Kyeudo
One Thousand Club
Its purchases at your Resources level that drops it, and only temporarily.
Dealing With Finances
- Thread starter Ker'ion
- Start date
wordman
Two Thousand Club
Again, my first reaction is sort of "so what?". Who cares if all these magistrates get manor houses. But... I guess you do, so here's my second reaction:Gylthinel said:
This is a variation of the "infinite iron" problem.
In d20 games, the spell Wall of Iron permanently conjures a huge wall of iron. Casting the spell costs some value X in material components, but selling the conjured iron at the prices listed for iron elsewhere in the rules generates many times X in returns. Repeat for infinite money. Cue the screams of "exploit" and "cheat" and much gnashing of teeth.
The problem with this reaction, of course, is that it assumes that the price of iron stays constant, and that isn't how money works. Someone attempting to do this would probably make a little money once, but would totally crash the price of iron to almost nothing very rapidly. (While this suggests some interesting things you could do in a campaign where supply is infinite, that is a different game.)
In a case where "all these magistrates get manor houses", what would rapidly happen is that all these "2nd level" magistrates would figure out "Hey, if I want a manor house, then I need to present an obstacle to those guys and have them buy me off." He'll have a lot of competition, though, because every magistrate (3rd level, 20th level, everyone) will realize this, too. All of them will suddenly get really obstinate and obstructive, because, hey, free manor houses all around. The next thing that will happen is that, with everyone having a manor house, the status gained with having a manor house no longer exists. But, no problem, just create a worse obstacle for your characters to get bribed with an "ultra manor house" or, hell, a manse.
But even this would never actually happen. Why? Because infinite wealth does not mean infinite supply. I don't care if you have the wealth to buy 100 manor houses, you can't actually do so if there are only 20 to be bought. And guess what? After you buy three or four of them, people will catch on and start jacking up the prices on the remainder.
If your players aren't mature enough to handle and abstract resource system with some dignity (and, I think we've established that they aren't), then I wouldn't have any qualms about going nuts with the reaction the economy takes to their spending decisions.
On the other hand, I wouldn't run a game for players like that anyway, so what do I know.
wordman
Two Thousand Club
And, a third reaction:
*Sniff*... they grow up so fast... *wipes tear*
Congratulations. Your players are role-playing the Great Curse without even needing mechanical incentive to do so. And they're not even solars yet.Gylthinel said:
*Sniff*... they grow up so fast... *wipes tear*
Thanqol
Elder Member
I endorse wordman's products and/or services.
It's like the presentations at my university - everyone brings bribes for the audience, and it's reaching arms race pitch. I'm waiting for someone to leave a car key on my seat.
It's like the presentations at my university - everyone brings bribes for the audience, and it's reaching arms race pitch. I'm waiting for someone to leave a car key on my seat.
This sort of goes back to the root of this thread. Why give players something, such as vast wealth, and then punish them for using it? I'm certainly not debating the cause/effect issues of such activities on the economy, but it seems extremely.... overbearing for a GM to essentially not allow players to use their abilities. What's next? Preventing them from using their excellencies? Cutting down on how often they can use their attributes? Etc. I definately think that abuse should be avoided in all aspects of this game's poorly written mechanics, but "abuse" should extend to more than just my somewhat myopic position on it. Meaning: my players aren't bad for using the advantages they have at hand.wordman said:
wordman
Two Thousand Club
This doesn't really seem to me to be what Ker'ion is complaining about, really. What seems to be happening, to me, is that instead of actually using their character's abilities to solve something, the players are using their own abilities to exploit rule oddities in ways that break the setting. Most players are mature enough not to do that. They realize, 'yeah, we could push the rules there, but that spoils to fun', and not fucking do it.Gylthinel said:
For instance, that wall of iron example? Only dickheads who weren't really interested in a game would do that in a real D&D game, unless the whole campaign was based around the notion of an infinite resource. Ker'ion's players are, evidently, exactly the type to pull the wall of iron trick, then get really pissed about the game not being "cool".
In other words, they are the types that assume that they have no responsibility at all for the story, or each other's fun, but rather that role-playing games are there to be "won".
Personally, I would rather not play at all than GM for players like that. If I was absolutely forced to, though, I would just totally stop bothering to prepare any story, and run absolutely everything as a logical reaction to what the players are doing. Let them turn the place into a wasteland or whatever.
