuous maybe? Not speaking for anybody else, but the feeling I get from that is kind of like you're saying "Why are you getting upset over something that isn't even an issue?". And if you aren't actually part of that community that does get discriminated against and does have to deal with said issue, maybe this should be modified to specify that this isn't an issue for you specifically and others on here who feel the same way- not that it isn't an issue period, because it is.

There's a difference between "non-issue" and "default". When I state that it is default, it means that it is the norm, the expectation, and I'm not speaking as a member of the LGBT community there, I'm speaking as someone who makes RPs and accepts players who make those characters if they want to come into those RPs and even will roleplay certain LGBT characters and relationships myself. Because what I am speaking of is my own attitude, and the attitude other people seem to share. Whether or not it is connected to an issue, people are not going to remember or prioritize stating the obvious. Unless you are either part of the LGBT or specifically thinking of LGBT folks as you work on the interest check, odds are you either won't want to or will forget to add the tag. If you feel like it's presumptuous of me to take what people have actually said about their own attitudes, as well as the general attitude I've experienced on the site, and applying that to assess what the broader standarded attitude is, then I don't know what to tell ya.

Is the issue of discrimination against LGBT important and present? Absolutely.

Is stating that you are not part of the group that contributes to that issue something which calls for a tag, when openness is the attitude that everyone and their mother seems to have? Not at all.

And again, the issue can be better addressed by just having one tag for specifically LGBT themes. This is because that tag would do everything you say "lgbt friendly" does, without any of the problems that "lgbt friendly creates", namely the creation of the false perception that RPs without the tag are not LGBT friendly.

I'm not saying that you're wrong in stating that RPs out there without the tag are probably, for the most part, totally fine with LGBTQ+ characters. I'm saying that the tag seems to have been invented specifically for people to signal their acceptance and welcome to members/characters of a community that still gets discriminated against all over the internet and all over the world and, to those people, often coming to a place that clearly displays its allied status is a relief and a breath of fresh air. A change of pace from having to be on your guard or watching what you say or how you act. And until such a time as that discrimination no longer occurs, I don't think you can overstress the importance of having those places available to the LGBTQ+ community- whether it's at work, in bars, or on hobby sites like this one.

Yeah, the tag was if I'm not mistaken invented for that ( Fable talked about that matter early in the thread, though I can't recall the exact statement, so I may have to get backt o you on that), but again, if the use is redundant considering the regular attitude people will simply not emply it (or many won't at least, regardless of their actual attitude), so it can absolutely be overstated the importance- specifically, when stating the importance of those places grows to an extent that it starts warping the perception of other places and the places themselves.


I'd go over your last paragraph too, but I feel I would just be repeating my points, so I'll refrain from it.

I wouldn't argue that such a tag is redundant. Yes, people in this thread seem to be in agreement that being lgbt-friendly is the norm here. But let's be honest, how many people have replied to this topic? And how many users are registered on this forum? Can you really say that such a small sample size should be taken at face value as a representation for the entirety of this forum? Especially when people who are homophobic tend to stay out of these kinds of discussions.

I can see understand your skepticism, especially with you being someone who has been betrayed by people who are only half-accepting. However, it's not just that every single person on this thread has that attitude of accepting LGBT in common- it's that the site's rules for a positive environment, the fact that an LGBT tag exists in the first place, the prevailance of LGBT pairings etc... are all indicators that the site in general has this sort of attitude. It's not a perfect sample, naturally- if it was then I have no doubt we would have at least one person here who outright rejects LGBT characters from their roleplays- but it's very much representative. Even if it wasn't totally representative, it's still significant enough for the claim that being accepting of lgbt characters is the default, and that therefore a tag saying "I am also accepting of lgbt" is redundant.

And again, people going "I'll totally let people play gay characters" isn't enough to convince me that their rp will be lgbt-friendly. I've fallen for that particular trick one too many times.

Ironically though, the tag only makes such incidents more likely. Even if we ignore a number of people trying to exploit the tag for more eyeballs on their threads, a frontal statement of how open one is exactly is a lot more binding and clear than a tag that as this thread demonstrates doesn't even have a full consensus on what it means or should mean.

 

[Ayama]

There's a difference between "non-issue" and "default". When I state that it is default, it means that it is the norm, the expectation, and I'm not speaking as a member of the LGBT community there, I'm speaking as someone who makes RPs and accepts players who make those characters if they want to come into those RPs and even will roleplay certain LGBT characters and relationships myself. Because what I am speaking of is my own attitude, and the attitude other people seem to share. Whether or not it is connected to an issue, people are not going to remember or prioritize stating the obvious. Unless you are either part of the LGBT or specifically thinking of LGBT folks as you work on the interest check, odds are you either won't want to or will forget to add the tag. If you feel like it's presumptuous of me to take what people have actually said about their own attitudes, as well as the general attitude I've experienced on the site, and applying that to assess what the broader standarded attitude is, then I don't know what to tell ya.

