Combo Advice

[Kayn]

Hello forum. I came for the comic, stayed for some advice (lucky me... I get to run second ed tonight for some new roleplayers. Considering I last played Exalted about the time the Players Guide was released in 1st Ed I'm slightly worried about it...)


One part of Exalted I've never jumped too deeply into is Comboing. And because I like tinkering with characters I'll never, ever have the joy to play as, I've been trying to generate an interesting, highly cinematic combat combo just to get the rules in my head. But the timing rules are throwing me slightly.


Here goes then. The combo's 1st Melee Excellency, Peony Blossom Attack, Iron Skin Meditation, Essence Gathering Temper, and Solar Counterattack. Fully available to a starting character and not alltogether too expensive (bar the five bonus points).


As far as I interpret the rules, it goes as thus:


- Step 1: Antagonist attempts to hit my Zenith in the face. They call for an attack


- Step 2: I call for the Combo. No charm has to fire in Step 2 (the Extra Action certainly can't), so the defense is a Parry or a Dodge, with optional 1MX.


- Step 7: Iron Skin Concentration kicks in if I want it to. Against things that'll rip me apart it'd be nice, but otherwise ignoring it so that EGT can turn all those damage dice into Essence would be nice (and if I can intentionally fail the roll, the soak would be gravy).


- Step 8: Essence Gathering Temper kicks in, assuming I want it to. And then I roll the normally ridiculous soak for the character


- Step 9: Solar Counterattack CAN kick in if I want it to.


- Counterattack Step 1: I must declare Peony Blossom Attack. This is the problem - this charm MUST fire if included in the combo, but is dependant on Solar Counterattack if configured like this (a Reflexive, and therefore optional charm). How does this work?. Naturally, 1MX in ascending numbers if I'm whaling on one person and want to abuse the onslaught penalties, or just scattered about if I'm rending apart the four closest people to me.


Now have I missed something totally obvious here, or is my interpretation on the rules correct? I mean, it follows the most important rule of giving me something awesomely fun that fits with the character, and it is indeed a fairly big investment of Essence if the entire thing trips, abiet recovered slightly with Essence Gathering Temper. But is it a legal combo as far as the rules are concerned.


It also occurs to me as I write this that I can trigger the combo as an offensive attack as well, but three of them wouldn't apply if done like that (trimming it down to a Peony Blossom with 1MX's). I'm assuming here that combos function as Charms in the sense that you can activate the same one as many times as you like until your DV refreshes, but doesn't having three inapplicable charms in the same combo make the thing void?


Please tell me how far off the mark I am with this.

 

[Nemal]

One part of Exalted I've never jumped too deeply into is Comboing. And because I like tinkering with characters I'll never, ever have the joy to play as, I've been trying to generate an interesting, highly cinematic combat combo just to get the rules in my head. But the timing rules are throwing me slightly.

It's understandable.


Basically, what the comboing rules do is allow you to fuse a number of Charms into one single huge Charm-like ability. It keeps the timing rules of the Charms therein, as far as they're compatible.

Here goes then. The combo's 1st Melee Excellency, Peony Blossom Attack, Iron Skin Meditation, Essence Gathering Temper, and Solar Counterattack. Fully available to a starting character and not alltogether too expensive (bar the five bonus points).

Nice combo.


Note, though, that Peony Blossom Attack is Simple (it's an Extra Attack Charm, after all). Thus, this Combo's activation times are "Simple".

As far as I interpret the rules, it goes as thus:
- Step 1: Antagonist attempts to hit my Zenith in the face. They call for an attack


- Step 2: I call for the Combo. No charm has to fire in Step 2 (the Extra Action certainly can't), so the defense is a Parry or a Dodge, with optional 1MX.

Step 2's action is invalid.


You cannot invoke this combo reflexively, for it contains a Simple Charm.


You -could- use the Combo on this step if you'd invoked the Combo on your own action, though.


I'll assume that was the case: in your turn, you used your combo, made your extra attacks, etc.

- Step 7: Iron Skin Concentration kicks in if I want it to. Against things that'll rip me apart it'd be nice, but otherwise ignoring it so that EGT can turn all those damage dice into Essence would be nice (and if I can intentionally fail the roll, the soak would be gravy).


- Step 8: Essence Gathering Temper kicks in, assuming I want it to. And then I roll the normally ridiculous soak for the character

Soak is not rolled, but otherwise correct.

- Step 9: Solar Counterattack CAN kick in if I want it to.

Yes.

- Counterattack Step 1: I must declare Peony Blossom Attack. This is the problem - this charm MUST fire if included in the combo, but is dependant on Solar Counterattack if configured like this (a Reflexive, and therefore optional charm). How does this work?. Naturally, 1MX in ascending numbers if I'm whaling on one person and want to abuse the onslaught penalties, or just scattered about if I'm rending apart the four closest people to me.

No.


You cannot use a Simple Charm as part of a reflexive action. You can make the counterattack, but Peony Blossom is not declared as part of an attack, it's declared as the entirety of your action. This is not your action, but your opponent's, so you cannot use PB.

Now have I missed something totally obvious here, or is my interpretation on the rules correct? I mean, it follows the most important rule of giving me something awesomely fun that fits with the character, and it is indeed a fairly big investment of Essence if the entire thing trips, abiet recovered slightly with Essence Gathering Temper. But is it a legal combo as far as the rules are concerned.

You basically missed the timing rules.


As soon as you include a Simple Charm in a combo, the whole Combo cannot be used reflexively anymore. If you did not invoke this Combo in your turn, you cannot use it reflexively during an opponent's attack to take advantage of the ISC+SC thing.