They must have some opinion of what, exactly, they are "winning". Xp? Respect? Toys? I dunno. One approach might be to either just make it ridiculously simple to get whatever it is, or just not give it to them at all. In other words, take away whatever they consider fun about getting whatever it is. Why not? That's what they are doing to you.
Ker'ion
Primordial of Abstract Logic
Yes, Wordman, the players are using their skills, not their characters' skills when it comes to monetary gains.
They tend to scrimp and save, all the while hunting out anything that could turn a profit.
Put them in the West and they'll make the East India Trading Company, put them in the South and you'll get a strip mining company, the East and you get a mini-Guild, the North and they'll start mining never-melt ice and selling it.
Yet dinners, campaigning, necessities, clothes, etcetera seem to never be needed at all.
*ADDENDUM: WASABI SPICED SHRIMP FLAVORED CHIPS FTW!!!*
They tend to scrimp and save, all the while hunting out anything that could turn a profit.
Put them in the West and they'll make the East India Trading Company, put them in the South and you'll get a strip mining company, the East and you get a mini-Guild, the North and they'll start mining never-melt ice and selling it.
Yet dinners, campaigning, necessities, clothes, etcetera seem to never be needed at all.
*ADDENDUM: WASABI SPICED SHRIMP FLAVORED CHIPS FTW!!!*
Thorn Darkblade
I know lots of things. Lots of things...
For any backgrounds, including dots of resources, I make my players spend EXP on if they want it long term. Sure, they killed the Wyld Hunt party after them, got a bunch of nice jade trinkets, not to mention an assload of mundane weapons from the mortal troops. Unless they drop EXP, or tell me they intend to (Experience Debt can be a useful tool in this case), the next time they get caught in a massive spell, their ship gets overturned in a storm, a thief rummages through their things in a night, etc., those items will be the first on my chopping block. I also don't consider wealth or items not payed for 'owned' for the concept of Charms that banish them to Elsewhere.
In fact, I'm pretty sure this was one of the methods of balancing Background increases after character creation in the Errata.
But, also, wordman is right, as usual. What difference does it make if they're walking around with 200 billion dots in resources? They can't get anything of real power with it (if I remember right, an artifact 2 is usually a resources 4-5 purchase), and, it makes them a HUGE target to anyone who does have use for such cash. Bring down the Guild on their asses.
In fact, I'm pretty sure this was one of the methods of balancing Background increases after character creation in the Errata.
But, also, wordman is right, as usual. What difference does it make if they're walking around with 200 billion dots in resources? They can't get anything of real power with it (if I remember right, an artifact 2 is usually a resources 4-5 purchase), and, it makes them a HUGE target to anyone who does have use for such cash. Bring down the Guild on their asses.
Jagane
New Member
Heh, first post here, hi all! *waves*
Well if you're dealing with players that have way too much money, you can always take the approach that was suggested in Dreams of the First Age, in the Guide to Meru, it suggested that for the exalted, you had so much money that you wouldn't know what to do with it but money didn't matter. Oh, it was something to pay or reward underlings with, but real currency between exalts, or exalts and spirits/yozis/etc. was in favors. It was your abilities and what could be done with them that were the real wealth. And some arrangements in trading or asking for favors can be very dear indeed, like the Night-caste, Ebon Shadow's Graceful Daughter, mentioned in Scroll of Monk and her deal with Five Day's Darkness for learning the Ebon Shadow style, she (or he depending on who the exaltation finds) owes him one service in every incarnation without question.
Well if you're dealing with players that have way too much money, you can always take the approach that was suggested in Dreams of the First Age, in the Guide to Meru, it suggested that for the exalted, you had so much money that you wouldn't know what to do with it but money didn't matter. Oh, it was something to pay or reward underlings with, but real currency between exalts, or exalts and spirits/yozis/etc. was in favors. It was your abilities and what could be done with them that were the real wealth. And some arrangements in trading or asking for favors can be very dear indeed, like the Night-caste, Ebon Shadow's Graceful Daughter, mentioned in Scroll of Monk and her deal with Five Day's Darkness for learning the Ebon Shadow style, she (or he depending on who the exaltation finds) owes him one service in every incarnation without question.
Thorn Darkblade
I know lots of things. Lots of things...
Welcome aboard Jag! We won't bite. Well, I won't. Watch yourself around Ker'ion.
