Curing the Great Curse - and then what?

[Solfi]

Ok, this has been on my mind from time to time...


I've been wanting to use the curing of the Great Curse as a possible long, LONG-term goal for my players in a campaign (... that never seems to get off the ground due to time constraints. Meh. Whatever. Still fun to ponder). I've been having a couple of problems coming up with suitably dramatic and interesting options for a few key events:


- How to give the PC-group a chance to realize something is wrong (the Great Curse is not widely recognized after all).


- Options for actually defeating the Great Curse. On the personal level? Or for all Exalts? What about other Exalt types than the own?


But the greatest problem I've been having, is rules-wise... IF the PCs were successful, would I simply drop the Great Curse, or do I replace the mechanic with something else, perhaps less insidious?


I suppose this comes from playing too much White Wolf games for too long... I feel naked without my PC:s having a pivotal flaw of some sort! It's always been there, in all WW:s games! Y'know what I'm talking about!... The symmetry would be lost!!! Aaagh! The horror!

 

[Persell]

I'm not sure how you could have them realize the Great Curse, but once they go on this epic quest, going down so many, many avenues, I would make it so that the only way they could escape the Great Curse is to renounce their Exaltation.

 

[Solfi]

... that wouldn't be a cure, now would it? The shard would still be tainted, no? So that doesn't really answer my question...


... also, there's been more than one example of people who exalted who didn't exactly relish the idea of becoming Anathema... if losing the exaltation was a simple matter of renouncing, they would do so. But it's not.

 

[Kremlin KOA]

Alohahaha if such was the only option, given the threats the world is under. I would keep the curse.... and begin to educate other solars about it so we can create a system of watching over each other to mitigate its effects.


Because if all exalts renounce their power... Creation is doomed


Solfi: in my campaign I let te first hints of it fall into the lap of one of my copper spiders (twilight caste for the 1st age uneducated). He got a diary from is previous incarnation mentoning studies of 'the great madness' and theories on it


it is little more than noting the madness in ealts, and trying to reference types and causes. it doesn;t go very far. but it doesallow the char to look into cures and ways to mitigate it

 

[Persell]

That was the whole point, Solfi - that there isn't a cure for the Great Curse and any quest for it would be futile.  The Great Curse would be as intrinsic in Creation as life as death is.  It's part of nature and the absence of the Great Curse is actually an aberration, not a fix.  But that's just my opinion of it.


If you wanted them to get hints of it you should let them find out from the only ones who know about it and would divulge it - the Yozis themselves.  It would be very interesting to get them involved.  Going this route, the Yozis could strike a bargain with the Exalted to renounce the Great Curse they placed on them in exchange for being freed from Malfeas.  Now that would be interesting.


I don't know if the Exalted would ever notice how mad they are, though.  Would a schizophrenic be able to diagnose bipolar disorder in somebody else?  The gods might notice that the Exalted are a little whacky but then they'd probably think that that's just their nature and is to be expected, just like Italians are the way they are and the Chinese are the way they are.  They would need someone from outside the system looking in to point it out.

 

[Jack1]

As regards discovering the great curse, it neednt be so difficut.


Kremlin's already hit on one possible solution, records from the first age. These could come n the form of diaries, research notes, public records or even cave paintings. These records alone could be enough to pique the characters curiosity,.


Other options would be testimony from an old Siderial or Lunar, someone who was around during the last days of the solar deliberative. They could attest to the madness of the Solar Exalted, and maybe drop the next clue for the players to follow.


In a world as big and as diverse as creation, there is no knowledge that isnt hld by someone, somwhere. To say that nobody knows about the great curse is really quite silly, its been three thousand or more years since the primordial war, and there have been great minds pondering the madness of the exalted for that whole length of time. Someone must at least have their suspicions, if not, Nara-o probaby knows. Failing all else, I imagine that third and maybe even second circle demons have all the details, since it was their masters who inflicted to curse in the first place.