Is the issue of discrimination against LGBT important and present? Absolutely.

Is stating that you are not part of the group that contributes to that issue something which calls for a tag, when openness is the attitude that everyone and their mother seems to have? Not at all.

And again, the issue can be better addressed by just having one tag for specifically LGBT themes. This is because that tag would do everything you say "lgbt friendly" does, without any of the problems that "lgbt friendly creates", namely the creation of the false perception that RPs without the tag are not LGBT friendly.

Yeah, the tag was if I'm not mistaken invented for that ( Fable talked about that matter early in the thread, though I can't recall the exact statement, so I may have to get backt o you on that), but again, if the use is redundant considering the regular attitude people will simply not emply it (or many won't at least, regardless of their actual attitude), so it can absolutely be overstated the importance- specifically, when stating the importance of those places grows to an extent that it starts warping the perception of other places and the places themselves.


I can see understand your skepticism, especially with you being someone who has been betrayed by people who are only half-accepting. However, it's not just that every single person on this thread has that attitude of accepting LGBT in common- it's that the site's rules for a positive environment, the fact that an LGBT tag exists in the first place, the prevailance of LGBT pairings etc... are all indicators that the site in general has this sort of attitude. It's not a perfect sample, naturally- if it was then I have no doubt we would have at least one person here who outright rejects LGBT characters from their roleplays- but it's very much representative. Even if it wasn't totally representative, it's still significant enough for the claim that being accepting of lgbt characters is the default, and that therefore a tag saying "I am also accepting of lgbt" is redundant.

Ironically though, the tag only makes such incidents more likely. Even if we ignore a number of people trying to exploit the tag for more eyeballs on their threads, a frontal statement of how open one is exactly is a lot more binding and clear than a tag that as this thread demonstrates doesn't even have a full consensus on what it means or should mean.

Even if you are correct that the 'default' on here is acceptance (which I don't think it is possible to assert simply based on this thread), I don't think you can expect members of the LGBTQ+ community to automatically be aware of that. It's like you're told your entire life that no one likes tomatoes and it's weird to like tomatoes, and then you move to a town where everyone loves tomatoes. Unless there's a big ol' sign at the town entrance saying 'WE LOVE TOMATOES HERE!', you're not going to think that loving tomatoes is now a normal and accepted thing.

I do agree with your point that the tags for different kinds of pairings, the LGBTQ friendly tag, and the gender and sexuality sections present in most character sheets make this site overall more openly LGBTQ+ friendly and accepting than a lot of other places. I just don't think it's to the point where that is recognized as the default and the tag is totally unhelpful or unnecessary- it represents it as a viable option, but not as the norm.

And that fact is precisely why I think it's so important to emphasize being open and accepting and an ally through the use of the tag (though again I only think this works if there are separate tags for LGBTQ-friendly and LGBTQ-focused, to avoid confusion). I'm not saying you have to but I'm saying that, if it is how you feel, members of the community will greatly appreciate the feeling of comfort and security (which, oftentimes, they rarely get to experience elsewhere) afforded by knowing it right off the bat.

 

[zippy]

Don't get me wrong- like the others who have expressed this view in the thread, I reiterate that it's great that you guys think this is such a non-issue that it shouldn't even have to be specified that threads are LGBTQ+-friendly on here. But I also can't help but notice that many of the people who have said this don't seem to be a part of the community (or at least have not mentioned that they are)? And if that's the case it seems a little, I don't know, presumptuous maybe? Not speaking for anybody else, but the feeling I get from that is kind of like you're saying "Why are you getting upset over something that isn't even an issue?". And if you aren't actually part of that community that does get discriminated against and does have to deal with said issue, maybe this should be modified to specify that this isn't an issue for you specifically and others on here who feel the same way- not that it isn't an issue period, because it is.

Forgive me if I’m misunderstanding, but I feel you are construing this to larger themes than are necessary. Of course I cannot speak for anyone else’s intentions, but when I spoke here I was speaking only about how actions on the site should be perceived and how you (OP) could possibly be missing out on great roleplays if you ignore threads without the tag. I won’t rehash my points for why I don’t/rarely will use the tag as it would just be needlessly repetitive. However, I do want to say two additional things.

Firstly, anything that I have said was solely about this site (RPNation). I feel my opinion has been misconstrued to the point where it hardly represents what I initially said. By no means am I discrediting anyone’s experiences or saying that discrimination is not an issue. Especially in the real world. Any RP community is hardly going to be an equally weighted representation of the real world. For that reason, expected experiences and norms may be separate from what someone can or may be experiencing in their actual lives.