Anyways, yeah, that's the idea that's been posted repeatedly here. Enough money, and money is worthless. Think of a kid locked in a candy store overnight. He's gonna be on a super-sugar high for the first hour or so...but, then, he'll just get sick of it. He'll want real food, but, all that candy won't do that. He needs the key to get out, but, candy makes for a poor key.
Essentially, that's the mentality you need to enforce on your players should they become infinitely rich. They'll still have to do shit to get things of actual value. It's not D&D, you can't just go out and buy super-rare artifact components, you need to get them yourself. Tons of jade won't buy you Lunar or Sidereal allies, they run on different economies. Even dragonbloods will get sick of infinite wealth. Essentially, anything of Resource worth becomes worthless.
Anyways, yeah, that's the idea that's been posted repeatedly here. Enough money, and money is worthless. Think of a kid locked in a candy store overnight. He's gonna be on a super-sugar high for the first hour or so...but, then, he'll just get sick of it. He'll want real food, but, all that candy won't do that. He needs the key to get out, but, candy makes for a poor key.
Essentially, that's the mentality you need to enforce on your players should they become infinitely rich. They'll still have to do shit to get things of actual value. It's not D&D, you can't just go out and buy super-rare artifact components, you need to get them yourself. Tons of jade won't buy you Lunar or Sidereal allies, they run on different economies. Even dragonbloods will get sick of infinite wealth. Essentially, anything of Resource worth becomes worthless.
Cthulhu_Wakes
Black Sun in a White World
It's quite true. Even monetary empires become trifling unless you're playing ball against the Guild. Then it becomes monstrous social combats/corporate takeovers/outright warfare.
cyl
Creepy smile
And the social combat system breaks down completely :lol:
Hello new guy
Hello new guy
Ker'ion
Primordial of Abstract Logic
Thorn Darkblade
I know lots of things. Lots of things...
Tell that to my rabies shots.
Jagane
New Member
New gal actually. ^^ And thanks for the welcome you all!cyl said:Hello new guy
So players will obviously generate and lose money in bulk over the years of gameplay, but what's to stop them from destabilizing an economy when they decide to go purely the favors through abilities method and if they decide with high compassion to give a load of wealth to every beggar they come across?
Cthulhu_Wakes
Black Sun in a White World
Then they're painting a huge target on their asses.
Seriously. If they're not obvious exalts stunting when they just talk to yon post boy or stunting crossing the road with essence flare, someone, somewhere is going to rob their ass or get them the hell out of town. With words or swords.
And it attracts attention. The Guild, the Realm, local powers are all going to wonder what the hell just made that economy implode overnight. Everything has consequences.
Seriously. If they're not obvious exalts stunting when they just talk to yon post boy or stunting crossing the road with essence flare, someone, somewhere is going to rob their ass or get them the hell out of town. With words or swords.
And it attracts attention. The Guild, the Realm, local powers are all going to wonder what the hell just made that economy implode overnight. Everything has consequences.
Ker'ion
Primordial of Abstract Logic
*fiddling with the dials, turning up the echo*
EvErYtHiNg!!!
Sorry, couldn't pass it up.
I'm reading L.E. Modesitt jr. and buying a meal at this bar instead of that inn in his books can have a reverb across the continent, allowing the enemy to track your movements. The same thing can happen if you walk past the wrong person or leave a coin from this land in that land.
cyl
Creepy smile
Well depending on where the exalts are, they might be considered either as saints by the locals, or threats... but for those in power, they'll always be challengers.
If one character has ressources 4, he can take care of most basic needs of the group... and if he wants to be fashion boy/girl... then he can use social charms to lower the prices of what he wants.
Seriously, finances in the world of exalted are very very secondary... unless you are playing in a very gritty game and your ST has a history with OWoD games (in which case, he'll screw you on every background you have / don't have).
If one character has ressources 4, he can take care of most basic needs of the group... and if he wants to be fashion boy/girl... then he can use social charms to lower the prices of what he wants.
Seriously, finances in the world of exalted are very very secondary... unless you are playing in a very gritty game and your ST has a history with OWoD games (in which case, he'll screw you on every background you have / don't have).