It also occurs to me as I write this that I can trigger the combo as an offensive attack as well, but three of them wouldn't apply if done like that (trimming it down to a Peony Blossom with 1MX's). I'm assuming here that combos function as Charms in the sense that you can activate the same one as many times as you like until your DV refreshes, but doesn't having three inapplicable charms in the same combo make the thing void?
Please tell me how far off the mark I am with this.

That's correct, and this is the only way to use the Combo.


In your turn, you use Peony Blossom. Then, if you get attacked at any point until your DV refreshes, you can use all the other stuff as part of your defense.


The Melee Excellency you can use as part of either attack, defense, or counterattack, of course.

 

[Kayn]

Nice combo.


Note, though, that Peony Blossom Attack is Simple (it's an Extra Attack Charm, after all). Thus, this Combo's activation times are "Simple".

Thanks for the explanation. Clears it up entirely.


I'll just have to settle for the basic four attacks the Reaper Daiklaive gives, rather than trying to get around the flurry penalties. I'm assuming the combo works the way I want it to if I remove Peony Blossom from it, since then it's entirely Reflexive?

 

[Nemal]

Thanks for the explanation. Clears it up entirely.
I'll just have to settle for the basic four attacks the Reaper Daiklaive gives, rather than trying to get around the flurry penalties. I'm assuming the combo works the way I want it to if I remove Peony Blossom from it, since then it's entirely Reflexive?

Yup!


Except for the part of making multiple attacks with a single Counterattack Charm... or the increase dice pool per attack that PB will grant you.


If I may make a suggestion? You might want to toss Hungry Tiger in there, too. It's really good for 1m per use.

 

[wordman]

There is an odd corollary to all this, by the way: since your "one activation per action" refreshes at the start of your action (what I would call your moment), there is a period of time between Join Battle and your first action when you, essentially, get a "free" charm refresh. It's true that you can't use Simple's during this period, but you could activate a reflexive combo in that period. For this reason, Combos without Simples are generally a lot more flexible.


As a result, the particular combo you mention would actually get better if you removed Peony Blossom Attack from it.

 

[Kayn]

Except for the part of making multiple attacks with a single Counterattack Charm... or the increase dice pool per attack that PB will grant you.

Yeah. Realised re-reading the rules that there's a clear cut difference between an action and an attack. So no Counterflurries. Darn inconvenient rules stopping me having a character who's sole purpose is to stand there and lash out inproportionately to other people's attacks

As a result, the particular combo you mention would actually get better if you removed Peony Blossom Attack from it.

I agree. Time for some charm changes. Hungry Tiger and a level of Ox Body or Body Mending Med never goes amiss...


Thanks for the clearing up of my horrifically bad understanding of the rules everyone.

 

[Kayn]

I'm redesigning the combo from hell again for my poor starting Zenith who I'll never get to play.


It currently stands as a (admitedly ridiculous, but nonetheless very versitile) First Melee Excellency, Hungry Tiger Technique, Dipping Shallow Defense, Essence Gathering Exercise, Iron Skin Concentration & Solar Counterattack.


All barring Hungry Tiger [which legally supplements a Solar Counterattack or a regular attack], everything's a Reflexive Charm, so it works as the versitile thing I want it to be - at worst case a mad power flurry followed by nasty counterattacks which hopefully leaves my Zenith no worse of than what they start off, and the enemy feeling much worse.


The problem I have now is how often I have to pay 1WP for activating this combo... I have no idea when it is. I'm assuming I can lash out and declare I'm activating this combo as my action for the round, using HTT and 1MX in a mad flurry of death and destruction, with the combo sitting over my character's head to be activated as often as I can afford the motes for until my DV refreshes - we covered this last time. I'm just trying to work out when I pay the 1WP - is it every time I 'use' the combo [so hitting someone, and then counterattacking twice would be a big fat 3WP expenditure], or every time I activate it [so I use it as my action or as my first defense, pay the 1WP, and comfortably maintain it for eight DV refreshes in a row before I burn out all my Willpower]?


Why can't I just build simple combos?

 

[Dracogryff]

You pay willpower once to activate a combo. You can't later choose to spend a willpower to make use of a combo after using Charms (even if they're in the combo), but you pay it once when you declare you're activating the combo, not on each Charm use in the combo. So, it would be 1 WP per activation of the combo (keeping it usable for 8 refreshes as you've said, so I presume you have an 8 WP barring recovery from stunting), not the 3WP scenario.

 

[Kayn]

You can't later choose to spend a willpower to make use of a combo after using Charms (even if they're in the combo)...

Yeah, I know how this bit works. I say I'm using my combo when I use the first charm, and pay the WP there and then, and can then use any of the other charms in the combo as I see fit.

So, it would be 1 WP per activation of the combo (keeping it usable for 8 refreshes as you've said, so I presume you have an 8 WP barring recovery from stunting), not the 3WP scenario.

Keen.


... and yes. starting with 8WP.

 

[Jeppe]

As a result, the particular combo you mention would actually get better if you removed Peony Blossom Attack from it.

I disagree with you on this point. The two combos (with and without Peony Blossom Attack) fulfill two different roles.


Without Peony Blossom Attack, the character may attack normally and only activate the combo when pressed and in need of strong defenses.


With Peony Blossom Attack, the character uses strong offence, as well as having strong defenses at the ready, should they be required.


I agree that the former combo without Peony Blossom Attack is at an advantage in the beginning of combat, before the character gets to act, but after that, it's really whether or not the character prefers both strong offence and defense, or just the better defense - it's not about one combo being better than the other.