"Dark" Gods

[Ned]

I've been playing a game set in An Teng recently and one of the recent plot twists is that the Pale Lady, An Teng's Goddess of Chaos and instability, has allied with rebel forces trying to retake the country. Of course, allying with her means that the new regieme will be cursed with chaos.


This led me to thinking about at what lengths a God is willing to go to forfill their motivation if it means putting creation, or those that worship them, in danger. Seeing as her motivation is to bring chaos to An Teng, would she go as far to ally with yozi worshippers, deathlords or even fair folk? Does she gain any essence for putting An Teng into chaos, or is it only prayers to her that give her any power?


According to the rule book, a God exists for every item, location and ideal in creation. But, are there Gods of ideals that involve the mass destruction of Creation.  Gods of disease, famine, murder, etc. Do Gods like this exist, and if they do, do they get power come from toppling Kingdoms with disease/famines/genocide or must they keep people alive to pray for them? Do gods like this have to betray their motivation to keep getting prayers? Is there an overall God of the destruction of Creation, which may have had to be assigned because a group of people started to worship him?


What about Gods who gain power as shadowlands spread, or Yozi worship becomes widespread? If there aren't any currently, what happens if a group of people sit by a shadowlands and call for its God to arrive, would a God have to be assigned?


In summary: How far would a God go for their motivation, and are there Gods dedicated to endangering creation?

 

[skafte]

Those Gods do exist, remember there is a god of ruins, can't remember his name.


These Gods have always given me a bad taste, they doesn't really fit into the big picture, maybe to start with, but with Deathlords around it just seem wrong.

 

[Ned]

But, how much power does he get just from ruins existing, if any? Would he benfit from organising a city to be destroyed to give him more power?


What I'm asking that would any of these types of Gods benefit from wholesale destruction, or is it only the prayers they recieve from living people that are of benefit to them. I haven't had a chance to get my hands on GoD or the Siderials book so I'm not sure how Gods benfit from or empowering/enlarging their domains versus worship.


For example, say we have a God of disease(we'll call him Travis) and a God of a shadowlands(we'll call him Bob). Would they team up to send a plague to a nearby city, killing the inhabitants which absorbs it into the shadowlands? If the people in the town worship them(or simply beg them not to let the shadowlands/disease enter the city, kind of like how people "worship" the pale lady) then would they lose power from destroying the city? Since Travis' motivation would be spreading the disease and Bob's motivation is spreading shadowlands, would they even be able consider the net loss in power?

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

It's doubtful there is a true god of the Shadowlands, any more than there is a god of Malfeas or the Wyld. It's not at all a natural state of Creation. Some might argue with me on this point, but outside of gods corrupted with the one Necromancy spell that makes them gods of the Underworld, such seems unlikely.


As for gods gaining strength from their portfolio growing...well, that is quite likely. That includes someone such as Amoth City Destroyer encouraging the destruction of cities (which he has done). As for whether the god in question would ally with the enemies of Creation...that depends on how corrupt they are. Fair Folk is doubtful...most powerful gods lived through the Contagion and saw what the Fair Folk are capable of...that kind of wholesale destruction of Creation isn't likely to be helpful to them. It's doubtful they would support something that long term would cut into their power so...and possibly lead to their demise. The beings of the Underworld and Malfeas perhaps are more likely to find an ally...but only among those who are quite corrupt...not just those encouraging a negative portfolio. The oldest gods remember the Primordial War...and what their leaders, and themselves did to the Primordials...and that they hold long grudges. It would take either a very gutsy or very corrupt god to take the risk allying with either...particullarlly with the Yozi's, who they certainly know have good reason to be pissed. However, it's possible some of the very eldest gods never STOPPED being loyal to the Yozi's...

 

[Ker'ion]

According to what I have seen of said God of Ruins, he seems to get his power based on the amount of ruined cities, not his worshipers.  He is written out as someone who will get quite pissed at anyone who tries to resurect a forgotten city, so I'd say he doesn't give a damn about his worshipers and their problems, unless they are specifically being helpful to his cause.


As for a conflict of motivations, I'd roll it normally, with the Intimacy being their worshipers and the Motivation being death and destruction.


I'm not sure how this is resolved in 2E.  If it's not mentioned, I'd make it basically a Conviction roll versus a Compassion roll.  Conviction for their cause versus Compassion for their followers.

 

[Haku1]

Ned, such "dark gods" do exist. Heck, there are even Gods of the Contagion, who were taller than the tallest buildings at the height of the contagion.


As for the question of the two spirits, I would offhand say that they -might- work together, but it's unlikely.


Also, the god of distruction of cities and such DOES get power from cities getting ruined, he got a HUGE boost during the Urspation, Contagion, and Fey Invasion. Due to the decline of his rivals in the Cel4estial Hierarchy and that his portfolio/domain actually increased.