As regards actually curing the curse, it should be a highly personal affair. Nothing so simple as just drinking the magic potion you've spent centuries getting the ingredients for and brewing, but rather a confrontation with your own exalted nature. This could take the form of roleplaying out sessions of evangelionesque soul searching, or something a little more grounded, like the opening scenes of kingdom hearts or Ichigo's trips to Zangetsu's world in Bleach or it could be living a particular lifestyle, such as that of an ascetic monk. Either way, it should very much be a spiritual experience rather than a material one.


Of course reaching the point where they can finally conquer the curse should be the end of a very very long road. It strikes me that the themes for this kind of game would be very much along the lines of exploring the various aspects of the character. The journey should be just as important as the destination in this kind of game, with each experience the character has leading him to a greater understadnign of himself. Encounters should be specificaly designed to force the chaacters to examine themselves and their motives over and over again.


Finally, as regards leaving the characters with some flaw, just because its a WW game would feel very cheap for me if I was playing in this game. It realy would be horrifically anticlimactic if, after all their hard work, the players found their limit pool increased by ten points, or found themselves subject to vampire frenzies. Seriously, if they actually manage to break the great curse, let them be. They've earned the right to play their own characters without the constraints of outdated game design in their way.

 

[Persell]

Because if all exalts renounce their power... Creation is doomed

But how many threats to Creation have been caused by the Exalted?  Creation is threatened by the Abyssal Exalted.  The Abyssals were created by the Deathlords, who are ghosts of Solar Exalted.  Those Solars were killed during the Usurpation because of the Sidereal Exalted.  The reasons why the Sidereal Exalted caused the Usurpation is because of the decadence and corruption of the Solar Exalted.  Don't forget - power corrupts.  If nobody had power then the world could have been less corrupted.  That's what the Sidereal Exalted was going for when they chose the Bronze option.

 

[Jukashi]

If you wanted them to get hints of it you should let them find out from the only ones who know about it and would divulge it - the Yozis themselves.  It would be very interesting to get them involved.  Going this route, the Yozis could strike a bargain with the Exalted to renounce the Great Curse they placed on them in exchange for being freed from Malfeas.  Now that would be interesting.

As I've said before on this subject: The Yozis can't remove the curse.


They didn't even place it in the first place.


It was the primordials that died, the Neverborn, who with their last breath placed the curse on the gods, and through their shielding of themselves it rebounded on the Exalted. It's the death-curse, which has appeared in mythology before. So...


1) A death-curse is typically very powerful, one of the most powerful effects a being can bring to bear, ever.


2) As such, the Neverborn had their full power of primordials behind it. Worse, they all placed the Curse. That's massive power right there.


3) The Yozis, though more powerful than almost anything else, are twisted, tortured and ultimately somewhat lessened versions of their former primordial selves.


4) Thus, they likely do not have the raw power necessary to counter the death-curse of complete (though dying) primordial, and likely would not undertake such a monumental effort even if they had their full power.


In short: The Yozis did not place the Great Curse, and they do not have the ability to remove it, at least through application of raw power. If the Yozis outnumber the Neverborn then perhaps all of them together could do it, but the cure would probably be indescribably worse than the disease.


The best way I think is to use the Wyld somehow. A Charm that allows guidance of the Wyld's effects (rather than complete domination, which likely wouldn't do much) could perhaps dissolve the Great Curse if directed properly. You'd end up with shards that are somewhat ooey-gooey, but looking at the Lunars, that doesn't seem so bad.

 

[Flagg]

Makes me wonder what sort of death curse an Exalt might be capable of?


-S

 

[Jukashi]

For the most powerful one they can muster, it's right there in the BWB sorcery section.


As for untrained, however, it's not canonically assured that anything other than primordials can utter a death-curse. Death-curses in mythology are normally reserved for gods or equally powerful beings, but that could be partly because such curses actually have an effect, since a normal human doesn't have much power behind their words, even in death.