Second, I do not consider myself to be a part of the LGBTQ+ community, but I will be firm when I say that this is hardly relevant to the discussion as hand. As was clarified before, the tag applies to in character operations rather than anything out of character, and while you may use it to guess how a player may be OOC it says nothing of the sort explicitly. For that reason, my sexuality or the community I identify with does not make my opinion anymore naive or uninformed than the next person. What I think is much more relevant is the types of characters that I do actually play. So yes, I have played gay character. I have played bisexual characters. I have played asexual characters. In fact, for a large portion of my writing “career” I was exclusively playing gay males. My opinion reflects these experiences and my simple advice was trialed by yours truly.

So I guess I will reiterate one point: just ask. While it may be easier to simply filter out any RP that does not include the tag, I think you’ll find yourself pleasantly surprised by the number of RP concepts you enjoy that don’t employ the tag and yet still would be welcoming of your characters.

 

[Idea]

(which I don't think it is possible to assert simply based on this thread)

owever, it's not just that every single person on this thread has that attitude of accepting LGBT in common- it's that the site's rules for a positive environment, the fact that an LGBT tag exists in the first place, the prevailance of LGBT pairings etc...

Plus plenty of other discussion threads, and pretty much every RP I've encountered or participated on in here. You don't need this thread to see just how open RPN is to LGBT. What this thread does show is that even people who don't use the tag are still probably LGBT friendly, and that is generally either already treated like an expected thing OR the tag is actually added.

I don't think you can expect members of the LGBTQ+ community to automatically be aware of that.

Which I don't, as pointed out in my previous response.

While I can see where you are coming from- new people to the site wouldn't know how the site operates, I stand firm in the position that a single tag for LGBT-specific topics makes more sense than multiple tags for the various types of "acceptance", and much more than one that is entirely redundant from the perspective of the person picking what among a limited number of tags to include in their RP. If you are someone who is new to the site and have such concerns in mind to the point where you can't either (A) takes the risk with it almost certainly paying off (since the vast majority of RPs even without the specific tag are lgbt-friendly) or (B) ask, then you won't particularly care that the LGBT tag is specifically for RPs dealing with LGBT themes (in this hypothetical scenario), in fact you are probably looking for an RP like that.

On the other hand, more advanced players who should already be familiar with the site's general attitude on this matter can still be mislead by the tag being there or lack thereof. Unlike the new player who wouldn't be missing out much either way, these players are definitely missing out on what could be important options for them.

I could also add that again, emphasizing certain locations as "lgbt friendly" may lead to short-term comfort, but it has the opposite effect in the long-term. It isolates players who like to play those types of characters in a much smaller field than the one they would actually be happy playing in if they just gave it a shot, places which though not labelled that way are still accepting of them. It gives people the wrong idea. If the site did indeed have a rampant culture of beign adverse against this type of things, then a tag indicating a safe haven might be justified, but as it stands it's like giving an agoraphobic comfy room with everything they could need. By playing directly into a fear that isn't (at least in this circumstance) justified, oe risks detracting from the experience, not adding to it.

 

[The Dark Wizard]

While the discussion shouldn’t end, we are listening and gathering feedback.

 

[zippy]

Well I guess since you’re watching....

Rereading through everyone’s comments I think the sub-genre itself is a bit too vague and leaves too much open to interpretation. If LGBT Friendly is meant to imply that LGBT characters are welcomed and encouraged, then I think it fits better as a tag and a separate LGBT sub genre would actually not be redundant.

The way that I interpret it is that once it is included as a sub genre, it because it’s a relevant and significant part of the roleplay’s plot. For example there is a KRP sub genre. When you use this sub genre it isn’t to signify that korean characters are welcome, but rather it is signaling that a significant portion of the plot will be centered around Korean culture in some manner.

Actually, looking more into the different tags and sub genres, the LGBT Friendly sub genre seems to be the only that is used in a way that signals that certain characters are welcome. Perhaps if not changing things, an explanation as to the sites intentions would be necessary in the sub genre thread? This way, players aren’t applying arbitrary meaning and unsure what their fellow writers mean when they include or don’t include it. This confusion could be rectified by a site wide explanation of what this particular sub genre means. (similar to how we approach questions about whether a roleplay would fit into fantasy, realistic, or futuristic headings).

 

[ashwynne]

I'm going to reiterate again that I think the sub-genre is misnamed as a bare minimum.

Clearly, people find it valuable to have some sort of LGBTQ related filter term when it comes to searching through requests, but it doesn't serve its intended purpose if the meaning behind it can vary from person to person--which it obviously does.
Every other sub-genre is extremely clear cut. Nobody has to guess what any of them mean.

