Confused by combos.

[Caelun_Niveus]

I was flipping through the charms section MoEP: Abyssals and got an idea for a combo. I have never tried to make one before, so I flipped to the page in the main book detailing the rules for making one. And when reading on what types of charms and how many of each type I could include, I became confused by the wording. I.E. "Supplemental charms must be the same ability as the simple charm, or the extra action charm, or be explicitly stated as combo-able..."


I made a combo to the best of my understanding, but don't know if its "legal." What I have is:


Unfurling Iron Lotus - Crypt Bolt Attack - Frozen Prayer Entombment - Earth Forsaking Stance (may be replaced or removed) - Soul Cleaving Wound


Is this usable? Have I misunderstood something, or if it's fine should I be aware of anything on future combos? (No clue exactly what it means by if a charm is explicitly stated as combo-able)

 

[Plague of Hats]

Unfurling Iron Lotus - Crypt Bolt Attack - Frozen Prayer Entombment - Earth Forsaking Stance (may be replaced or removed) - Soul Cleaving Wound
Is this usable?

Nope. This breaks down for two reasons: Combining Thrown and Melee and combining a Combo-Basic Charm (Frozen Prayer Entombment) with non-Reflexive Charms.
Here's the facts of life about building a Combo:


Combo-Basic Charms can't be in Combos with other Charms unless those other Charms are Reflexive. Combo-OK Charms can be in any otherwise valid Combo.


If you Combo a Simple and Extra Action Charm, the two must be capable of performing the same action, and you must use all of the flurried actions from the Extra Action Charm to perform the same Simple Charm over and over. So, for instance, you can't combine Frozen Prayer Entombment with Unfurling Iron Lotus because Unfurling Iron Lotus produces Melee attacks and Frozen Prayer Entombment produces a Thrown attack (the Combo is also not valid because Frozen Prayer Entombment is Combo-Basic, so you can't combine it with Five Birds, One Stone either).


If you Combo a Supplemental Charm with a Simple and/or Extra Action Charm, the Supplemental Charm must be capable of enhancing the action produced by the Simple/Extra Action Charm. Unless a Supplemental Charm states otherwise within its text, it can only enhance actions based on the trait from which the Charm comes (Melee Supplemental Charms can only enhanced Melee actions; Dexterity Supplemental Charms can only enhance Dexterity-based actions, etc.). So, for example, Wicked Darts of Suffering can only enhance Thrown actions, but Corpus-Rending Blow/Spirit-Cutting Attack can enhance any attack, even though it's in Occult.


You can Combo Reflexive Charms with any other Charms (subject to Combo keywords, of course), and you can always use them whenever they would be appropriate, or you can even choose not to use them. Soul-Cleaving Wound only enhances Melee damage, so you can't combine it with Frozen Prayer Entombment, but when you combine it with a Melee attack even if you do damage you can choose not to activate it. You can combine Earth-Forsaking Stance with any Combo-OK or Combo-Basic Charm, because it doesn't rely on enhancing a specific action and is Reflexive and Combo-OK.


There is incoming errata that will likely significantly change how one builds combat Combos for Abyssals and Solars. For instance, I would not be surprised to see the Martial or Martial-ready keyword on Soul-Cleaving Wound.


There is even more fundamental errata planned for overhauling the Combo system itself, but this may not be for a while yet.

 

[Caelun_Niveus]

Thank you. I think I understand. Let me try again...


Ebon Lightning Prana - Time Scything Technique - Soul Cleaving Wound


The full combo would cost be 13m 4wp... unless I have to pay the cost of either charm once for every attack made by Time Scything Technique...

 

[Plague of Hats]

unless I have to pay the cost of either charm once for every attack made by Time Scything Technique...

You have to pay the full cost of any Charm every time you activate it, which includes every action in a flurry they produce or enhance. Extra Action Charms are not paid for on each separate instant of an action they produce because you pay their cost up front and then the flurry happens because of that (usually).

 

[Caelun_Niveus]

So, in the newer combo, I would have to pay 3m and 1wp (cost of Ebon Lightning) for every extra attack granted by Time-Scything Technique?

