DB multi-form charm and Immaculate DFT's

[reverendmort]

So, I got a DB who counts it among his goals to master and fuse all five Immaculate Dragon Styles due to horrible heretical reinterpretations of the Immaculate Philosophy. To bolster this, I was hoping to craft a charm that allows me to use more than one Immaculate form at once, and both me and my GM would love to get some input on it.


FIVE-TAILED DRAGON UNITY


Cost: -; Mins: Martial arts 6, Essence 6; Type: Permanent


Keywords:


Duration: Permanent


Prerequisite charms: Complete mastery of one Immaculate Dragon style


As the five Elemental Dragons balance Creation, so too must the Dragon-blooded let the five elements balance her soul. Only by achieving elemental harmony within their bodies can the Princes of the Earth reach Enlightenment, and this technique is the first step on that glorious Road.


Purchase of this charm allows the Dragon-blooded to permanently upgrade one Immaculate Dragon style which she has mastered. Once she does so, that style's Form charm no longer counts against the number of form-type charms she may have active at once, though it otherwise continues to function as it previously has, including it's activation cost. This charm may be repurchased to apply it's benefits to another Immaculate Dragon style which it owner has mastered. However once the Dragon-Blooded learns this charm for any style but that of his own Aspect, his Anima becomes permanently and irrevocably tainted by the element of the style he's learned. Green vines might twist across a Water-aspects iconic wave, or the rumblings of a mountain might be heard in the roaring flames of a Fire-Aspects blazing aura. This has no mechanical effects, but clearly marks the change in the Dragon-Blooded soul for all to see.


Too good? Not good enough?


Another question I have concerns the recently introduced concept of dynamic form transitions. Would you consider it acceptable to apply these to the Immaculate Styles?

 

[Cryoseraph]

I would say first read over the Sidereal MA of Prismatic Creation, as that is the only known set-up that combines form-charms, for a reference point. Since this is a Celestial level charm, a bit higher pre-reqs than 'Prismatic' Style would be better. From that point, I'd actually run with the idea that it is your goal to combine the styles together that lets you create the charm. I'd suggest something more like:

Enlightened Bastard Offspring
Cost: - (+1wp); Mins: Martial Arts 6, Essence 6


Type: Permanent; Duration: Permanent


Prerequisites: Two Complete Immaculate Dragon Styles


As the five Elemental Dragons balance Creation, so too must the Dragon-blooded let the five elements balance her soul. But true enlightenment rejects the perceived weaknesses of the world for a higher purpose, and this technique is the first step on that glorious Road.


Purchase of this charm allows the Dragon-blooded to permanently combine two Immaculate Dragon styles which she has mastered, and combine them into a single unique style. Once she does so, one style's Form charm can be used simultaneously with the Form charm of the other style, having both active at once, though it otherwise continues to function as it previously has, including it's activation cost. Only these two form charms may work simultaneously, and may be activated simultaneously by spending an additional willpower (like their own little combo).


This charm may be repurchased a second time at these stat requirements; and a third and fourth time at Essence 7, Martial Arts 7; to apply it's benefits to another Immaculate Dragon style which it owner has mastered. However, once the Dragon-Blooded learns this charm for any style but that of his own Aspect, his Anima becomes permanently and irrevocably tainted by the element of the style he's absorbed. Green vines of seaweed might twist across a Water Aspect's iconic wave, or the rumblings of a volcanic mountain might be heard with the roaring flames of a Fire Aspect's blazing aura. This has no mechanical effects, but clearly marks the change in the Dragon-Blooded soul for all to see. Obviously, no traditional Immaculate monk will accept such a blasphemous stain on a fellow's soul.

Tried to use as many of your words as I could, but tweaked it here and there for balancing hopefully. Sound any better? I'd also suggest a second charm to allow form weapons to bridge the gap between styles, maybe that one at MA 5, Essence 5 once you have two mastered styles.

 

[reverendmort]

Sounds very good, actually, and I appreciate the effort of actually rewriting it. However, just to make sure I get this right:


At first purchase, I buy, say, Earth Dragon and Air Dragon. I can now either activate both at once, at the cost of a willpower and their combined standard cost. Or I can activate one as normal, and then on my next turn activate the other as normal and still stack them, without a willpower cost, correct?


