Death to Literacy

[Ixacise]

I hate the term literate as used on roleplaying forums on a nigh pathological level. I hate how it's a lazy-ass and pretentious shorthand for having a decent grasp on spelling and grammar as well as being able to bang out more than a couple of lines. All literate means is that you can read and write or are knowledgeable in some area. Literate by itself has no further qualitative descriptor beyond being able to read and write.More annoying is that those who use the term literate in their qualifiers for games are the sort who conflate quality with quantity.


And this is probably one of the top things I hate in the context of forum roleplays. These are the types who churn out massive walls of overwrought and purple prose with wanton disregard to the poor little white space. This is the textual equivalent of excess frosting on a cupcake:


Decorative, full of empty calories, tasteless, and ultimately gets in the way of the actual tasty bits. In the roleplay side of things it means that it just puffs up the post while ultimately not doing a whole lot in regards to moving the story which is poor writing.


Speaking of white space which was mentioned not too long ago but mentioned because [insert some "clever" quip about the average person's reduced attention span]. White space is one of those little things that you might not consciously pay attention but happens to be everywhere and rather important. Hell this website and this text scrawl has white space all around you . Good white space helps to keep your attention and convey your message clearly in many ways. The obvious being that it simply gives your eyes some rest space. Also white space is one of those super crucial things in electronic media especially with how text works on things like forums.


.Which amusingly enough these idiots seem to have forgotten. No I will not read your multi-page slog with these you call paragraphs which are long as the Burj Khalifa as they are monotonously uniform which beats up on the poor white space. Not only could these paragraphs spare to be pruned but they could also take a note from the aforementioned tower and distribute the paragraphs in variably shaped paragraphs which brings back that white space to breath and breaks the visual monotony.


And woe to those who encounter the rare breed who have unwarranted self-importance and literary aspirations such as I who have had the terrible luck to encounter these types who turn textual games of imagination into un-fun exercises in annoyance. As not only will they insufferable with their constant bitching about the writing not being on par with their masterful prose. But they'll also demonstrate their non-mastery of the ancient Chinese secret of white space with their sausagey paragraphs that'll clog your eyes as as it does your arteries. Which is amusing cuz the average American has a middle school reading level so not like their prose is great either.


Ah yes, but what exactly is my point as I change courses as easily as a creek? That the conflation of quality with quantity is cancerous and plays a part to this "Literate" term being bandied about by those types unaware of other things that factory into good writing such as the almighty white space. Yeah good description is gonna be longer than two lines. But I don't and won't read 5 redundant paragraphs as how your angsty whatever dreamily looks up at the full moon and genuflects. Also Literate is godawful because it gives no good description as to what one is seeking so give an actual list of things you want.


TlR:


Please don't be the asshats who use literate and or do/think that writing walls of text makes you all that. Learn to white space and shit to make your writing more effective to the reader and his eyes. Literate is a terrible term that sucks because of how much of a pretentious air it has while being kinda vague and non-specific about some quality. Better off to actually list down more concrete stuff like tone expectation, minimum post lengths, etc.


------


Anyway since this is supposed to be a discussion and not a damned article pasting section. Let us partake in the discussion of finding a better shorthand in place of "literate". As well as more effective methods of doing your roleplaying writing outside of needless puff.


Also I'm gonna blame this more is good thing to the five paragraph essay with it's terrible formulaic design and the fact that students will puff them up to make the word count But hey at least once you enter College/University the first thing your English instructors are gonna do is get you to stop with the 5 paragraph essay.

 

[White Masquerade]

You're rude, but I agree with most of what you're saying. Too much frosting sometimes.


As for an alternative term, I'd say experienced fits in nicely.


You might get a lot of flak for this one though...( )

 

[Ixacise]

From you :^)?


Also it's only rude because being bitchy and sarcastic is fashion for internet writing. Also I've been meaning to type this thing up for a bit.


