Demons residing in Creation

[Flagg]

I've been thinking about ancient mythological demons, like Grendel from Beowulf, and how they could be represented in Exalted.


What do you guys think the likelihood is that a powerful demon could be living freely and fairly permanently in Creation?


Being outside of Fate, a smart demon could probably hide from the Sidereals pretty well, and if it had a remote enough lair, it could avoid the Wyld Hunt as well. What other problems might one face?


-S

 

[MikeOQuinn]

I'm thinking a sort of The Village-type scenario, where the demon(s) are keeping a small area in thrall to further their needs. Perhaps by creating taboos and boundries and fear, that demon gains power, standing, jollies, etc.


The main obstacle that a demon in this situation would face would be the curiosity of the beings within his domain. He'd eventually wind up having to kill lots of them to make sure they didn't make it outside or report his presence back to their home.


As for the likelihood that it could happen, I'd say it's pretty high. So long as they have some source of continuing power (if their power functions like that of the gods, where they need a continual source a'la worship and taboos), and a plausible hideaway (forest, an island, a volcano, etc), I see no reason that a demon wouldn't be able to exist on his own. It's not like they're allergic to Creation, just that they generally aren't welcome.


The 13^th Warrior also comes to mind as a possible source of inspiration for something like this.


[Edit: Added to the original.]

 

[psychoph]

I was reading time of timult last night and there are like 5000 demons free in creation up near the invisible manse that the Sidereals have never found.  Wasn't there also a demon that killed a solar int he First age and took that person's place within the Solar Deliberative?  


I could see a very powerful and highly intelligent Demon staying in creation, as long as it is able to keep it's base desires fulfilled without limit breaking to often, and when it does limit break it does it in such a manner that it leaves nothing left to tell the tale.  I.E. every hundred years a villiage that is far far form its lair gets completely destroyed.

 

[Flagg]

I was reading time of timult last night and there are like 5000 demons free in creation up near the invisible manse that the Sidereals have never found.

Yes, but they're bound, not free. They're more or less stuck on the mountain and it's surrounds.

I could see a very powerful and highly intelligent Demon staying in creation, as long as it is able to keep it's base desires fulfilled without limit breaking to often, and when it does limit break it does it in such a manner that it leaves nothing left to tell the tale.

Aren't the Limit rules for demons only for those bound to a Sorceror?


-S

 

[Jakk Bey]

Pesky servants of the Malfeans for one. They are somewhat rivals. Allies at times, but still the Malfeans and the Yozi have different motives.


There's also the nasty habit for Demons to get called up. Yes, a Demon has managed to slip his bonds, but there's still a chance that a Sorcerer gets its name out of the hat, or a book, and calls it up for service. Slip one bond, and there's still a chance that another might want to get it.


Which means a smart Demon will look for all references to it, and work like hell to erase them. Followers and cultists work nicely for that, as do Solars who might be useful catspaws to deliver the goods, through intermediaries of course.


And there's still its Master's agenda, and that may mean lots of little missions for it--not just some little satrap in the Threshold, getting worshippers and fat sacrifices, but the hard work of finding a way to further the Yozi's aims. Which could just be corrupting and defiling as much of the Creation as possible, or ruining their rivals' plans.


A "free agent" might be working to spoil Abyssals fun. Deathlord fun. Lunar fun. Solar fun. Getting to and spoiling a line of Dragon Bloods, to get them in the service of the Yozi, those are all great hooks for a "free" demon--especially if it can get Sorcerers to call up friends and acquaintences to do some sidework for them.


They hide, pose as God Bloods or powerful Spirits or Small Gods, and then they work their insidious magic.  Maybe pop out a few Demon Blooded offspring to keep their influence in the Creation, maybe pop out a LOT of Demon Blooded in a cult even.  A tribe of "Beastmen" who aren't Lunar born is a great start for a cult that the Demon can use for its Master's will. And it delivers a nicely corrupted colony to boot.


Of course, there are all those do gooders who will hear about a Demon Cult up in the woods, or at least a messed up family of in-breds up in the hills who do unspeakable things to strangers--so you have to keep a low profile. I like the idea of bringing Demons right into the heart of cities, as tiny cults, getting the street people, the poor, the disenfranchised, and building them into a force to be reckoned will.  Spawning up Demon Bloods, getting folks all Akuma-tized, and being smart about it, and not being overt until there's a chance at working into the halls of power.


You get a smart Demon in the heart of the Realm, working on the families of servants, working their way into the homes of the Dragon Bloods, and quietly corrupting them, giving them hints at how to do this and that, leaving clues to call up more power--omitting at times the lines in the spell that actually give them dominion over the Demons that they call, who in turn act their role, but are still free to work their own agenda on the side.


