Combo timing question

[Tikor]

A hypothetical came up talking with my ST today:


An Exalt attacks or joins battle and during the ticks till the next DV refresh an attack targets the Exalt. The Exalt has his Charm slot open. Can the Exalt activate a Combo with a simple Charm in it on this Reflexive action?


Further, if yes, does the Exalt have to pay the motes for the Simple Charm?


If yes, what do those motes do?


What are your thoughts, forum?


I'm thinking no, but the Core is sufficently vague for me to ask. See the Combo timing rules at the end of the Charms chapter in Core.

 

[cyl]

Well I'd say the combo is usable but with a restriction on your charm slot for your next action because what makes it a combo is the Simple Charm, the other charms are just satelites orbiting around the "main" charm.


A few examples:


- extra action & simple: the simple charm must be used on every action


- simple & supplemental: the supplemental charm must be used with the simple charm action


- extra action & supplemental: the supplemental charm must be used on every action


And the reflexive are always free to use... So there is a sort of hierarchy here with extra action on top of it and simple in second.


Extra action and simple charms are never "optional" in their use, they are exclusive.


So if you have a combo with 1 simple charm and let's say 2 reflexives you want to use... you can unleash the combo before your DV refresh (provided that you have your charm slot open) and on your next action, you'd have no choice of using your simple charm.


Let's take a more detailed example: Bob & mike.


T0: bob attacks (speed 5) mike and misses, he uses no charm


T2: mike attacks bob and hits


bob uses his terrible combo Shine on you crazy diamond (adamant skin technique + unbreakable warrior's mastery + iron kettle body) and uses AST to avoid taking damage.


T5: bob has to use IKB because of his combo.


I.e. using a combo with a simple / extra action and several reflexive charms before your next action allows you to use the reflexives freely but consumes your charm slot and your action for your next action.


That's how I'd rule it... even if it actually takes 2 charm slots (T0 to T5, and T5 to T10) instead of only 1, but the good part is you can use the reflexives from T2 to T10... which is rather cool. 8)


The solution to this being careful design and appropriate use of combos.

 

[Skycroft]

Hmmm.. I'm not sure I agree. One of the main benefits of combos is the ability to use reflexives with a simple charm, and with cyl's ruling you get this benefit for two actions (5 ticks) for the price of only one willpower instead of two. I would rule that until your first/next action you can only use purely reflexive combos (or perhaps reflexive + supplemental combos, the point is that it should not have a simple or extra action charm). Combos with a simple (and/or extra action) charm can only be activated on your action tick.

 

[cyl]

Well I am balancing "having your next action taken by the use of a simple charm" (which believe it or not can suck really bad) with "being able to reflexive charms in a single sine qua non configuration" (because if you already used your charm slot... well then you're screwed).

 

[Virjigorm]

On pg. 245 of the core book, it says "The reflexive charm can be used outside the character's dice actions, as usual."


This means you can activate the combo and use it's reflexive charms in a tick prior to your action. It goes on to explain that you must activate the combo at this time if you wish to use it for the defense and you cannot wait until your action to declare the combo. This restricts your charm use on the next action to those charms which are a part of the combo and will activate as such on your action. If any of the charms in the combo are simple, and therefor require an action to activate, your action is consumed by the combo, or you are restricted to taking actions within the confines of the combo. For example, if you have an extra action charm in the combo, when it comes to your action, you must use that charm and it's granted action(s) within the rules of the combo. This is not a penalty imposed for activating the combo reflexively, it is a mechanical consequence of the fact that the combo is already activated and the charms have to take effect as designed.


Basically, as written, the rules give you an option to choose your next action a little early and commit to it, but in return you get to use the reflexive parts of the combo early.


An easy way to get around any confusion and the disadvantages of these combo rules would be to create an all-reflexive defense combo to use when you don't know how the next few ticks will play out and you need to keep your options open.

 

[wordman]

Timing in Exalted has always been a little screwed up.


This is how how run it (and, for all I know, this may be how it is actually supposed to work). (Oh, this also uses my terminology, not the book's):


The "charm slot", as you call it, refreshes at the start of the character's moment.


In a practical sense, this ruling means that the duration from the start of the Join Battle roll to the character's first moment is a bit of a special case. During this time, every character may use a charm slot, but may not use Simple or Extra Action charms within that slot, including combos that contain them. Also, they do not gain access to the slot if they are surprised (except to use charms that work when surprised).


Probably not by the book, but it makes things easier to deal with.

 

[IanPrice]

Around here, we've always run with "join battle is its own action, and you can't use a Simple-containing combo on it just like you couldn't on any other action where you did something else."


You could use a Combo containing Striking Serpent's Speed, however, since that lets you flurry multiple different kinds of actions.

 

[wordman]

Ian's way, as usual, is a better way of phrasing it than mine. A bit more flexible as well, though functionally pretty close.