Also the problem with experience is much the same as the rant subjects. That it doesn't really mean anything. I'd rather much have a concrete list of stuff I desire in a roleplay. For example: Say I'm running a tongue in cheek fantasy pastiche that's high on action and fairly stylized of which I want mildly meaty posts and some grasp on grammer and spelling .


It then look something like thiss:

• Two paragraphs min
  
• Please keep your grammar nice enough
  
• Try and keep your character's tone kinda goofy except when it's not
  
• Feel free to make over the top fight scenes but don't go earth shatteringly ridiculous
  

And so on


However I do get the point of the shorthand but I just wish it was more descriptive or something

 

[Ixacise]

Perhaps.


Also I guess the tier levels kinda work but even then you can end up with something of a much "higher level" on something lower because wider audience or something. Also I got no clue on the standards for this site's tiers. On the other one I browse you got three and their based on minimum post length . Lowest with none, the middle with 1 paragraph and the highest with 2.


And even then you run into the trouble of using something like literate cuz you already got a minimum board standard to fit in for a section. So that term doesn't mean shit unlike asking something more specific and objective.

 

[Wolfheart]

Hmm interesting points.


I do think it depends on the writer. Many things could attribute to why they write walls of text. Sometimes its mood, other times its inspiration....truth is you can never really tell. It's also writing style, some people do not like using this white space you speak of, because it interrupts their writing mojo or gets them out of the "zone" so to speak, or they just don't like to.


Granted, do understand that these same people writing walls of text do also have days where they do not. Those that consistently do have far too much time on their hands and can and will to feel accomplished and busy in some way or another. It keeps their brains occupied and gears shifting. As far as those that write grandeur posts who put down others for not being up to par with them, those are people that believe writing to be a duty and a form of work rather than fun or a hobby, and they make me want to kick a kitty.


I agree to disagree to agree with your points. On one side, there are people that enjoy writing alot and you shouldn't entirely put them down if they simply just enjoy writing until they run out of inspiration or reason to finally finish their story or post. On another side, there are those same people who develop egomania and put down other writers for silly reasons, and in that case they need to chill out and watch a digital burning fireplace or something to calm their hysteria. Do know everyone is different when it comes to writing though, and the style depends on the type of person behind the screen and the logic whether or not they are having a good or bad day, how busy they are in their lives, is writer's block in their system? Are they trying to get over a hump or push through? You know...the usual author/writer/word maker stuff...

 

[Ixacise]

Thing is I don't care about the motivation nor did I even touch upon it outside of those who think loads of words=quality! Those type of posts are objectively bad on a more dare I say "mechanical" basis . The exception being the purple prose part which is bit more fuzzy on both it's nature being a mechanical and prose quality issue and whether or not your descriptions are nice and vivid or if they're just padded florid monstrosities.


However do not mistake me for saying I hate long posts as a whole and advocate for a style best described as Hemingway on roids. A long post is fine so long as it is done in way that is not only readable, but also is meaningful to the roleplay and moves it along. And those type of posts that I describe are not readable nor are they meaningful in moving the story. It's just empty padding and padding is bad; you are not a freelancer being paid per word count and will not starve if you don't reach that quota.


For me the only reason I'd be reading these type of posts is because we're playing together and I need to figure out what exactly is your point. A task that will only take a cursory skim which will render all that time and effort moot. And I'll go out on a limb and say that there are other people who feel similarly.

 

[Grey]

It might not be possible to find a useful shorthand - I mean, you could possibly substitute literary for literate, but that sounds a bit like pretentious wank. Probably best just to list criteria as you suggested. If you can't be arsed to list 'em, maybe you shouldn't be bothering, you know? That's the proverbial you, by the way, not aimed at you specifically Ixacise.


To address Wolfheart's point for a moment - that's what editing is for. You write until you finish your post or run out of mojo, and then you edit. I'm guilty of neglecting that, but it's not hard.