Yassah, massah Dragon of the Earth, I'sah gowin' tah fetch dat fo' yahs righ' nawh! And the item that they retrieve is altered, just a hair, to be able to call up something more powerful, that is also not really under the control of the Sorcerer. In the meantime, the Sorcerer is corrupted by their words, the food that they eat, prepared by the Demon's pawns and children, and their wives and children are seduced, giving the cult more members. Eventually, a member of House falls, and from there, the corruption can spread, slow. The Yozi and theri servants are patient. They can wait generations before showing their face, and if a Demon is smart, they can hide for a long time, whispering in ears, and doing their Masters work...

 

[psychoph]

I know they are mentioned specificly in context with a sorcerer, but I saw them more as baser needs for the demon as in i need to do this otherwise i limit break and you can't control me.  So i woudl extrapolate that they want to satiate that desire as well for themselves, although maybe as free demons they woudl rather limit break.


I could definitely see the limit breaks as more of the problem for a demon not wanting to get caught, and that a inteligent demon would have to somehow control a lot of the baser desires.   That being said though I guess I woudl see demons that have natural desires that are only somewhat deviant from a normal person in Creations desires being less likely to be found.


I.E. the ones that like to satiate sexual pleasures being more likely to not be found compared to those that like to bite the heads off of small infants.

 

[riven5]

I'd imagine First Circle demons are quite common in Creation.  In fact, perhaps even more common than the Terrestrial Exalted.  Keep in mind how often they are summoned by the Exalted in general.  In fact, consider how many non-Exalted summon them on a daily basis.  God-Bloods can summon First Circle demons and I can't help but think any particularly enterprising God-Bloods would be quite willing to do so.  Indeed, there are many, many demons in Creation at any given time.  As there is a roll required to gain control of them, there is the very considerable possibility that many, many of them break free and go about their own business, whether as exiles, spies or simply as freedom lovin' demons.


As far as 2nd and 3rd circle demons go though, I'd have to assume there wouldn't be many of them wandering about.  Only the Celestial Exalted (And someone using, say, the Emerald Thurible) may summon 2nd and 3rd circles...and most of the people able to summon them are able to defeat them in the necessary rolls...or provide the manpower to bring them down physically.

 

[Haku1]

Riven5...


Ohhh... summoning up demons is easy. It's -controlling- them that's not so easy if you're not an exalt.


And remember, you CAN summon up 2nd circle demons with mortal summoning. No controls thou...

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Silly mortals, demons are for Exalts!

 

[Flagg]

So long as they have some source of continuing power (if their power functions like that of the gods, where they need a continual source a'la worship and taboos), and a plausible hideaway (forest, an island, a volcano, etc)

A Demesne or Manse could serve both functions, I suppose.


That brings me to another thought: Infernally aspected Manses?


Have these been covered before? What would be their traits?


-S

 

[Haku1]

A Demesne or Manse could serve both functions, I suppose.


That brings me to another thought: Infernally aspected Manses?


Have these been covered before? What would be their traits?


-S

I don't believe this has been covered before... but why go infernal... when a normal one works beautifully in creation? Althou, I can see a certain sense in making something that was creation aspected into something is more suitable to the Yozi enviroment... especially if it's true that demanses are where Gaia hid her secondary souls.

 

[Flagg]

I don't believe this has been covered before... but why go infernal... when a normal one works beautifully in creation?

Why have different aspects at all, if you're going to look at it like that?

especially if it's true that demanses are where Gaia hid her secondary souls.

Say what?


-S

 

[MikeOQuinn]

especially if it's true that demanses are where Gaia hid her secondary souls.

Say what?


-S

I lend my icon to this question...

 

[Haku1]

especially if it's true that demanses are where Gaia hid her secondary souls.

Say what?


-S

I lend my icon to this question...

It was hinted by Neph aka Mr Goodwin on rpg.net that somewhere, deep in the Autochtonian book, is the easter egg that Gaia's souls (3rd or 2nd tier) are the demanses of Creation.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

I believe I remember reading this when I read that book cover to cover ^^;;; It makes sense really, she is the earth on which our player run all the time. Why not have the demnses of Creation be her souls. Makes sense to me. Think about it, great regions of pure essence flowing out of the ground and changing that which is around them, its a hell of an anomoly. Besides Primordials and Gods can exist on different plains, so while Gaia is helping Luna play her Gameboy-er-Games of Divinity, her body is free for all to walk on and to make those shiny Manses out of

 

[Flagg]

It was hinted by Neph aka Mr Goodwin on rpg.net that somewhere, deep in the Autochtonian book, is the easter egg that Gaia's souls (3rd or 2nd tier) are the demanses of Creation.

Nothing against you personally, Haku, but that's retarded.


-S

 

[Haku1]

It was hinted by Neph aka Mr Goodwin on rpg.net that somewhere, deep in the Autochtonian book, is the easter egg that Gaia's souls (3rd or 2nd tier) are the demanses of Creation.

Nothing against you personally, Haku, but that's retarded.


-S

Hey... I'm only saying what he said... so, don't point that retarded stick at me.  


Retarded or not... it's something to have lying about... besides... what the heck would you do with infernal manses?

 

[Flagg]

Hey... I'm only saying what he said... so, don't point that retarded stick at me.  