I'm including the list here for easy comparisons sake:

Spoiler: Current List of Sub Genres

• Action
• Adventure
• Anime
• AU
• Cyberpunk
• Dystopian
• Foreign
• Harry Potter
• Historical
• Horror
• KRP
• LGTBQ Friendly
• Magical
• Meta
• Multiverse
• Mystery
• Naruto Universe
• Platonic
• Pokemon
• Realistic
• Romance
• School
• Slice of Life
• Star Wars
• Super Powers
• Supernatural
• Zombies

It's painstakingly clear that LGTBQ friendly is the odd one out.

In my mind, this discussion would be a lot more productive if we stopped focusing the debate on whether discrimination exists (obviously it does to varying extents no matter where we go) and turned instead to how we can narrow down this tag to make it serviceable to everyone and more effective in general.

What I'm gathering from this thread is that there are three main desires/needs/viewpoints of what the tag means:

1. All characters will have a place in the RP, regardless of orientation/gender identity/etc. (assuming they're a good fit for the roleplay beyond that)
2. Players from the LGBTQ community are welcome
3. The plot is LGTBQ centered

To me, it seems redundant to have that second feature (which points to the "friendly" part) because if you're fine with having characters of all sexualities in the roleplay then it's fairly obvious that players in the community are also going to be welcome by default (usually won't have one without the other, after all).

At the same time, all the other sub-genres focus on setting and theme. Context clues are pretty critical and when you see something on a list surrounded by other terms that indicate setting and theme, you're naturally going to assume that this is applicable to "LGTBQ friendly" as well. The trouble, as we've established, is that "LGTBQ friendly" is neither a descriptor of setting or theme, so it doesn't fit. That's probably why the understanding of how it can/should be used is varying so much.

My initial thought is that shortening it to LGBTQ might be a good start in addition to adding tags for something like "LGBTQ inclusive."

Then you have a sub genre that indicates the plot or setting revolves around LGBTQ themes in addition to a separate tag that can be added that indicates inclusivity. I feel this would satisfy all three groups and be an easier way to make the thread filter more efficient. I imagine you'd have less people using it erroneously on threads that are only wanting m/f, m/m, f/f etc. etc. but want to appear friendly to the community.

Just preliminary thoughts though, I imagine there are others who can come up with a better way of narrowing it down, this is really just an example.

 

[Idea]

Clearly, people find it valuable to have some sort of LGBTQ related filter term when it comes to searching through requests, but it doesn't serve its intended purpose if the meaning behind it can vary from person to person--which it obviously does.

In my mind, this discussion would be a lot more productive if we stopped focusing the debate on whether discrimination exists (obviously it does to varying extents no matter where we go) and turned instead to how we can narrow down this tag to make it serviceable to everyone and more effective in general.

What I proposed earlier, as a counter-proposal to the "two distinct tags" suggestion, was a single "lgbt" tag/subgenre that would imply "focused on LGBT relationships or themes". This, I believe, is more than enough for any reasonable purpose that could be given to it:
- it would create an lgbt-specific tag that would clearly delineate a particular kind of story to explore in the RP
-it would be a safe, easily filterable place for any looking to easily find roleplays that are open for lgbt without wanting to deal with the (incredibly) small chance of the RP not being friendly.

furthermore, it wouldn't have certain disadvantages other ideas proposed here have or would have:
-it would not create two tags when one can serve just fine
-it would not encourage players that in reality are welcome in almost every roleplay to bury themselves within a much more limited set of roleplays, therefore limiting their own possibilities.

The one big disadavantage to this method (that I see) would be many lgbt-friendly roleplays would not fall under the new label. However, that is always inevitably going to be the case, because the lgbt-friendly thing is taken as a default by many people, and as such, often found missing from the thread even if it would apply.

 

[mikaluvkitties]

Hey! It’s taken me awhile to do this because honestly this entire thing is so much more tiring than I thought it would be, but I’m so tired of seeing my original point being misread to the point people think I think that I will be flat out turned away for being bi.

Before I clear things up, I’d like to thank Fable for stepping in and clarifying what the LGTBQ Friendly tag was meant to be. It helped me understand a lot more than I previously did, even if I do personally feel that for its purpose LGTBQ would have been clearer, as LGTBQ means we’re centering the issues of the community, while LGTBQ Friendly... doesn't, at least not in my personal experience.

With that out of the way, I have a bit I’d like to say.

The usage of the LGBTQ Friendly tag automatically sets me at ease because I immediately know that not only am I 'welcome', but I am seen, and that if someone pulls something out of line I can go to the gm, and, because a lot of settings have a lot of this shit built in, the gm will quite possibly be making a conscious effort to avoid harmful stereotypes such as associating behaviors of queer people with villainy (not saying you can't have queer villains, but when a majority of your protagonists are straight and the villain is notably queer... bud...).