Furthermore, defending bad writing as someone's unique style doesn't change the fact it's bad writing. I write for fun and work, and have studied literature extensively - there are principles in place to guide good writing and metrics by which to measure it. I don't expect everyone roleplaying to produce publishable-quality work, but I want people to try. Whenever someone deflects constructive criticism by telling me 'it's art and this is my style', I write them off. That's a lazy excuse to avoid having to work hard and get better. Conversely, if you tell me 'yes, it's flawed, but I did this on a whim/as a draft/to get the idea out/for a giggle/because I needed to vent', my response will be far more charitable.


But yes, the conflation of quality and quantity on the site irks me. It's why I've taken to using an economy of language rule - if my players can't express something in three paragraphs or less, they need to think carefully about the content they want to include and how they want to express it. Although if you run over and I'm still enjoying the post by the end that doesn't apply, obviously, but I've had players whose posts I just skim because there's so much dull padding or repetition.

 

[Elle Joyner]

xD This post... Where has it been all my life ? I had this rant in the chat, only a few days ago. Literate - that word that doesn't mean what you think it means. It's insulting, frankly, to assume that anyone on a website designed for reading/writing is illiterate, simply because they don't qualify for your standards of writing.


If you want the people who join your RPs to write a certain way - then you need to specify what that way is. There is no way around it... no short hand - because there is no way to determine what one person's "level" or "standard" is, compared to another. I know people who've created "advanced" RPs, but the vast majority of their posts are one liners... That, to me, is cringe worthy. But that is my opinion. And only my opinion. It is not a defining factor for or against advanced literaCY.


It just goes to show ya... words, man... You gotta know what they mean before you write them.

 

[SkyGinge]

Sorry I'm late to the party, but yeah, interesting post! I can say I agree with the OP in both these regards, although I must also confess to being guilty of both of them at certain points. Though I understand the whole literate debate, I have put 'this is a literate RP before' simply because I knew there were two different types of RP in world from speaking to a RL friend of mine. She does (or did) this RP style thing on tumblr I think, but it was just in script form. Thus I used the word literatre to distinguish from that form and tell people not to do script things. However, that was when I was on a forum of much younger users who probably were likely to do that, so it's kind of purposeless for me to do so now. But yeah, Elle and Grey are completely right imo.


The 'quantity = quality' mentality is the main thing that frustrates me personally. In fact, in a lot of novels, authors can convey an awful lot of meaningful, powerful and concise description in only a couple of lines. I don't know how many of you are familiar with David Mitchell (the novelist, not the comedian ), but he immediately comes to mind when I think of that. His entire prose has a wonderfully energetic feel to it as description is kept so careful and concise, yet his imagery is always superb and witty without the need for reams and reams of paragraphs. I've encountered multiple users recently who fall into this trap, and it's sadly frustrating. It also has the adverse affect of making everything slower paced too. Hence why I don't like to force word counts onto people. As long as everybody is making an effort, I'm a happy ginge

 

[Elle Joyner]

I typically require a three paragraph minimum, one page maximum. This, I figure, is enough to discourage both underwhelming one liners which can result in lack of reaction/crucial detail as well as discouraging ramblings and prose for prose-sake.


But this is no concrete rule, either... short posts happen, as do lengthy posts... the trick is making every word, no matter how short or long, count. A lot of people on both ends of the spectrum neglect that crucial concept.

 

[SkyGinge]

Well said, Good-Fellow Joyner, well said again :') Having said I don't do word counts, that obviously doesn't mean I allow one-liners either. Rather I always ask for people to write with a sensible amount of detail for what they have to reply to. So for example, if there's something that should require description, like a battle scene, or travelling, or something, then I do expect around a few paragraphs. But if all you character has to do is reply to Billy McGee's 'How are you?', you shouldn't be writing a five paragraph essay about how that question evokes memories of your long dead goldfish and how it affected your characters hopes and dreams, followed by symbolic descriptions of the glass in Billy's hand, just for the hell of it. No! Naughty writer! Like Elle says, make words count! Treat them like the posh-chocolates you recieved for Christmas, as opposed to the cheapo ones your family alway gets to share. Lavish them, be precise with them. But don't waste too many of them.

 

[Elle Joyner]

*LOL* Ginge... You and I - we need to talk about this Roleplaying thing. I need more people like you in my writing life!