I didn't. I said it wasn't directed at you personally.

what the heck would you do with infernal manses?

Something evil, duh.


-S

 

[Persell]

Of course, since Creation was originally created by the Yozis, the argument could be made that any Infernally-Aspected Manse is an uncorrupted one. A Demon that re-works a Wood-aspected Manse so that it starts sprouting a forest of demonic bronze trees is simply restoring such a place to its original purity and beauty - even if doing so makes it implacably hostile to Creation's current set of residents.


- Mempo

 

[Andrew02]

Of course' date=' since Creation was originally created by the Yozis, the argument could be made that any Infernally-Aspected Manse is an [b']uncorrupted[/b] one. A Demon that re-works a Wood-aspected Manse so that it starts sprouting a forest of demonic bronze trees is simply restoring such a place to its original purity and beauty - even if doing so makes it implacably hostile to Creation's current set of residents.
- Mempo

How? What evidence is there for something like that? What suggests that the original state of Creation was hostile to mortals (a product of the Primordials), and that at some point the very nature of Creation changed to however it was when the Exalted were ruling Creation and how it is in the Age of Sorrows?

 

[Jakk Bey]

Andrew--There was the blurb in the beginning of the Dragon Kings section of the PG that the Creation was a lot wilder and dangerous--the DK's being the Primordials' first experiment in "creating thinking beings that were fully a part of the physical world." Then, after things calmed down a bit, the gods created humanity, and they served the DK's, the DK's served the gods, the gods served the Primordials.


That's how the PG spells it anyhow. The Creation has been a work in progress for a while, and humanity came about after some of the Creation settled down a bit...

 

[Andrew02]

I'm seeing "newly made and far less stable - terrible earthquakes, fiery volcanoes and vast hurricanes were extremely common, and only the toughest creatures could survive," and "eventually, the world became a less violent and deadly place."


Nothing about that really seems tenable as evidence for demonry being the original, natural shape of the world.

 

[Jakk Bey]

I don't think that Mempo is making the claim that is was.


But, the Primordials have changed a bit since they put the Creation together--and I think that she's looking at if the Primoridals look to get a Manse more in line with their critters, that their own changed nature will then revert that Manse back to line up with the changed nature of the Primordials.


I'm not a real fan of this premise--because I always thought that Demense was more an upwelling of Gaia's power since she didn't roll with the rest of the Primordials and get slapped away--but I can see where the arguement comes from.


In turning a Manse or Demense to another Primordial's nature, you get it tuned to their new nature.


I'm not a fan of the idea--but I can see where she's coming from.

 

[Andrew02]

I can't see it, Jakk. Please help me.


It looks to me like Mempo is saying the Joey Infernal changing a manse to make it have demonic bronze trees is restoring that manse to a state of original purity and beauty.


I guess the part I'm getting hung up on is the premise that making a wood manse into, say, an infernal wood manse, with demonic bronze trees being the original way things were . . . and the way you're explaining it that the manse, in becoming an infernal wood manse with demonic bronze trees is linging up with the changed nature of the Primordials.


I don't know how to say it. It's like in making something the way it originally was . . . like, before Primordials became Yozis and Malfeans . . . means making it like Yozis and Malfeans . . . before those things existed, when there was just Primordials.

 

[Persell]

Andrew, please don't overanalyze, you're going to burst a blood vessel or something. Let me see if I can unpack this for you.


My original statement:

Of course, since Creation was originally created by the Yozis, the argument could be made that any Infernally-Aspected Manse is an uncorrupted one. A Demon that re-works a Wood-aspected Manse so that it starts sprouting a forest of demonic bronze trees is simply restoring such a place to its original purity and beauty - even if doing so makes it implacably hostile to Creation's current set of residents.

.. I mean this not as an indisputable fact, but as a certain point of view - that of the Yozis themselves.


The Yozis were at one time the uttermost Lords of Creation, and they still see themselves in that way. Take a moment to digest that statement. Yes, they were defeated, diminished, imprisoned. But they are still Primordials, and their arrogance is greater than the Gods themselves. It is my opinion that any Yozi capable of self-examination would firmly believe that whatever its sense of Self is now, it has always been that way.


The goal of the Yozis has always been to retake Creation, erase their mistakes, and remake it - not to their liking, but as it was in the Beginning.


But what if you can't remember that beginning? What if your self -your souls, the defining parts of you - have been rent asunder, corrupted, changed beyond recognition? Can you even recognize that you have changed? Or will you simply assume, like a Solar under the Great Curse, that whatever you are now, you have always been that way? And when you remake Creation in your image, lacking any other template, will you not make it as twisted and corrupt as you?


So, from a Yozi's point of view, Creation has become twisted and base. Remaking it in a demonic form is not evil, but a purifying undertaking, because either


a) the Yozi remember their original selves only dimly, if at all, and thus use their current howlingly insane, broken states as a template, or


b) They do remember everything the way it was, perfectly.  And it really was that monstrous in the beginning.


Take your pick.