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Yes indeed. Why you need to be careful about costs...and particularly about willpower costs, when designing combos. The stronger the combo, particularly an Extra Action combo, the more essence and willpower you expend. Consider that there is a good chance when facing another Exalted level foe you will find their response to your combo being 'Perfect, Perfect, did I mention Perfect'. If your combo's cost per attack is significantly more expensive than a Perfect Defense, you're setting yourself up to lose the mote and willpower attrition war. Against Fair Folk, Demons and Gods, and against most, but not all Dragonblooded, Perfect defenses aren't so common, or those present are quite expensive. But Celestial Exalt to Celestial Exalt, or against Dragonblooded focused for engaging such foes, you will likely need to be more careful of your costs.


Of course, the combo you suggest is actually quite solid against any foe who cannot ignore surprise attacks. This is good. But...remember that there's a good chance if you face someone with a combo or charm combination that ignores Unexpected attacks, and a Perfect defense, you will be the one at a disadvantage after using it. Powerful offensive combos often are best used as a final blow, after you're fairly certain your opponent is tapped out...but it's likely you'll be pushing your own limits, too...unless you conserve resources or regain resources reliably throughout the fight.

 

[Plague of Hats]

Of course' date=' the combo you suggest is actually quite solid against any foe who cannot ignore surprise attacks.[/quote']It's also good to keep in mind that Ebon Lightning Prana is poorly designed as all hell. Choo-choo, here comes the errata train!

 

[Kyeudo]

Thank you. I think I understand. Let me try again...
Ebon Lightning Prana - Time Scything Technique - Soul Cleaving Wound


The full combo would cost be 13m 4wp... unless I have to pay the cost of either charm once for every attack made by Time Scything Technique...

You need a Perfect Defense in there, or you will die before your next action.

 

[Caelun_Niveus]

You need a Perfect Defense in there, or you will die before your next action.

The character I was thinking of this for has Dex 4. That gives me 5 attacks from Time-Scything, paying the cost of Ebon Lightning each strike (and hopefully not Soul Cleaving Wound too) and doing one level of Essence per hit (essence 0 = dead). A five strike attack from this combo would then cost 25m 8wp, so even if I had the resources to add a Perfect, I wouldn't use this move unless I was **** sure of a kill.


......I need to work on cost management for my next combo.

 

[Kyeudo]

A perfect defense won't increase the mote cost of the Combo if you don't need it (just the XP cost), but if you use that Combo and even one opponent survives it, you are defenseless. Defenseless people are dead very fast in Exalted. Tack on your perfect defense as a "just in case" and you won't regret it.

 

[Caelun_Niveus]

I know, just saying that in that combo (might as well name it... "Hundred Entropic Lacerations"?) I probably wouldn't have any juice to use a perfect even if it was available, having only 2wp left at most, and would be screwed in general if I miss.

 

[Kyeudo]

It's 3 motes. If you can scrape up the cost of the other Charms, you can stunt back enough motes for the perfect when it comes time to defend against the counterattack.

 

[Caelun_Niveus]

Alright.... I'll add Flickering Wisp Technique with the Valor flaw (I'd be sapped for willpower and need to fall back anyway)

 

[Dracogryff]

You need a Perfect Defense in there' date=' or you will die before your next action.[/quote']
The character I was thinking of this for has Dex 4. That gives me 5 attacks from Time-Scything, paying the cost of Ebon Lightning each strike (and hopefully not Soul Cleaving Wound too) and doing one level of Essence per hit (essence 0 = dead). A five strike attack from this combo would then cost 25m 8wp, so even if I had the resources to add a Perfect, I wouldn't use this move unless I was **** sure of a kill.


......I need to work on cost management for my next combo.

You would have to activate Soul Cleaving Wound for each attack, if you wanted it to drop the essence point on that attack. It being a reflexive, you don't HAVE to, at least, but the most you could drop essence with this attack (if you had a 10 willpower) is by 3 points with three of the five attacks, and would cost you 35 motes to boot, and nothing stops them from 3 or 4 mote perfecting every one of your attacks in this.


Granted, if the person goes 'Perfect, Perfect, Perfect' against this you can at least not activate Soul Cleaving Wound on the attacks, I don't think, but still. That's 7 willpower you just lost and 20 motes, to their 15-20 mote cost loss, give or take, when going against other celestial sorts.


At least, this would be my understanding.

 

[Caelun_Niveus]

You would have to activate Soul Cleaving Wound for each attack, if you wanted it to drop the essence point on that attack.

Time to think of something different that's plausible to use...

 

[Dracojounin7]

I have a question of my own... would 2 Supplemental Combo-OK charms and a Combo-OK Reflexive charm be compatible? I'm not quite sure...


The combo I have in mind is from Jade Mountain style...