Also, death-curses are evil things and uttering one probably stains your soul quite badly. Using one indicates that your very last thoughts are of revenge and hatred, making for a very unclean death.


Exalts would have such power, but the precise effects would be left up to a set of proper House Rules.

 

[wordman]

It was the primordials that died, the Neverborn, who with their last breath placed the curse on the gods, and through their shielding of themselves it rebounded on the Exalted. It's the death-curse, which has appeared in mythology before.

The great thing about curses in mythology is that there always seems to be a catch, some sort of escape clause that destroys it. In Ladyhawke, it was that both the man and the woman had to stand before the bishop at the same time. There are other examples.


Some book (one of the Thomas Covenant books, maybe?) postulated that the reason for this was that truly perfect magic could not exist in an imperfect world.


Anyway, in curing the great curse, I'd think the best path to the cure would be something along the "loophole" line. Suppose they "merely" had to ressurrect the Neverborn? Or, perhaps the curse would lift if the whole concept of Exhaltation was somehow taken out of the hands of the gods (the curse's original target) and, perhaps, put in the hands of mortals.


Another path could be something like: since the Neverborn had never been dead before, suppose they didn't know exactly what they were doing in their new state and a flaw was introduced somehow.


In my campaign, I have an Illuminati-like organization called Sundial. The PC's have been dealing with them, but I haven't figured out their ultimate aim yet. One possibility is that it is run by an extremely old sidereal who actually recognized the great curse at the very beginning, but because of the way the curse works on sidereals, was unable to convince anyone. He now works alone, searching for ways to cure it. Unfortunately, because of the curse, he has a bit of a mental block in realizing how the curse affects him or sidereals, and is under the assumption it only effects solars and lunars, and this has been throwing off his research.

 

[Jukashi]

Strangely, there are references to the Lunars knowing about the Great Curse. Under the section on how they deal with other Exalts, there's a bit about Lunars subjecting Solars to stress so that they'll limit break, allowing the Lunar to see what drives them.


Lunars would probably be most likely to notice the curse, since it affects them whenever they first get hit by the light of the Full Moon; it's probable, however, that thhey have accepted it as being part and parcel of the whole Exaltation process. Instead of trying to cure it, they just accept it. That's why they don't trust Sidereals, and why they reject civilisation; because they believe that they themselves are too bestial and wild to be part of it (and they're right), and that it's what allows Solars to do the most damage with their Curse.


If the Solars lived as chieftains in a savage, barbarian world, living by merit and strength alone like the Lunars want rather than being priest-kings of a structured civilisation, they'd probably do less damage. Granted, a lot of that's because they'd be too busy fighting the Fae and each other to risk messing up, but the point still stands.

 

[lowguppy]

It was my supposition that the great curse could be lifted by somehow contacting the primordials and convincing them to lift it, that or getting the Yozi to, if they even know how. There's also a chance that the Wyld's ability to unmake creation could somehow unmake the curse. That's about it.

 

[Samiel]

The two in-canon characters to know about the curse within creation are whats-his-face the god of Exaltation, and the Maiden of Secrets. Nara-O is the god of secrets, but I'd say even he doesn't know them all: the maiden has a private reserve.


Another person to know about the curse, and the only in-canon character to have a cure, is Autocthon. There's even a page on how he'd fix it, but I think he replaces it with clarity so that WW still has a flaw to mess with you. However one of the benefits suggested for saving him is that he's kill the curse, if I recall.


So a primordial for a primordial curse? Alternatively, one could use solar sorcery. Essentially, sorcery is a hack built into creation and given to the exalted by the yozi to mess with things, and could achieve power comparable to Primordialness when perfomed in groups, I should think. Granted, not many spells written, and none of the canon solar spells, are performed by a group of like sorcerors, but I imagine a combined solar spell by perhaps five or more solars could cure one exalted of the curse. Of course, it'd have to be made deliberately for that purpose, which requires knowledge of the curse... perhaps the god of exaltation is working on it, just looking for someone to entrust the secret to?

