Diceless System

[Grey]

And now for a misadventure in reinventing the wheel. This is basically stream-of-consciousness but feel free to chime in while I consider the assemblage of something more coherent and complete.


The intent of this thread is to devise a diceless system which is robust enough to generally serve the RPN community.


How can we represent character mechanically without a conflict resolution mechanic reliant on chance?


I'm going to start with something echoing Nobilis or Amber, and then probably abandon it in favour of just using one of those in future.


Probably going to start broad, realize that's boring, and zero in one something. Narrative mechanics will likely be king of the day, and that makes the social contract between players and GM paramount.


To represent characters we should have minimum 3 stats. For more variance, we'll rate them 0 - 5. Tasks need a guideline for similar ratings, with higher number beating the lower number. Applies equally to competitive and confrontational obstacles. Add a resource or resources to be used to gain an edge - Numenera had a similar model that seemed functional, Nobilis basically had miracle points. Very binary, though. Spend-Over feels preferable to Spend-To, but perhaps something else can be arranged.


Potential other uses - gain narrative control over something, alter the parameters of the conflict, modify results, apply results.


Feels a bit FATE-y. Sufficiently robust mechanics - without descending into a game of pure numerical optimization - will require a thematic focus.


Any other resolutions to consider? Blind bid - probably not. Cards? Maybe - unwieldy in a PBP format. Yet more tracks? Multiple resource types? Double-bluff (could be good for something explicitly based around some manner of skillful duel)?


To consider; setting, density of mechanics. Better get some reading material.

 

[Quilboarian]

As horrible of a system it is, I've always done it with me being the supreme master of fate, who can, in theory, dictate the result of any action according to my whim. Like an ABC choice game, except one where the players make whatever decision they want, and I generate an outcome on the spot.


Though, in practice, I would reason out the most-likely outcome according to the circumstances, and factor in the level of detail and description used in the post describing the action. If need be, I'd generate a dice-roll to decide something.


It was totally easy for me to just be biased, though- but people could argue about things and ask questions. My aim was to just create interesting scenarios that they'd react to, and keep them entertained.


I don't know why I posted this, since it's hardly a suggestion. But I always have thought about creating a more structured version of what I originallly came up with a long time ago.

 

[Blumenkranz]

Blind bid is probably the only type of diceless system (without taking card-based systems into account, but I consider those dice-like) that can still keep the suspense of a diced system.


100% deterministic systems will never provide enough depth due to their nature, both to combat and opposed tasks. For example, I have a character with "Trap Deactivation" skill level 3, and there is a fairly complex trap in front of me, which I approximate that will need a level 5 Trap Deactivation skill to break it without accidentally making a giant boulder fall over the party. Why even bother with it? In a diced system, I could try to expect a good roll or even a critical roll that would allow me to disable it, but here it is better to just find another path because this one is blocked by a metatrap.


In addition, narration-based systems won't be much different from freeform. It will be "because the GM says so", which can be good if the GM is good, but it's definitely not a system and therefore will have no need for actual numbers crunching. If a character is supposed to be good at deactivating traps (an Indiana Jones-like adventurer, a rogue, a techie, etc), they will be able to deactivate it because it makes sense. Narration-based roleplays (freeform, for example) are supposed to be more relaxed, mostly focusing on interaction with other players and the environment, knowing where your character's limits are and with very little lethality unless people are trying to do something very stupid. Narration systems are there to make good stories with almost non-existant combat and lots of puzzles, and putting numbers on them will just add an unnecessary layer of complexity that won't actually give any extra depth to the game.


Blind bid is actually a very neat concept. Your characters have a pool of points they have to manage, and they have to "pay" with those points in order to solve any possible conflicts. The task is to evaluate correctly the difficulty you are trying to beat (which makes PvP become even more vicious and exciting), and to spend the exact amount of points to avoid wasting them. Likewise, it also forces the players to cooperate to avoid wasting a single player's points, so in some sense you could say the party "shares" a common pool.


The alternative could be making a 100% deterministic system with so many situational modifiers your players would never be able to memorize them (maybe guess what possible modifiers may be applying, but there could be not so obvious ones), but this sounds much more complicated and slow than a traditional diced system or the others mentioned above, so I personally wouldn't recommend it.

 

[TV Head]

Dice are not the only way to conflict resolute via chance.

Sure they're a bit easier to mess up and probably more complicated than picking up and rolling, but it also allows for a bit more of a measure of strategy.

 

[Grey]

[QUOTE="TV Head]Dice are not the only way to conflict resolute via chance.

Sure they're a bit easier to mess up and probably more complicated than picking up and rolling, but it also allows for a bit more of a measure of strategy.

[/QUOTE]
Indeed, I'd like to use cards for certain things, but there's no system in place for using them on the site.

 

[Shining Lotus Sage]

SoC responsum:

• I loved Numenera, but I can't remember why. I'll tell you when I have half an hour to reread its mechanical resolution.
  
• Dragonlance had that lovely card system, where you drew a whole hand and chose when you wanted to play which. Suspense, but from resource management instead of random chance.
  
• Marvel Universe RPG did what I still think is the best bid/blind-bid system. You have a limited pool of energy with a trickle-in regeneration, and you have to budget your effort to make use of that. Extended actions become harrowing.
  

 

[Grey]

I plan to look into the MU RPG for just that reason.


I'm not bothering with cards right now - that's a project for another day, and after I get to run Malifaux.

 

[Shining Lotus Sage]

Steal the idea without the broken mechanics. I'll show you a good fix when I get back home.

 

[welian]

I'm going to keep an eye on this thread, and support everyone working in here.

 

[Shining Lotus Sage]

Okay. Can't find the website I was linked to, because the guy who was paying hosting costs is now dead. Fortunately, I anticipated this problem and spidered the whole thing a year or so back. It's based on work from this forum, which hasn't been updated in five years. The biggest revisions are setting- and genre-dependent, though the system is specifically tuned for the late-90s supers genre. Independent edits are mostly to which stats should affect which parts of the energy economy, and how to price particular degrees of control over the world.

 

[Grey]

Cheers, Sage.


I will now withdraw to my hidden sanctum and dwell on these texts.

 

[welian]

While assuming Gendo pose, yes?

 

[Grey]

Of course. I'll even take a picture.

 

[The 7th Bard]

I remember a time we attempted this on a bus ride to indiana, we ended up determining if it was a success entirely based on the skills, we ranked EVERYTHING and determined success that way.

 

[Grey]

May meld these projects as a supporting structure.