Boulder-Crushing Grasp+Sliding Glacier Grip+Falling Rockslide Onslaught


Sort of a Clinch combo to devastate anyone I can catch.

 

[Captain Hesperus]

I have a question of my own... would 2 Supplemental Combo-OK charms and a Combo-OK Reflexive charm be compatible? I'm not quite sure...
The combo I have in mind is from Jade Mountain style...


Boulder-Crushing Grasp+Sliding Glacier Grip+Falling Rockslide Onslaught


Sort of a Clinch combo to devastate anyone I can catch.

This is perfectly legitimate, since the Supplementals B-CG amd FRO both supplement a clinch attack or roll to maintain and SGG stops an opponent breaking out of the clinch if the MAist fails to maintain the clinch.


Nasty.


Captain Hesperus

 

[Daifuku]

I have a question for you guys that I ran into while making combos for my Dragon Blooded. The combo goes as such:


Cleansing Flame Strike>Dragon-Graced Weapon>Rotten Leaf Arrested>Elemental Bolt Attack


Since Dire lances can be used as form weapons for Golden Janissary, I was wondering if Melee charms can apply to the lance when using Golden Janissary.

 

[Captain Hesperus]

Cleansing Flame Strike>Dragon-Graced Weapon>Rotten Leaf Arrested>Elemental Bolt Attack
Since Dire lances can be used as form weapons for Golden Janissary, I was wondering if Melee charms can apply to the lance when using Golden Janissary.

This one is more complicated. There is a Simple (EBA) from Lore, two Martial Arts Supplementals (CFS and RLA) and a Melee Supplemental (D-GW). So CFS, RLA and D-GW must all supplement EBA. The problem arises in my mind that the attack roll is not Martial Arts or Melee, but Athletics or Archery. I'm going to have to say, 'I don't know' about this one and let greater minds figure it.


Captain Hesperus

 

[Daifuku]

This one is more complicated. There is a Simple (EBA) from Lore, two Martial Arts Supplementals (CFS and RLA) and a Melee Supplemental (D-GW). So CFS, RLA and D-GW must all supplement EBA. The problem arises in my mind that the attack roll is not Martial Arts or Melee, but Athletics or Archery. I'm going to have to say, 'I don't know' about this one and let greater minds figure it.
Captain Hesperus

Perhaps it would clarify things if I add that the whole combo is set off by hitting someone with a lance. So I suppose the combo would actually this:


MA attack with Lance>Cleansing Flame Strike>Dragon-Graced Weapon>Rotten Leaf Arrested>Elemental Bolt Attack


As I said, the Form weapon for Golden Janissary is Lances and Spears. So, this would technically fall under unarmed combat.

 

[Captain Hesperus]

This one is more complicated. There is a Simple (EBA) from Lore, two Martial Arts Supplementals (CFS and RLA) and a Melee Supplemental (D-GW). So CFS, RLA and D-GW must all supplement EBA. The problem arises in my mind that the attack roll is not Martial Arts or Melee, but Athletics or Archery. I'm going to have to say, 'I don't know' about this one and let greater minds figure it.
Captain Hesperus

Perhaps it would clarify things if I add that the whole combo is set off by hitting someone with a lance. So I suppose the combo would actually this:


MA attack with Lance>Cleansing Flame Strike>Dragon-Graced Weapon>Rotten Leaf Arrested>Elemental Bolt Attack


As I said, the Form weapon for Golden Janissary is Lances and Spears. So, this would technically fall under unarmed combat.

Unfortunately the Combo rules state that Supplemental Charms must supplement an action being performed. A Simple Charm is considered the PC's action for the tick. Elemental Bolt Attack is the action and thus the three Supplemental Charms must supplement it. This is as written on page 245 of the main rule book. This said, I don't think it is a legitimate Combo.


Captain Hesperus

 

[Caelun_Niveus]

Asking a bit for him... what if he took out EBA and used the rest of the combo to supplement an otherwise regular attack made with his lance?

 

[Captain Hesperus]

Removing the Simple Charm would make the Combo legitimate, as I read it. The remaining Charms all enhance an attack with a weapon, be it a Melee or MA weapon. Golden Janissary Style allows the use of spears or Direlances as form weapons so they can be used interchangably. Of note, page 154 of Scroll of the Monk says that if a Combo uses Charms from MA and Melee, then you can use the higher of the two abilities for determining dice pools.


Captain Hesperus