 

[Persell]

it suggests  several things in the Siderals book.


one is yes, as it says "FOrce the Yozi's" another is "contact gaia" (I'd make them go through a LOT just to meet her personally, and have to do a lot more, even then to get her aid in such a massive fashion.


I have to agree it should NOT be something the PCs can do directly... not some potion, or spell.


now a question.


if the curse was cured wholsesale, throughout creation.... would abysslas all turn back into solars? its hinted that the curse is part of what controls them.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Strangely, there are references to the Lunars knowing about the Great Curse. Under the section on how they deal with other Exalts, there's a bit about Lunars subjecting Solars to stress so that they'll limit break, allowing the Lunar to see what drives them.
Lunars would probably be most likely to notice the curse, since it affects them whenever they first get hit by the light of the Full Moon; it's probable, however, that thhey have accepted it as being part and parcel of the whole Exaltation process. Instead of trying to cure it, they just accept it. That's why they don't trust Sidereals, and why they reject civilisation; because they believe that they themselves are too bestial and wild to be part of it (and they're right), and that it's what allows Solars to do the most damage with their Curse.


If the Solars lived as chieftains in a savage, barbarian world, living by merit and strength alone like the Lunars want rather than being priest-kings of a structured civilisation, they'd probably do less damage. Granted, a lot of that's because they'd be too busy fighting the Fae and each other to risk messing up, but the point still stands.

I'll give you this point in a way. I don't buy it completely, because I don't think WW, even in their plot breaking wisdom would go against that. TWO people in Heaven alone know of the Curse, Jupiter and Lytek. That be it. I think the Lunar bit is more of the animalistic piece of them. Just testing their opponents or allies, see how long it takes them to snap.


Cause, ho snap! Barbarians in old days used to do that too.


-CW, for the Lunars can't solve everything and know all foundations

 

[Jukashi]

TWO people in Heaven alone know of the Curse' date=' Jupiter and Lytek. That be it.[/quote']
But there aren't any Lunars in Heaven.

 

[Jack1]

But there aren't any Lunars in Heaven.

Zing!

 

[Samiel]

if the curse was cured wholsesale' date=' throughout creation.... would abysslas all turn back into solars? its hinted that the curse is part of what controls them.[/quote']
In short, no. Although you might argue, maybe, perhaps, that their Resonance would disappear if the great curse were to be cured totally. Only their Resonance track is related to the Great Curse, the rest is all impure Solar, baby.

 

[Solfi]

That was the whole point, Solfi - that there isn't a cure for the Great Curse and any quest for it would be futile.  The Great Curse would be as intrinsic in Creation as life as death is.  It's part of nature and the absence of the Great Curse is actually an aberration, not a fix.  But that's just my opinion of it.

Well, since it's my game and I'll do whatever I damn well please, that is hardly a constructive comment. That aside, there are more than a few references for possible cures spread throughout WW:s books.

For the most powerful one they can muster, it's right there in the BWB sorcery section.

... that isn't a death curse though. It *does* diminish the Sorcerer, and it can only be cast once in a Sorcerer's lifetime. But still. Not a deathcurse.

 

[Sherwood]

In the Autochronian book, one of the sidebars mentions that the Big Guy knows how to 'cleanse' the Abyssal taint and make you a Solar again, can split the three casts for the Lunars back into five, and could cure the Great Curse.


But why would he want to?  Lets assume that you run the Locust War and the Machine God is fully reawakened.  He has slept for how long?  Now he's up and stretching out the kinks and he sees all these upstart Solars running around, and he remembers the shit the first age Solars put him in.  Having to place a geas on his favored children (the mountan folk) to never leave, snapping their fingers at him like he is their bitch.  I would think it would take one hell of a good reason for him to turn the other cheek and undo the effects.