At second purchase, I add a third style, say Wood Dragon. I could now Activate all three for their combined cost plus a willpower, or any combination of the three I wish to think up. So I could activate Earth Dragon, mess around, put up Wood Dragon to stop myself from dying from ping, play the horrible soak monster for a while and then throw up Air Dragon later. Also correct?


And the form weapon thing is not a bad idea. Master's Hand Envisioned Anew puts such things at essence 6, however. Or is the limit of "Only from one Immaculate style to another" enough of a limiter to warrant the decrease in cost?

 

[Revoke]

I was going to suggest pretty much what Cryoseraph did. The important point is you're not removing the Form-Type keyword from the form charm, you're allowing specific form charms to be used together. My understanding of his suggestion (and, IIRC, how PAoC Form works) is that you activate the forms one after another, with separate actions.


It's also worth noting whether you intend to allow the bonuses to stack (especially if you're getting the ability to cross-apply form weapons). For example (IIRC, after errata) both Air Dragon and Fire Dragon forms grant bonus dice to unarmed attacks. Do you allow these to stack? You're capped at the excellency limit at any rate, but it's worth considering.


As a (possibly lower essence) alternative, you might consider a charm which allows you to reflexively switch between the form charms for a small surcharge, in the manner of Arms of the Unconquered Sun Style (I forget the name of the charm...somethingsomething heavy stairway, I think).


On the subject of dynamic form transitions: all new material seems to be getting them, so I consider them to be errata-in-waiting for all styles. If you can come up with some neat conditions, pitch them to your ST.

 

[Red Shadow Claws]

Your mileage might vary, but I'd never allow such a thing in any game I'm running. It seems to me to be out of theme for the Dragon-Blooded. If it were a Charm that allowed Dragon-Bloods to share the benefits of a Form-type Charm with other Dragon-Bloods, yeah, I can see that working.


The Only Exalts really concerned with MAs, are the Sidereal, and if it takes a SMA Charm to do so, I fail to see why DBs should get anything similar.


I'll end my rant here.

 

[Greenstalker]

Your mileage might vary, but I'd never allow such a thing in any game I'm running. It seems to me to be out of theme for the Dragon-Blooded. If it were a Charm that allowed Dragon-Bloods to share the benefits of a Form-type Charm with other Dragon-Bloods, yeah, I can see that working.
The Only Exalts really concerned with MAs, are the Sidereal, and if it takes a SMA Charm to do so, I fail to see why DBs should get anything similar.


I'll end my rant here.

Umm because sidereals want to make db's as potent in martial arts as possible? Seriously they tried to even teach SMA to DB's (not ended well) but I don't think there is anything stoping them to try something like this.

 

[Revoke]

Your mileage might vary, but I'd never allow such a thing in any game I'm running. It seems to me to be out of theme for the Dragon-Blooded. If it were a Charm that allowed Dragon-Bloods to share the benefits of a Form-type Charm with other Dragon-Bloods, yeah, I can see that working.
The Only Exalts really concerned with MAs, are the Sidereal, and if it takes a SMA Charm to do so, I fail to see why DBs should get anything similar.


I'll end my rant here.

You know, this is actually a fair point. I didn't comment on whether you should do this or not, only what it might look like if you did. I probably wouldn't allow it in a game I was running, and certainly not if the form bonuses were stacking. Dragonbloods usually don't get the break the rules like that. Allowing them to break form charm restrictions is pretty out there. The only existing example of an effect like that is Sidereal martial arts, which are solar-level and known for breaking the rules in weird ways.


I'd probably allow a reflexive form-changing charm. Say, 2m, once per action, switch between any elemental dragon form charm. That would be an option with a bit more system credibility.

Umm because sidereals want to make db's as potent in martial arts as possible? Seriously they tried to even teach SMA to DB's (not ended well) but I don't think there is anything stoping them to try something like this.

I have to disagree; 'because the Sidereals want it' is not a good enough reason. Given the existing material, we might infer that form-stacking requires sidereal martial arts, in which case it's out of bounds for DBs.

 

[Cryoseraph]

Hmm, it seems like some of my assumed subtleties didn't make it onto the thread from how I wrote my version, so let me throw some extra descriptions out there. In-Game wise, I've described the concept of this charm as heretical, and the Immaculate Texts to not support its idea. However, since the concept may require the meddling of a Sidereal to help pull off this off, some might think that they would go easy on him. I say the opposite instead, as even if the described Siddie is Bronze Faction, such 'heretical' charms would put him on Kejak's shitlist.