Joni-san
Member
It's not D&D' date=' you can't just go out and buy super-rare artifact components, you need to get them yourself.[/quote']
Ledaal Kajiri
Two Thousand Club
Money IS useful. But it's not a game breaker. You need it for many things. Paying your army of loyal soldiers. Arming them. Feeding them. Maintaining the community you rule, if any. Keeping yourself looking properly posh and heroic. Building your evil mad scientist laboratory so you can engage in artifice. Paying your assistants in such research. Paying the your crew when building a manse.
Of course, you can get around many of these costs if you're creative, but money isn't something to completely ignore, either.
Some things, money can't buy. For everything else, there's resources.
In my games, generally Resources are a tool, not an ends in and of themselves. You want to raise an army...you need to pay them, arm them, feed them. This doesn't just happen on its own. You need subordinate officers. You need a place to stay. Resources can help with these things a great deal.
In DG's game down below. I've got Captain Michael Stewart. Army Captain, local warlord in Crearth, a world gone to hell. He has Influence 4 (Warlord of one small city), Resources 3 (The city's resources are heavily tied up in survival at the moment, and much of the infrastructure is collapsed, but being warlord of an area does have SOME perks), Command 2 (The military unit he brought with him). Would he like a larger and more stable military arm? Yes. But he doesn't have the resources to supply them. If he wants to seriously build a larger military that can be used as more than throw away militia, he's going to need to find more resources of some sort. They need weapons. They need body armor. They need fed. His manse supplies quarters, for now, as do various buildings in the city. But all the background tie together. He wouldn't be warlord without the Command. But he wouldn't be able to hold together the Command without the resources gained from defending the community and taking charge.
Most backgrounds don't live in a void. Resources without other backgrounds aren't really much. They are more useful in supporting other backgrounds, or helping you develop them than in direct use. Even so, raising an army takes more than just money. The story isn't about putting 5 Talents of Jade down and buying an army. It's about what you do with them once you get them...and how you get them, too. Resources don't exist in a vacuum.
Similarly, you can have all the money in the world, and if you're in the wrong area of Creation, it's useless. Show up in gem with cowrie shells from the far West, and traders will look at you like you're mad, not like you're rich. Sure, Jade and Silver are nearly universal...but there's a reason for both. And Jade can make you a target. It IS one of the magical materials. Large amounts of it, and beings of magical power may be looking to take yours and make it into artifacts. Silver on the other hand is only worth what you think it is. But its acceptance isn't universal, either...and its value can vary depending on the location.
Of course, you can get around many of these costs if you're creative, but money isn't something to completely ignore, either.
Some things, money can't buy. For everything else, there's resources.
In my games, generally Resources are a tool, not an ends in and of themselves. You want to raise an army...you need to pay them, arm them, feed them. This doesn't just happen on its own. You need subordinate officers. You need a place to stay. Resources can help with these things a great deal.
In DG's game down below. I've got Captain Michael Stewart. Army Captain, local warlord in Crearth, a world gone to hell. He has Influence 4 (Warlord of one small city), Resources 3 (The city's resources are heavily tied up in survival at the moment, and much of the infrastructure is collapsed, but being warlord of an area does have SOME perks), Command 2 (The military unit he brought with him). Would he like a larger and more stable military arm? Yes. But he doesn't have the resources to supply them. If he wants to seriously build a larger military that can be used as more than throw away militia, he's going to need to find more resources of some sort. They need weapons. They need body armor. They need fed. His manse supplies quarters, for now, as do various buildings in the city. But all the background tie together. He wouldn't be warlord without the Command. But he wouldn't be able to hold together the Command without the resources gained from defending the community and taking charge.
Most backgrounds don't live in a void. Resources without other backgrounds aren't really much. They are more useful in supporting other backgrounds, or helping you develop them than in direct use. Even so, raising an army takes more than just money. The story isn't about putting 5 Talents of Jade down and buying an army. It's about what you do with them once you get them...and how you get them, too. Resources don't exist in a vacuum.
Similarly, you can have all the money in the world, and if you're in the wrong area of Creation, it's useless. Show up in gem with cowrie shells from the far West, and traders will look at you like you're mad, not like you're rich. Sure, Jade and Silver are nearly universal...but there's a reason for both. And Jade can make you a target. It IS one of the magical materials. Large amounts of it, and beings of magical power may be looking to take yours and make it into artifacts. Silver on the other hand is only worth what you think it is. But its acceptance isn't universal, either...and its value can vary depending on the location.
