Dealing with Lose of character dots?

[psychoph]

I have been contemplating a story idea to deal with one of my character's flaw enemy.  The character runs a bar in nexus and I want her enemy to be an Abyssal who is running a syndacit out of Nexus.  After coming back from an adventure the PC finds his bar trashed, and his 20 year old wife threatened into paying protection money to the syndacit.  What i have thought about doing is having this reduce the character resources form 5 to 4, to represent the clean up of the trashed bar, lost money, as well as payment for protection.


After talking to the player of the character about how she felt about losing a dot in any of he background i came to a conundrum.  She feels that it isn't ok to remove dots form a player character without somehow giving them something else in return.  I personally feel that the dots on the sheet shoudl be raised and lowered based on story not on the point value they represent.


My question then comes to this.  How do other storytellers deal with removing dots from a player character, either through charms, which someone please tell me if there are or aren't charms the permanently remove attributes and ability dots, Fair Folk charms that remove virtues and willpower permanently, or backgrounds that are removed due to story reaosns liek a contact or ally getting killed, an artifact getting destoryed or a manse being over run by and enemy?


it in my opinion that exalted as a system is much more fluid witht he character sheet than the WOD where attributes, abilities as well as background can go down as well as up.  I could have sworn there were charms out there that permanently remove dots form people's character sheets.

 

[Flagg]

I think it's the ST's perogative to give or take away whatever he wants. Especially Backgrounds. They represent what the character STARTS with. Anything can be lost or gained in the course of play. The alternative is ridiculous.


That said, the character must have one fucking popular bar, to gain Resources 5 from it. No wonder the crime syndicate wants a peice of the action.


-S

 

[psychoph]

Well the bar isn't the sole income for the resources 5, the character was the leader of a mercenary company for abotu 15 years.

 

[Flagg]

Well the bar isn't the sole income for the resources 5, the character was the leader of a mercenary company for abotu 15 years.

In that case, I think it is a bit harsh to drop an entire dot of Resources just because the bar got trashed.


The difference in fortunes between Resources 4 and 5 is quite a bit, even for the income from a bar. If the bar's just been trashed a bit, then it shouldn't take long to clean up and re-open. It shouldn't put that much of a dent in their wallets.


After all, the crime syndicate wouldn't do anything to put too huge of a stop to the bar's business. Not if they plan to extort money from the owners. If you're juicing someone, you can't stop them from earning, or else they'll have no money to pay you.


-S

 

[psychoph]

this is ture and I have considered that, the addition to the bar is that the player owes a guilds person for 100 slaves, and agree to a fairly steep price for it.  There are 3 events that would be the cause for reduction in resources.


1. 100 slaves that were quoted at a very high price per slave approximately 1 month income from resources 5.


2. Trashing of the bar in such a manner that the income for while the PC was gone is lost, PC has been gone for about 3 weeks to 1 month.


3. Extotion was paid after the bar was trashed by the wife, since the Enemy knows a bit about the PC's fiances and the wife i am taking to not know much I am thinking that about 1 months salary was paid for the inconvince of having to trash the bar and so that the help doesn't start dieing.


4. Depending on the PC's decision she may be funding a 100 person army soon.


I think you are still correct though the first 3 items only woudl take abotu 1/5th of the PC's income for the year and not really a reason to reduce the resource dot, the army plus the other three might get to the reduction.


The general question though is more about the reduction of player bought dots on the character sheet and how to get players ok with negatives to their character sheet as well as positives.

 

[Jakk Bey]

With the bar, it's a temporary loss of income.  A bar isn't going to generate 4 dots worth of income, so the character should have other concerns running that will cover the expenses. The drop in income should only be for a short time, I would think.


As for players gaining or losing points in Backgrounds--it depends on the situation. Player does something bone headed, and manages to lose their shiny 3 point Artifact down a mine shaft...tough noogies. You use it a plot hook to get them to either go get it, or they can look for another shiny.  If during play, they alienate a servant by poor treatment...goodbye Follower.


If a Follower is killed by an enemy...likewise, tough noogies. Protect your people better.


Thing is, Backgrounds are there to represent what the character started off with, and these things can change. Hopefully, the changes represented are all in accordance to the plot. An Ally is killed, then you've got a plot hook to avenge them. The thing is to make the plot have consequences, both good and bad, but not to be arbitrary about them. They happen for reasons. A character works their butts off to build an organization, give them the extra cookie in Resources. They manage their empire poorly, then don't be afraid to drop it down to show that what they do means something.