 

[Ixacise]

I got to say I'm surprised by the amount of responses this got.

 

[Sevenfold]

Unfortunately I'm also a little guilty of using the term 'literate' to describe more descriptive roleplays. This tendency only came about, for me anyway, when I moved on from social networks where I used to roleplay (terribly) with the same group of people at the age of twelve or thirteen. I've improved since then, trust me. At least, I hope. xD After that I moved onto searching for roleplay forums in the hopes of finding something more creative and interesting, but also to improve my roleplaying skills. I noticed that forums featuring 'advanced' roleplay were always described as 'literate', and just assumed the word was used as a term to describe more descriptive, paragraph-style roleplaying, rather than meaning the forum was for people who can read and write. That's just how I viewed it anyway, whether or not others were the same.


However this was an interesting topic to bring up and I agree with the whole attitude of quality = quantity being irritating. It seems to be appearing more and more, and I find myself always having to ask my partner if we're going to move on from a scene any time soon or if their character is going to continue to silently wallow in self-pity.. Then again, I also notice the tendency some roleplayers seem to have with having their main character just leave the scene and my character, without creating an opportunity for the roleplay to go anywhere from there. Then I end up having to plot again with them after already planning beforehand. I think I phrased this terribly, but I can't be the only one experiencing it, right? xD

 

[Miz]

The actual discussion of the word "Literal" came up in the planning for the new prefixes (Simple --> Detailed). We wanted to know what words would best capture what each style of play emphasized. I can say I am not much of a fan of the term "Literate" to describe roleplays. Really I feel that it only furthers elitism between roleplayers who are already somewhat judgmental towards one another. Likewise its pretty much an insult to people who don't meet up to just your specific standards of how to roleplay.


Literacy is the ability to read. In most developed countries, literacy rates are roughly about 99%. Frankly, if we are being technical almost anyone using this site is "literate". Calling them otherwise is just basically insulting them.


I can understand what people are getting at by labeling roleplays. However I think there are other labels that do not produce the same kind of tone. After all, roleplaying is a hobby to most (sometimes its more than that for some) and we shouldn't be too judgmental if people are having fun and not disrupting other people's fun.


That's my two cents...

 

[AkuTheWolfOkami]

Late, but I'll add on anyway.


Everything most of you said, (^-^)-b.


I've been roleplaying for a while (15 years or so), and I've seen different forums, chats, the like. I've never really liked the word Literate, for aforementioned reasons, mainly the fact that it further pushes the thought of elitism. I've used it before, because it had been the standard on a website, though I had started to put disclaimers about my disdain for it.


Only beating a dead horse. So (^-^)-b most of you.


P.S.


I stand tall for the appropriate place for One-liners in all roleplays, though most people who've roleplayed with me will tell you...they've never seen me do one. :3

 

[Slenderman]

Just gonna add a bit to the discussion as someone who has used the word in the past.


"Illiterate"


In the beginning when I first saw the word appear I did not consider it a bad thing. The word seemed harmless enough until it began to branch out. What was once a post length preference had become a word of hate and disregard for anyone else. I was putting others down because their post-lengths and vocabulary didn't match mine.


Eventually, I started to see the word "illiteracy" and "literate" as something roleplayers put other roleplayers down with. I saw how ignorant those words were in regards to roleplaying and I felt like a bad person. Who was I to put someone below me over their roleplay style? For all I knew they were smarter than I was in the English language.


To put my opinion simply, there are better ways to express a distaste for short posts and others need to see that. Roleplaying style does not determine level of intelligence.

 

[Badass_Username]

I thought it would be fun to jump to some old threads and revive one that I like, to see what people think.

I don't like the tone of the OP's post (which I didn't finish reading if I'm being honest) but I agree that usually walls of text and purple prose are considered "literate" by the rp community.

What does literate mean for you?

 

[nerdy tangents]

Badass_Username so I think people mostly use multi-para or specify exact paragraph numbers now. I actually don't think I see literate come up that often anymore.