If a Solar was directly involved in helping restore him, than that one Solar could ask for a boon of some sort.  Even if the Solar in question knew about the curse, and if he did ask, granting one circle of Exalts some cool toys as a way of saying 'thank you' is not the same as undoing a curse that has affected every Exalt from the day it was cast.

 

[Samiel]

On the other hand, he knows that their behaviour was a result of the Curse, and Autocthon is nothing if not efficient and pragmatic. He probably isn't the kind of Primordial to hold a grudge if he feels he can fix something broken and make his lot better thereby.


Thus, although the books suggest that he'd only cure them if they proved their worth, I see him considering it anyway, while they're weak. He probably didn't cure them "back in the day" because they were too powerful by the time he knew about it, or by the time the curse was laid: they'd have destroyed him if he tried to mess with them.


However now they're weak and pattering around with essence 3/4, and easy prey to his fixing ways. Remember, they're his children too, albiet adopted to the Incarna.


While he's at it, he might free the mountain folk and unleash them upon the surface, leading to a nascent new order much like the old first age with the Mountain Folk alongside the Celestials upon creation. Although the Mountain Folk might bear a grudge...


And thus, the awakening of the machine-god and the curing of the great-curse needn't be the end of a game! The Shadowlands might be gone (Thanks Autocthon!), the Wyld may be easier to contain (Thanks again, big guy!) and the Realm mightn't be much against hordes of Mountain Folk looking to take back the surface, but there are new challenges: trying to sort out the Darkbrood, now uninhibited, and the Mountain Folk who will likely take it in mind to conquer the Blessed Ilse at least...

 

[Persell]

you asked "then what"


I thought i'd offer some suggestions.


assuming it didnt involve an otherwise worldshaking event.


the realms politics would become a little more stable... house cynis is particular might become somewhat more likeable.


(though... a lot of thats CULTURE now...)


I dont think the dragon blooded and solars will find a truce between each other...


I think the siderals, curse free will be able to talk more and more easily...


and of course if they had LEARNED of the curse.


the bronze would immediatly upon curing it turn over to the golds all "pertintent information" on what would be required to obliterate every immaculate shrine, and make people lose their faith in the order.

 

[Samiel]

Why do you think so? Even without the curse, pride is a powerful force against co-operation, especially with extremely old and powerful bastards who've killed their own brethren for their beliefs. After all that bloodshed and sacrifice, it wouldn't be realistic for them to just shrug and concede defeat. If anything, human nature says they'd point at the gold and accuse them of being the true victims of the curse, ignoring their own actions due to human blindness. Never mind the curse, they're people, and people are stupid.


House cynis' excesses aren't motivated by the curse either: given the different natures of the individual curses of the Aspects/virtues, house cynis can't just be a house of people sharing a hedonistic curse. They're all just hedonists.


I instead see the realm being wiped away by either an angry god fed up of them exploiting his favourite children, his children themselves, or both. They're not in a position to put up a good resistance against an attack from beneath all of their cities by enlightened Mountain Folk, once he removes the Geas.


After they jump out, the Darkbrood may follow, seeing their chance to catch the rear of their ancient foes as they try their hands at conquest.


And the Solars and other celestials through all this likely continue as they had for a time, while the human fallout of the Great Curse heals itself and they reassert themselves.

 

[Thorn Darkblade]

An interesting thought about the Great Curse.


What if it's still in its infant stages? I mean, the triggers seem rather specific now, not something constant like the decadent Solars of old were described as having...I personally believe it will get worse with age, and not a simple thing such as Greater Curse, with less limit break boxes. For anyone who's a fan of oWoD's most hated red headed stepchild, Hunter, I'm thinking of something along the lines of the derangements, where the Solars will get more and more Virtue Flaws, on top of Greater Curse, especially if they have multiple high virtues