In essence, I won't just be there. I'll be heard. I won't be alienated to the point I feel I need to leave because of the queerphobic- yeah, I said it- shit that people are pulling, either on purpose or on accident.

And you can't turn around after the conversation we have been having where people are constantly speaking over the openly queer individuals speaking to invalidate their opinions and uplift their own because they somehow have more firsthand knowledge than the actual members of the group and tell me you don't have any queerphobia left to extinguish because part of the deal is we all do. All of us. Even me.

Also, a lot of rps with roles in my experience don’t seem designed with those outside of the cishetero norm in mind, and having a way to get those out of the way because if they didn’t think through the roles enough to leave room for trans people or lesbians, they aren’t going to think to put in the five seconds of extra effort to add a simple little sub genre? I like that. A lot.

 

[ashwynne]

The one big disadavantage to this method (that I see) would be many lgbt-friendly roleplays would not fall under the new label. However, that is always inevitably going to be the case, because the lgbt-friendly thing is taken as a default by many people, and as such, often found missing from the thread even if it would apply.

Right, which is why I think adding the sub genre as LGBTQ (as you suggested) in addition to having a tag (not another sub-genre, but a tag like "witches," "m/m," "f/f," etc.) might eliminate that disadvantage entirely without adding another term to the "main" overarching list.

That way, if my RP is futuristic, I can still include a tag for "LGBTQ inclusive" to further indicate that the RP is welcome to those characters that fall within the community. You'd still run into some of the same problems (with people not seeing the point unless the RP is focused on romance where sexualities are relevant) but at least it would still allow the option for those who want to include while also not being such a glaring issue.

I've been playing with the thread filter to sort of see how this might work, and I'd say it's fair to say that RP categories are broken down into a three-pronged hierarchy:

1. Prefixes
2. Sub-genres
3. Tags

With the modifying of the current sub-genre and an addition of an official tag, a roleplay can be broken down like so:
[Prefix: Futuristic] The Other Side
Sub Genres: LGBTQ, Action, Horror, Mystery, Realistic
Tags: space, space opera
In which a small spacecraft operated by a team of highly skilled LGBTQ characters find themselves inadvertently sucked through a black hole into a cosmos utterly foreign to them.

OR:

[Prefix: Futuristic] The Other Side
Sub Genres: Action, Horror, Mystery, Realistic
Tags: space, space opera, LGBTQ inclusive
In which a small spacecraft operated by a highly skilled team find themselves inadvertently sucked through a black hole into a cosmos utterly foreign to them.

I feel the benefit of having a tag added is pretty obvious here. It allows for the GM to make it very clear that LGBTQ characters/themes are either the focus (via sub-genre), OR simply welcome in the RP. A tag has a much wider application in this sense; it's still used for sorting in the thread filter, but it doesn't confuse the issue by making an RP seem to be about LGBTQ issues when it actually isn't. This allows for people searching for an RP to have more control about what their searches bring up, AND I feel it's more likely that a GM will use that kind of tag.

I think that having just the LGBTQ sub-genre doesn't quite go far enough to specify since there are two very different issues at play here (inclusivity of LGBTQ characters and LGBTQ-centered plots). Adding a tag solves this issue and categorizes character inclusivity appropriately in the same category as m/m and f/f which makes sense as tags tend to be reserved more for specific character types anyways.

mikaluvkitties

And you can't turn around after the conversation we have been having where people are constantly speaking over the openly queer individuals speaking to invalidate their opinions and uplift their own because they somehow have more firsthand knowledge than the actual members of the group and tell me you don't have any queerphobia left to extinguish because part of the deal is we all do. All of us. Even me.

I mean... if you didn't want anyone beyond people in the queer community to speak up then that should be included in the OP. I don't think anyone has been trying to invalidate anyone else, we're all just trying to make our opinions heard. Disagreeing with someone or having a different opinion doesn't automatically equal queerphobia. You're not going to see any positive change happen if you try to exclude or invalidate the opinions of people outside the community either. It goes both ways when it comes to working towards mutual respect and kindness.

If anything I think that this has been an extremely positive experience with people coming to understand the various ways in which people see the sub-genre. Ultimately, we have people now wanting/discussing a solution that makes the tag/sub-genre more effective at its job and we know the staff is watching. It's an opportunity to further improve the site for everyone (specifically people who want/use the tag) and trying to devolve it into an "us vs them" discussion is not productive imo. Especially since nobody is against the tag and overwhelmingly are supportive of the queer community... just not necessarily the way the tag is currently being used.