Mechanically, it is true that this seems powerful, and I do draw from Prismatic Arrangement for inspiration, but not from the ultimate charm. I draw instead from the lower 'Five Magical Materials Form' charm. Limited effects, limited combinations by comparison. And if you notice the pre-req's, they are painfully simple. Mine by comparison require two fully completed styles, and Essence and MA of 6. This means no mortal length game can use it, as it requires power beyond mortal reach and beyond the skills of mortal Martial Artists on a fundamental level. The only thing I'd stretch to call overpowered in the charm is the built-in combo of the forms to help describe the understanding involved in combining them.


Thirdly, on a conceptual level, while I did design this with a DB in mind, I designed it as a Martial Arts charm, not a Terrestrial Charm. I would be okay with Solars/Lunars/Sidereals learning a similar charm, though it would need to be similarly limited to just two styles combining, and should probably have a different effect than permanently staining the anima of the user for Celestial types. This portion is inspired by the Ink-Monkey written 'Cobra Style', which is a Sidereal creating that style from knowledge of two previous styles and mixing them together for new effects. Also, if the Ink monkeys are moving the game towards dynamic Form changes in game, its best to set the eventual 'two at once' idea at a high bar before Solars get to do it at Essence 3/4 or some wacky idea like that.

 

[Lord Kamina]

So, I got a DB who counts it among his goals to master and fuse all five Immaculate Dragon Styles due to horrible heretical reinterpretations of the Immaculate Philosophy. To bolster this, I was hoping to craft a charm that allows me to use more than one Immaculate form at once, and both me and my GM would love to get some input on it.
FIVE-TAILED DRAGON UNITY


Cost: -; Mins: Martial arts 6, Essence 6; Type: Permanent


Keywords:


Duration: Permanent


Prerequisite charms: Complete mastery of one Immaculate Dragon style


As the five Elemental Dragons balance Creation, so too must the Dragon-blooded let the five elements balance her soul. Only by achieving elemental harmony within their bodies can the Princes of the Earth reach Enlightenment, and this technique is the first step on that glorious Road.


Purchase of this charm allows the Dragon-blooded to permanently upgrade one Immaculate Dragon style which she has mastered. Once she does so, that style's Form charm no longer counts against the number of form-type charms she may have active at once, though it otherwise continues to function as it previously has, including it's activation cost. This charm may be repurchased to apply it's benefits to another Immaculate Dragon style which it owner has mastered. However once the Dragon-Blooded learns this charm for any style but that of his own Aspect, his Anima becomes permanently and irrevocably tainted by the element of the style he's learned. Green vines might twist across a Water-aspects iconic wave, or the rumblings of a mountain might be heard in the roaring flames of a Fire-Aspects blazing aura. This has no mechanical effects, but clearly marks the change in the Dragon-Blooded soul for all to see.


Too good? Not good enough?


Another question I have concerns the recently introduced concept of dynamic form transitions. Would you consider it acceptable to apply these to the Immaculate Styles?

You might want to read a style I posted ages ago... Ah, here: http://www.patternspider.net/threads/five-dragons-one-ultimate-truth-style-the-complete-rewrite.6161/#post-119898

 

[xarvh]

The charm allows the use of DB MA with OTHER styles, while I think a more appropriate theme would make it work with OTHER DB MA styles.


Charm to be bought only once, but as a prereq has two complete DB styles.


Allows to shift reflexively between any DB MA form for 1m cost.

 

[gatherer818]

I'm working on an Immaculate who Exalted as a Solar and I'm looking for a Charm like this one... a CMA Charm that permits the use of multiple Immaculate Form-type Charms, although it's probably going to be too powerful for DBs. I'll probably make one myself that doesn't require re-purchases but also doesn't crossbreed form weapons, only giving you the benefits of the Forms and the other duration-effects, while your attacks are limited to what's valid for your weapon (so you can mix and match Charms freely when attacking barehanded, but you can only deliver Wood Dragon Charms with your bow or Water Dragon Charms with your claws.


I might consider a high Essence repurchase that relaxes that as well. Either way, when I finish it, I'll post here as an alternative to see what you guys think.

 

[Captain Hesperus]

All I can think of in that respect is something similar to Crowning Sun Form from Arms of the Unconquered Sun and Master's Hand Envisioned Anew from DotFA


Captain Hesperus