Lol I had to actually think about it and I realized people have kinda gotten away from the term naturally to something more descriptive.

 

[Luscinioide]

i...this thread is eight years old. i don't think this is even necroing anymore. it's ancient blood rituals to revive a desecrated husk that at this point is just a pile of dust.

seeing that the vitriol for people who write long posts still existed back then is entertaining though, lol. nothing gets folks frothing at the mouth quite like those "darn rat bastards who write big posts." the op from way back when really had a thing against it, yikes. nobody tell them about the hidden circle of writers here who do 2-3k+ word posts, they'll have an aneurysm

but anyways the only people who use 'literate' these days are kids and newcomers. the whole debate is pretty silly to me, as i doubt anyone sets out with the motivation to use it to call other writers dumb. it's not uncommon for a word to gain a meaning that isn't exactly what it is in the dictionary. see: literally. when i say "i am literally dying right now", i am not, in fact, literally dying. but obviously we all know that and acknowledge i'm just using its trendy meaning.

 

[Badass_Username]

but anyways the only people who use 'literate' these days are kids and newcomers.

Oh? I'm surprised that's the case, I thought "please be at least semi-literate" or "lazy-lit" appears in the group interest checks quite often.

 

[Luscinioide]

Oh? I'm surprised that's the case, I thought "please be at least semi-literate" or "lazy-lit" appears in the group interest checks quite often.

...most public groups are newcomers. only newcomers would have the naivety and optimism to try and arrange a group rp with people they don't know and have never written with before by year 2-3+, we all become jaded enough to know not to touch that shit with a ten foot pole

 

[Inno]

It just means to me exactly what it means, someone can read and write. When people start throwing around semi-lit, lazy-lit, lit this and that I avoid them. What exactly are you saying? You don't know how to read or write? If that's the case why are you roleplaying? If you don't like to write a lot of paragraphs or use different adjectives, don't feel the need to describe how your character is feeling or thinking, etc just call it for what it is. You don't want to do something that requires some effort and that's fine, do what makes you feel comfortable. But the whole literate thing in roleplay is beyond me. No one ever talked about that to describe their skills as a roleplayer until I came here.

 

[Edric Blight]

God I love this guy’s energy. I miss 2014, lmao.

Amen brother, preach! Even into 2022 we have pretentious assholes like that here on this site! A timeless post!

I personally loved this rant and how you worded it, doesn’t matter that it’s getting hate or being labeled “rude,” I love it. Valid grievances expressed here imo.

It’s stuff said on the internet calling out people being pretentious assholes, of course it’s gonna be hostile. I don’t see it as rude. If you do that’s your own prerogative but I’d say don’t get so offended by words of a guy behind the screen on the internet who disappeared years ago lol. He’s not harassing or threatening to doxx anyone, so therefore, harmless internet words. A very harshly worded and vocally expressed minority opinion on the internet? Yes. Words can’t hurt you over the internet (physically at least).

W post OP, I know I write all this like you’ll see it one day, but you won’t sadly lol. You disappeared years ago it seems.

Death to 1 liners tho.

(Not advocating for the dumbing down of roleplays and normalizing lazily written shitty two liners tho, just agreeing with OP’s point on stop using language to inflate your ego and make put yourself above others like you’re some pretentious ass college professor.)

 

[nerdy tangents]

Edric Blight strong disagree. To me, it’s important to call people out when they're being assholes. If you go around saying “well everyone who I have offended is wrong” then you never grow as a person.

OP clearly had some kinda issue with the word literate but tbh I found their little screed more pretentious than anyone they might be calling out.

Cuz like yeah I get it you don’t want to write a lot. Okay then don’t. You don’t have to be an elitist snob about people who do write a lot. Especially if your gonna act like you raging against the elitist masses by … being an elitist? Like sure Jan go off.


** not saying you specifically just that the OP gave strong do as I say not as I do vibes. Which is absolutely something that should be called out. You don’t get to act snobby then turn around and get butt hurt cuz you think other people are being snobby. **