 

[Idea]

I feel the benefit of having a tag added is pretty obvious here. It allows for the GM to make it very clear that LGBTQ characters/themes are either the focus (via sub-genre), OR simply welcome in the RP. A tag has a much wider application in this sense; it's still used for sorting in the thread filter, but it doesn't confuse the issue by making an RP seem to be about LGBTQ issues when it actually isn't. This allows for people searching for an RP to have more control about what their searches bring up, AND I feel it's more likely that a GM will use that kind of tag.

See the issue is that it creates the implication, false implication mind you, that an RP which doesn't have the tag is not welcoming of LGBT characters.

 

[ashwynne]

See the issue is that it creates the implication, false implication mind you, that an RP which doesn't have the tag is not welcoming of LGBT characters.

I mean... kind of, but that's basically the current issue with the tag now anyways. The word "friendly" confuses the issue and makes it seem to be more about the player than the character. From this thread it's clear that some people assume the absence of the sub-genre means the RP isn't LGBTQ friendly. Period. Even if that's not the case. Alternatively, its inclusion doesn't necessarily indicate that the RP is actually LGBTQ character friendly (at least not broadly) which is the second issue at play.

If we only have the LGBTQ sub-genre then we're most likely going to have a drop in usage of it (as it will then equate more with setting/theme to fit the other sub-genre options, meaning people currently using it to indicate inclusivity won't find it applicable). On a broad scale this might seem fine, but a lot of people seem to be using it to filter GM's/RP's that are intentional in their inclusion. Allowing for a tag that shows a bit of extra attention on the GM's part will appeal to those people. All while not cluttering up the sub-genre section.

It just seems like a simpler solution that appeals to a broader range of people. Doing it this way refrains from cutting down the number of applicable RP's that people looking specifically for inclusivity can search for too.

I'm kind of thinking while I go though, so by all means, poke holes in it xD

 

[Ayama]

I don't think OP meant that non-LGBTQ+ community member opinions were not welcome. I just think that this thread seems to stem from concern that a member of that community has, and a desire to find out why people do or don't use the tag in their RPs (which, btw, it has done beautifully- the notion that so many people don't use the tag not only because of the possible confusion it could lead to but because they assume all RPs to be LGBTQ+ friendly/accepting by default is something I had no idea about until I read this thread). And I think that's kind of the point: LGBTQ+ community members often are made to feel like they are not welcome and not the norm so, even if it is different on here, you can't really expect them to somehow know that and act accordingly, hence the desire/need for the tag.

Again, it seems to me like most people who have declared it to be a 'non-issue' on RPN are people who haven't necessarily experienced the discomfort that can come with being a member of that community and not feeling welcome, and though the explanation that they don't view it as necessary because it's the default is wonderful, and gives me all the warm fuzzies, it doesn't seem to acknowledge the desire/feelings of those in that community, who want to feel included and know they will be welcome, and for whom the tag obviously fulfills that purpose. And ashwynne I think your solution is excellent and quite elegant, and I hope the mods will seriously consider it ^^

 

[Coco Adel]

I use it to express the fact that everyone is welcome, nothing more and nothing less really.

 

[ashwynne]

Ayama
Ah okay, I see your point. I didn't read it that way but I see how I may have misinterpreted it in which case I apologize!

In case it needs to be said... for my part I fully acknowledge that the reasons behind feeling discomfort are totally valid and understandable. My position that LGBTQ friendliness a non-issue isn't reflective of me thinking it's actually a non-issue, but rather that it should be (and that the tag being named that is misleading).

My actual concern here, in this discussion, is that the tag is not being utilized to its fullest potential and that people in the queer community might be missing out on opportunities for great roleplays because things are mis-labeled or people aren't taking advantage of the tag because it's a bit confusing.

I simply want to help brainstorm a way to make it a better tool for people to use. It has nothing to do with me wanting to invalidate the opinions of people who like the current system/see a need for it, but rather me wanting to make it even better. I firmly believe there's an opportunity here to rework the sub-genre in a way that clarifies things and makes things easier for like minded people to find each other and write. Just wanted to throw that out there so everyone knows where I'm coming from

And I'm glad you like the suggestion! I still think someone else could probably come up with better names/exact labels for the sub-genre/tag rework idea, but it's a start!

 

[Ayama]

Ayama
Ah okay, I see your point. I didn't read it that way but I see how I may have misinterpreted it in which case I apologize!

In case it needs to be said... for my part I fully acknowledge that the reasons behind feeling discomfort are totally valid and understandable. My position that LGBTQ friendliness a non-issue isn't reflective of me thinking it's actually a non-issue, but rather that it should be (and that the tag being named that is misleading).

My actual concern here, in this discussion, is that the tag is not being utilized to its fullest potential and that people in the queer community might be missing out on opportunities for great roleplays because things are mis-labeled or people aren't taking advantage of the tag because it's a bit confusing.