Charms don't remove Backgrounds. Play does. A Charm or Spell could wipe out all a character's Followers in one go. It could also enflame an entire populace, and two more raise their hands to avenge their fallen brethren, and the Background could actually be increased in a month.  A very powerful Sidereal effect could erase a character's fame, altering the skien of Fate, and people could just forget about a character's Influence, but that is still something that is to be roleplayed.


Don't get hung up on Charms, but rather the effects on people. Stories are about people, and what happens to them. Mechanics are just a way to adjudicate matters in a way that seems fair. The key, as an ST, is to be fair.


A character who loses something important, should be allowed to at least repair the damage, if not right away, it should open the door to other possibilities. Yes, their bestest Ally is gone, assassinated--but what about that Ally's son, who wants to avenge his Poppa, and what about the strange book that he left his boy?


The key is to be fair. Character does something stupid, don't be afraid to show consequences, but it's not a punative measure. It's an outgrowth of play.


Let the game progress. Character's bar got trashed, she owes money, then how is she going to get that money?  Look at Rounders--great film--character loses his entire stake, and then has to build it back. Lots of neat stuff happened, and drama ensued. Don't be afraid to dangle new hooks before your players, to give them a chance to get back on top--it's not a guarantee, but it's how grow your plot.

 

[MikeOQuinn]

I personally am fond of Jade City's (will add link when I get home) concept of permanent Resources and temporary resources. So much so, that I have my own take on it.


When you spend Resources for a one-time cost, that cost comes out of your temporary pool, which regenerates at 1/2 your permanent Resources per interval (based on how often you get paid, etc. Normally a month). This way, it's possible for someone who makes a ton of money to be strapped for immediate cash, but to know that he'll have it back in the future.


Don't know if something like this would be accurate for what you're doing, but it may work out something like:


Bar trashed: Temp resources 3 to repair, 1 permanent Resources dot lost per month until repaired


Extortion: Temp resources 2-3


Slaves: Temp resources to buy, provided that he has the permanent Resources to maintain them (otherwise, they start dying off)


100-man army: If it's within his permanent Resources, he can maintain them, if not, he most likely can't

 

[StarHawk]

I agree with Mike. Resources is a disposable thing. It is possible to dwindle all of one's money away into nothing. I have seen 2 other PC take from resources 5 to 4 in one sitting. (Of course it was super-high stakes poker... but who's counting?)


Tell your player that in return for losing that fifth dot in resources (which is crazy rich anyway) his wife gets to keep her fingers, and he gets a working bar. If the syndicate knows he's loaded (which they most-likely do) they could definately aim for his pride.


Also keep in mind the level of the flaw. Did he take this flaw at the 3-5 level  to get away with the points hoping he'd never have to deal with it? If it's a nasty flaw, it does nasty things to one's character sheet. A 1pt enemy is someone on your level. A 3-5 is someone quite influencial or powerful. If this enemy is quite powerful the character should be hopeful the protection money is enough and the syndicate doesn't just up and decide to kill his wife to show you they're serious. There goes another background! (I'm guessing.)


In short, Ultimately it is your game. If this background loss is called for to fule your story, I would go with it, with or without the player being fully happy with it.

 

[psychoph]

Mike temporary resources might actually be a solution to my problem.


I definitely understand teh concept of fair and making resource loss as part of the plot.  The resource loss, which I have decided against because the circumstances really don't seem to fit, was intended to bring the enemy into the plot.  I would have to say that the character left her business unguarded in Nexus with a 20 year old wife that the player never more than breifly described as his wife, and no protection, however the player is new to the game so I don't see it as likely that they would think about this stuff.  


By charms that affect the character sheet I was meaning more attributes, abilities, virtues and willpower not necessarily backgrounds, although background I can definitely see getting whiped out by charms considering there are charms that will decimate artifcats and sorcery that will level whole armies.


I am actually debating about killing the players wife, oddly enough I see that as more severe than lowering a dot of resources, at the moment I think  that trashing the bar and breaking the arm of one of the works will suffice to introduce the enemy and the enemies organizaiton.  


the player has an enemy of 2.

 

[henryjulian]

at the moment I think  that trashing the bar and breaking the arm of one of the works will suffice to introduce the enemy and the enemies organizaiton.

Seems to friendly to be the work of an Abyssal to me....


As far as losing backgrounds.....that 2 points from enemy could have been the same two points that bumped his resources up from 4 to 5 in the first place.  Seems fair to me that the same enemy can take those points away.