 

[wordman]

What I'm asking that would any of these types of Gods benefit from wholesale destruction, or is it only the prayers they receive from living people that are of benefit to them.

I think the canonical answer is "both, but mostly the latter".


Gods receive a direct benefit from prayers to them: ambrosia. This is, essentially, celestial money, but also a raw material. Many gods use this for much the same thing humans do: survival first, then creature comforts like better food, a bigger house (e.g. sanctum), etc. One important note here: heaven also distributes ambrosia generate by generic prayers (i.e. those not targeted at a specific god) based on status in the hierarchy, so there is incentive to encourage prayer in general, with the incentive increasing as you ascend the hierarchy. (Generally though, direct prayer to you is better.)


Gods could receive an indirect benefit from wholesale destruction if it expanded the domain over which they preside. This is not like In Nomine, where you control a "word" and gain in power by increasing the influence of the word. Instead, it is more of a political thing. As an example, say a river god lets his river overflow and ravage a bunch of villages. Clearly, the river become more prominent in the eyes of the villagers, but this does not directly help the river god. What does help him directly is that, in order to avoid more flooding, the villagers may start offering him prayers.


Similarly, a disease god might unleash a disease in order to get prayers and offerings, bribes from people in the hope of avoiding infection. Basically, unscrupulous gods can use spiritual blackmail to get prayers.


They can also get more earthly influence, now that they are not actually doing their jobs. They might use this influence for benefit in spiritual ways. As an example, a spirit might do wreak havoc at the behest of a terrestrial, who then rewards it by allowing it to turn a demesne the terrestrial controls into a sanctum. Or, maybe it is in exchange for the terrestrial to to either pull strings to depose (or even flat out kill) the spirit's rival in heaven. The spirit then uses the havoc he caused as an example of why he is better suited to hold the position his formal rival held.

 

[Sherwood]

I can also see those gods getting prayers asking them to spare their crops/city/family from disaster.

 

[Arthur]

Just for the record, Ruins of Rathess presents, in page 67, a god called Han-Tha, that is preety much a dark god. He eats dead people.

 

[Charon]

In summary: How far would a God go for their motivation, and are there Gods dedicated to endangering creation?

I don't think there can be a god whose purpose is to endanger creation.  Not only doesn't it make sense logically, it doesn't make sense thematically.  But I guess there could be a god whose purpose endangers creation.  Not every organism is in perfect balance with its environment.  


A god of pestilence doesn't want creation to end or he will die and there will be no more plague for him to enjoy.  But if his plagues ravage creation too much, it will be weakened for the Raksha and Deathlord to take over.  So his purpose endangers creation even though that's not something that this god really wants.

 

[Persell]

*sigh* Always these cliches.


A god of destruction or disease is not neccessarily a bad person. Everything has to end, cities, civilizations, lifes. Everything. That is part of the plan for every single thing. That is what the maiden and the bureau of endings are there for, they even have sidereals for that.


So, while a god of diseases can be a vile and boring killer like many people in here think, he can also be a dutiful hero of the celestial bureaucrazy, spreading diseases carefully and only when he has order to end a huge amount of people. He might even hate his job, perhaps he was the god of some minor illness before and liked that people would be stronger after they defeated his illness and when his old master, the god of vile diseases, god crafted into soulsteel for being an ass our little god of minor illnesses and people growing stronger through them inherited a job, a job he now hates but does but the maiden of endings told him it was important.


He could also be a could hearted bureaucrat, counting every life he has to take but never taking even a single life more. A lot of paperwork involved of course. He would of course always be neatly clothed and host complicated tea parties which show no sign of diseases or misfortune, after all you have to divide job and spare time!


So, yes there are gods of "negative" principles. But those principles are not negative really, and neither are they dark. They are neccessary for how creation works. A life is defined by a beginning and an end. Being the one who ends lifes doesn't make you popular but it is a job that has to be done, too.

 

[Flyck]

Why does this make me think of a lobster dinner gone horribly wrong, with giant mutant lobsters attacking everyone, and the goddess of chaos' only response is "This is awful...  I forgot the butter!"?


Personally, I'd say that a god or goddess of chaos would take a very erratic and irrational method to achieve a goal.  I don't think they'd necessarily take to methods of direct sacrifice of their worshipers...  unless they were heavily bent on corruption or evil.

 

[Persell]

Why does this make me think of a lobster dinner gone horribly wrong, with giant mutant lobsters attacking everyone, and the goddess of chaos' only response is "This is awful...  I forgot the butter!"?

Hehehehe, that is awesome.