I simply want to help brainstorm a way to make it a better tool for people to use. It has nothing to do with me wanting to invalidate the opinions of people who like the current system/see a need for it, but rather me wanting to make it even better. I firmly believe there's an opportunity here to rework the sub-genre in a way that clarifies things and makes things easier for like minded people to find each other and write. Just wanted to throw that out there so everyone knows where I'm coming from

And I'm glad you like the suggestion! I still think someone else could probably come up with better names/exact labels for the sub-genre/tag rework idea, but it's a start!

I completely agree with everything in this post xD

 

[Gowi]

To add onto my previous point: I'm queer myself, so my use of the tag is more out of using tags that are more connected to a RPs genre than its themes. Lacking a LGBT tag does not indicated a bigoted nature.

 

[Dede]

And you can't turn around after the conversation we have been having where people are constantly speaking over the openly queer individuals speaking to invalidate their opinions and uplift their own because they somehow have more firsthand knowledge than the actual members of the group and tell me you don't have any queerphobia left to extinguish because part of the deal is we all do. All of us. Even me.

I admit I find this part of your comment baffling. As your friend I will try to speak frankly. If people here argue a position contrary to yours, it does not automatically mean they are being queerphobic, or are trying to shut you down or invalidate your personal experiences. It just means they rather believe in so and so for the reasons that they have stated. However, if you are not interested in the opinion of people outside the LGBTQ community, perhaps a little disclaimer would have been useful.

Setting aside the fundamental issue I have with the idea that everyone is queerphobic to a varying extent, I would argue that the responses you have received so far have all been anything but queerphobic. It gives me hope. If somehow you have detected signs of queerphobia here, however, you may be actively looking for discrimination where there is none.

I encourage people to reconsider limiting themselves to searching only for 'LGBTQ friendly' roleplays, precisely because it accentuates a sense of isolation which should not exist in a creative space like RPN. I have a feeling it may do more harm than good ultimately, but of course you can do whatever you like and whatever makes you feel comfortable. By the same token, however, the idea some people seem to have that RP creators are doing a disservice or being discriminatory by not including the tag is precisely why I strongly believe this tag should not exist in the first place -- or at least not in its present form.

 

[Idea]

If we only have the LGBTQ sub-genre then we're most likely going to have a drop in usage of it (as it will then equate more with setting/theme to fit the other sub-genre options, meaning people currently using it to indicate inclusivity won't find it applicable). On a broad scale this might seem fine, but a lot of people seem to be using it to filter GM's/RP's that are intentional in their inclusion. Allowing for a tag that shows a bit of extra attention on the GM's part will appeal to those people. All while not cluttering up the sub-genre section.

Yes, you'd most likely see a drop in usage, but that's not really a problem. Allow me to explain:
---> a player yet unfamiliar with the community may have every reason to believe that rolepays without the label are not lgbt friendly, or at least be afraid of the possibility and therefore only want to go into RPs which do have the label. However, these players would be just fine with a more limited number of roleplay options: not only do new players tend to be more open in their roleplay choices (as a roleplayer gains more experience, they also tend to narrow down their own interests, but they tend to start out quite broad), but they also tend to need less roleplays.

--->the label will never, as you put it, "be used to its full potential". As such, though lgbt players may be uncomfortable with it at first (entirely within reason) one wants to encourage them to feel more comfortable stepping out of the innitial box the label creates. They are not expected to come knowing how RPN is, but as they learn more about the community here the fact that it extremely open should naturally become more appearant, and allow them to maybe experiment with RPs that don't have the label, not by being forced into it, but by feeling comfortable doing so.
The "lgbt friendly" tag would increase the number of available RPs for them, I give you that, but it would also encourage people to isolate themselves within such groups, and create the misconception I've been talking about, when in fact their real options are much broader than that. Tha tag at first provides an increase, but in the long term decreases the options.
Put in other words, essentially what Dede said in the last paragraph of the post above this one.

 

[Crayons]

Right, which is why I think adding the sub genre as LGBTQ (as you suggested) in addition to having a tag (not another sub-genre, but a tag like "witches," "m/m," "f/f," etc.) might eliminate that disadvantage entirely without adding another term to the "main" overarching list.

That way, if my RP is futuristic, I can still include a tag for "LGBTQ inclusive" to further indicate that the RP is welcome to those characters that fall within the community. You'd still run into some of the same problems (with people not seeing the point unless the RP is focused on romance where sexualities are relevant) but at least it would still allow the option for those who want to include while also not being such a glaring issue.

I've been playing with the thread filter to sort of see how this might work, and I'd say it's fair to say that RP categories are broken down into a three-pronged hierarchy:

1. Prefixes
2. Sub-genres
3. Tags

With the modifying of the current sub-genre and an addition of an official tag, a roleplay can be broken down like so:
[Prefix: Futuristic] The Other Side
Sub Genres: LGBTQ, Action, Horror, Mystery, Realistic
Tags: space, space opera
In which a small spacecraft operated by a team of highly skilled LGBTQ characters find themselves inadvertently sucked through a black hole into a cosmos utterly foreign to them.