 

[Brickwall]

Short answer: no


Long Answer: no, you may only perform Reflexive actions when it's not your tick, and any combo with a Simple Charm requires you to use that Charm when you use the Combo. You are required to do something you can't do, and therefore, cannot do it. Houserule it differently if you like, but RAW, you totally can't ever do what you describe, no matter what the Simple Charm, or no matter what Extra Action Charm you have. You would need something that changed the Simple Charm into a Reflexive action, and I have not seen that sort of thing (though it could conceivably be created).

 

[Virjigorm]

no, you may only perform Reflexive actions when it's not your tick, and any combo with a Simple Charm requires you to use that Charm when you use the Combo. You are required to do something you can't do, and therefore, cannot do it. Houserule it differently if you like, but RAW, you totally can't ever do what you describe, no matter what the Simple Charm, or no matter what Extra Action Charm you have. You would need something that changed the Simple Charm into a Reflexive action, and I have not seen that sort of thing (though it could conceivably be created).

You can always use reflexives on your action tick.


I think you're confusing the "tick", and "action" concepts here. Check out pg 245 in the Core. First, all other charms that can be effected by the reflexive charm are stated as "may benefit" rather than "must".


It also says...


"The reflexive charm can be used outside the character's dice actions, as usual. However the player must state that the Exalt is using a combo, and which combo, and must pay the price for the combo, as soon as the player uses the first charm for that combo in a given action-he cannot use a reflexive charm and then later in the action declare that he actually wishes to use a combo containing that charm."


This does not state that all charms must be used on the same tick, it actually says the opposite. The only catch is that the rest of the combo is still paid for and therefor the charms activate when your action tick comes around (this part is my interpretation). It leaves you with a choice of using a defensive charm as a stand-alone, or committing to using your combo before it comes to your action. The only time the combo would be helpful is if you are using more than one reflexive from the combo on the defensive action. Otherwise, you could just use the reflexive to defend and then activate the combo on your action tick. Reflexive charms in a combo can also be used after the tick on which the combo is activated, by the rules, which is the primary point of putting defensive charms into a combo with offensive ones. It keeps your defensive charms available until your dv refreshes again.

 

[IanPrice]

If you cannot legally activate the "required" charms for a combo - simple, supplemental, and extra action types - then you cannot legally activate the combo. Regardless of the rules for activating reflexive type charms. Is that a clearer way of putting it?

 

[Virjigorm]

If you cannot legally activate the "required" charms for a combo - simple, supplemental, and extra action types - then you cannot legally activate the combo. Regardless of the rules for activating reflexive type charms. Is that a clearer way of putting it?

You were perfectly clear in your post, but what you are saying has nothing to do with the way the rules are written, or the spirit of the more vague rules. Read them to see what they actually say. If there is a clarification or errata that I have missed, please give a page number.

 

[IanPrice]

As you yourself posted, the rules for reflexive charms activating with a combo outside your action state in themselves that the price of the combo must be paid. The spirit you refer to seems - to me - to be stating that all other rules for combos must be followed, ie that the ability to use a reflexive charm out-of-turn does not give you the ability to step into the motions of your Infinite Death Rain Kata (presumably containing Iron Whirlwind Attack and Hungry Tiger Technique as well as some defensive charms) when you haven't yet recovered your wind from lifting the portcullis. Nor does it negate the fact that the essence flows your character has mastered to combine the essence of Dipping Swallow Defense, his Melee excellency of choice, and Solar Counterattack are intrinsically tied to the IDRK I just mentioned after making it up as an example.


If your character had the foresight to create a Death Sensing Parry Attitude combo containing only reflexive charms (perhaps Surprise Anticipation Method, in addition to the three previously mentioned), then that combo could be activated with impunity any time another combo had not already been declared for that action.


The question here is not, in fact, the reflexive charm(s) in the Combo. Their validity is overwritten if the Combo has other charms which are illegal to use at the moment you would like to use the Combo - such as Simple and Extra Action charms. As a GM, I might be lenient if only Supplemental charms would make it illegal, particularly if the Combo had a reflexive charm which could benefit from them, and the player made a good stunt of it. Then I might let the Supplemental-containing Combo be used as long as the Supplemental charm was used each time it could be following the Combo's activation, until the character's essence flows reset with his/her DV refresh.


(Selah)


Taking a step back from the way I've run it and seen it run in games I was in, it could also be a valid interpretation of the rules-as-written to allow the Combo to activate, but require the costs to be paid for the simple, supplemental, and extra action charms which would've been used. These charms provide no benefit since they cannot actually take place at this point, but you pay for them because that's the cost of the Combo you activated. It's a bit like activating your super art in a fighting game to dodge your opponent's fireball, even though you won't hit them with the move from where you are right then. Interpreting things this way slightly bends the idea of requiring activation of all the charms in the Combo, because activating Simple and Extra Action charms usually is part and parcel with doing certain things physically, but it's not much of a stretch to favor the rule you quoted over the others (required charms to activate in a Combo [fudged in this case] and the rules for how Simple and Extra Action charms are used [ignored in this case]).


I prefer the stricter interpretation, but could see a choice to run it the other way.