 

[Jukashi]

Why does this make me think of a lobster dinner gone horribly wrong, with giant mutant lobsters attacking everyone, and the goddess of chaos' only response is "This is awful...  I forgot the butter!"?

That's from The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. Good show.

 

[Arthur]

NOW we know what Jukashi has been doing instead of creating The Keychain  :lol:


But I believe I've watched that one too.

 

[Ned]

Yeah, I saw that one too


I know that not all Gods are bad, but in the case when the God only thinks about forfilling his duties, how far can he go before he gets into trouble? "This city's time is up, if I nudge a few people over here to mine then they will activate a first age weapon that kills everyone in the area. Now there's a shadowlands there. Woops. Oh well, it's not my problem as long as the city is gone. Yay promotion!"


What did the Gods of the Contagion actually do? Did they help spread the disease? If they did, would they have benifited from it? (could be a cool conspiracy theory to unearth ingame).


Something kind of related to this, how does the the worship a God recieve define him. If a group of people claim that their Island God looks and acts a certain way, will the God find himself looking and acting like this? If a brand new cult forms and the leader makes up a God for it, will the bureacracy have to pick up an unemployed God and throw him down there? Will this God's personality and beliefs change based on the description of the cult's God?


In effect, can a group of people decide that they need a God that acts a certain way, and then get the God they want?

 

[Flyck]

Was there a god of the contagion?  I thought that since the Deathlords created it, and unleashed it, that it was outside of the laws of creation.  Hence, there were no gods of it.


And yes, Billy and Mandy is an awsome show.

 

[Charon]

*sigh* Always these cliches...

What a whole lot of wasted electron.


I didn't even use the word dark, evil or even naughty and I get this response.


I was only adressing the part of the OP I quoted.  My post had nothing to do with the morality of a plague.

 

[Haku1]

Was there a god of the contagion?  I thought that since the Deathlords created it, and unleashed it, that it was outside of the laws of creation.  Hence, there were no gods of it.
And yes, Billy and Mandy is an awsome show.

Yes, there WERE gods of the contagion disease. Surprising, non? Check out the entry on disease spirits in GoD.

 

[Persell]

*sigh* Always these cliches...

What a whole lot of wasted electron.


I didn't even use the word dark, evil or even naughty and I get this response.


I was only adressing the part of the OP I quoted.  My post had nothing to do with the morality of a plague.

To be frank, there are half a dozen posts before yours, what makes you think my comment was aimed specifically at your post, our posts even express similar lines of thought, as there is not a great gap between your "faithful to creation god of disease" to my "upright bureaucrat of disease".


In short, get a thicker skin for the internet.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Oh, Safim, I certainly agree that a god of a negative concept could be a completely loyal member of the Celestial Bureaucracy, If you though my own post was saying that was impossible...certainly not. However, it also is not automatic. Some may be hideously corrupt. Others might take a bribe now and again. Another might defend Creation vigorously, unleashing their diseases as a weapon against its enemies...or those they percieve as it's enemies...there are a nigh infinite number of gods...and possibilities.

 

[Persell]

My "*sigh*" was not really aimed at anyone in particular and certainly not made as an attack at anyone. I think it was just worthy pointing out that this was possible as the OP did not seem to have thought of it and nobody had pointed it out yet. I was just being theatratical. Semester is over, and my 50 pages of essays on law start only next week, ergo... too much energy ^^

 

[Vanman]

It's doubtful there is a true god of the Shadowlands' date=' any more than there is a god of Malfeas or the Wyld. It's not at all a natural state of Creation. Some might argue with me on this point, but outside of gods corrupted with the one Necromancy spell that makes them gods of the Underworld, such seems unlikely.[/quote']
I'm with LK on this one. It doesn't seem....right that there are gods for those things outside of Creation. Gods are, by their very nature, of Creation - they are the overseers of Creation (in a perfect world). The Underworld, Malfeas and the Wyld are, by their very nature, not of Creation - so there wouldn't really be a god or gods of these domains. Because they aren't of Creation.


Just my two cents.

 

[Haku1]

I agree that there wouldn't be gods of the wyld, malfeas or even the underworld.


There will, however, be gods of the border between Creation and the Wyld, whose job is to keep absolute fucking track of where Creation ends and what have you.


On the other hand, things like insanity, disease, 'natural' deaths of living critters, revolutions, people fighting and killing each other... those belong to Creation.

 

[Vanman]

There will, however, be gods of the border between Creation and the Wyld, whose job is to keep absolute fucking track of where Creation ends and what have you.

I suppose the question is whether a shadowland would be considered one of these areas. I'm not sure it would, but I suppose an argument could be made for either position.


On the other hand, things like insanity, disease, 'natural' deaths of living critters, revolutions, people fighting and killing each other... those belong to Creation.


No question. I was never doubting that. I agree wholeheartedly.