OR:

[Prefix: Futuristic] The Other Side
Sub Genres: Action, Horror, Mystery, Realistic
Tags: space, space opera, LGBTQ inclusive
In which a small spacecraft operated by a highly skilled team find themselves inadvertently sucked through a black hole into a cosmos utterly foreign to them.

I feel the benefit of having a tag added is pretty obvious here. It allows for the GM to make it very clear that LGBTQ characters/themes are either the focus (via sub-genre), OR simply welcome in the RP. A tag has a much wider application in this sense; it's still used for sorting in the thread filter, but it doesn't confuse the issue by making an RP seem to be about LGBTQ issues when it actually isn't. This allows for people searching for an RP to have more control about what their searches bring up, AND I feel it's more likely that a GM will use that kind of tag.

I think that having just the LGBTQ sub-genre doesn't quite go far enough to specify since there are two very different issues at play here (inclusivity of LGBTQ characters and LGBTQ-centered plots). Adding a tag solves this issue and categorizes character inclusivity appropriately in the same category as m/m and f/f which makes sense as tags tend to be reserved more for specific character types anyways.

This is an elegant solution, and if anyone wants to make that RP with the LGBTQ people in a wormhole I'll join it. XD

I just want to add for all the "but everyone in this thread is positive about LGBTQ!!" people: People who are not OK with it, either bigoted or ill-informed or just plain not interested in LGBTQ issues are not going to be reading or commenting in this thread. If I saw a thread saying "Hey let's talk about ice cream!" and I just don't like ice cream or desserts in general, I'm probably not going to be reading that thread never mind adding my opinion. It's at worst disingenuous and at best naive to suggest that this thread represents the entirety of people's attitudes to LGBTQ on this site.

 

[Idea]

I just want to add for all the "but everyone in this thread is positive about LGBTQ!!" people: People who are not OK with it, either bigoted or ill-informed or just plain not interested in LGBTQ issues are not going to be reading or commenting in this thread. If I saw a thread saying "Hey let's talk about ice cream!" and I just don't like ice cream or desserts in general, I'm probably not going to be reading that thread never mind adding my opinion. It's at worst disingenuous and at best naive to suggest that this thread represents the entirety of people's attitudes to LGBTQ on this site.

The ones doing it for outright discriminatory reasons wouldn't, but given the thread's question was "why do you or do you not use the sub genre", someone with a rationalized justification for not wanting LGBT characters would still post on this, as the thread seemed specifically open for that option.

 

[Fable]

This was honestly the sub-genre of concern when we originally started setting things up for the filter. Filter options are weird on quite a few sites. There is a "Dementia" filter option on MAL which is just - in my opinion - redundant because it's basically under psychological as a genre. Each filter has its issues and it's why we have left up the suggestion thread so we can adapt and change it as needed and used by the community.

Staff appreciate the input from everyone involved in this discussion because it helps us understand better how this particular included sub-genre in the filter is being used and perceived. We approached it based on what we saw within the community interest. Just like there is a large interest in Harry Potter or KRP there is a large interest in LGTBQ+ as well. Not surprising since we consider RpNation to be inclusive and open to everyone. The option was set to allow members to better connect to the types of roleplays they were seeking using the filter.

The other sub-genres are pretty straight forward but the one being discussed here we understand now is confusing. We want to find an option that still allows users to filter content to help them seek out the roleplays they are specifically searching for without the confusion of what LGTBQ Friendly might mean. It's actually quite difficult.

Adding in "LGTBQ Inclusive" as a tag is an option but can make other threads and GMs who are completely open and don't care if a character is queer or cisgender can be excluded from a search because they didn't include the tag. It could have slipped their mind, they might have not been able to add it because there is a max limit of 10 tags allowed, or they didn't realize it was a tag at all.

Now, keep in mind Staff are still discussing everything. Please do not assume what I've written or commented here as things that will for certain be implemented, changed, or removed.

An issue is communicating the purpose/use without having to write a special op-ed for a single filter or tag option as well as how the community wants to use it/view it.

The question is what can be used to relay information that LGTBQ+ characters and themes are the focus of a rolepay and that if it is not used does not give the impression they are excluded from a roleplay.

We can easily add multiple tags if they are needed, we just don't want to get crazy with the sub-genres because we know interface wise it's already a long list which can get out of hand quickly if more is added.

Things I've been pondering on as options (tags) would be:
LGTBQ Characters
LGTBQ Focused
LGTBQ Pairings (elsewhere on the site there have been mentions that current tag pairings is lacking)