Combat cinematics

[cyl]

I have a question, now that I'm studying 2e combat and all for storytelling...


How do you do to implement cinematics with the tick system ?


I mean exalted is supposed to be anime like right ?


In most anime there are periods of time, when characters face each other, then fight, then face each other and talk, then fight again etc etc, lots of variations in the rythm of a combat, giving a dramatic and heroic feeling to the fight.


With the tick system... I find it hard to implement those cinematics, it's too regulated and metronomical to use those "cinematics" effectively... How do you do ?

 

[Flagg]

The same way you do it with the turn system -- you ignore strict rules adherence for dramatic effect.

 

[Jakk Bey]

Flagg: The same way you do it with the turn system -- you ignore strict rules adherence for dramatic effect.


This.

 

[Brickwall]

Speaking is a Speed 0 action, unless you make a roll or use a Simple Charm with it, then it's Speed 5. Remember, ticks are USUALLY seconds, but they do not need to be. Rather, the conversation in between ticks could last minutes, but once it's done, the action begins taking over with the next person to act.


Also, it tends to be the narration. You can narrate a lot in very few ticks, and you can narrate very little in a long span of ticks. That changes the pacing a lot.


Basically, it's not as bad as you think. Try playing a combat and have it ever be rhythmic. You can't. Not ever. No matter how hard you try to get those stupid players to behave, they just keep changing things and doing weird stuff that derails everything and makes the flow all wonky and AAAAAAAAGH!


Umm...yeah, uhh...it's not that bad. It works out, trust me. <.<

 

[Sherwood]

In Champions, its called a 'Zero Phase Action Soliloquy'. It is so much a part of the superhero genre of the over-the-top speaches that it takes no time away from combat. For Exalted, unless the coversation drags out, use the same effect. You are leaping around like a monkey on crack with an electrode up its ass, but you can still take time to taunt your enemy, or use their psycological weaknesses against them.

 

[skafte]

If you want to circle around your opponent before attacking, then you can use a Guard, or better yet, an Aim action. With them both you can abort at any time, like when your opponent attacks (something you also will need in coordinated attacks, and attacks against opponents where you can only attack when they are within reach, like flying opponents), so scenematic it will look like you are both attacking at the same time every time.

 

[Jakk Bey]

Unless the player or the NPC is actively trying to wrangle some time to do something in the space to make a speech, then you just call it a brief pause in the action--sort of like hitting "pause" or a cut scene in an RPG.


The one frustrating thing about KotOR and KotOR II was the cut scene penalty--you had to reactivate all your shit when there was speechifying in the middle of a fight. As an ST you don't have to follow that model. Think of the many HK action flicks, wuxia films, and anime. You've got hyper fast, hyper skilled folks who take a moment to speechify in the middle of a fight, and then it goes on just as if nothing happened. Unless there's some serious Social Combat happening, I'd call it just a pause in the action without penalty--unless of course, one or the other being talked at doesn't go for the conversational gambit.


I see your Red Flaming Tiger has im-urrrrk-


*wipes off claws*


--He always did talk too much.--

 

[Nightmare of Fallen Kings]

It kind of depends for me. I've had points where combat has actually ceased as the characters briefly parlayed to have a debate with their enemy before open hostilities resumed, and I had everyone roll a new join combat. Most of the time however I simply allow the characters to talk as combat goes on, with the simple rule that in any given tick they can only make brief statements, a sentence or two max. My players seem to grasp this pretty well and I've never had them abuse it. Most of the time in combat it's just reserved for things like "Look out behind you!" , but I have had it used in other ways. One of my players in a campaign a couple years ago had a character with a very Spiderman-esque habit of taunting and provoking his enemies throughout combat, and it was great it added to the scene for everyone and the other players began to add more flare to their characters in combat over time. The Zenith in the party began to call out to the Unconquered Sun for strength, guidance etc, and the Dawn began to call out orders, battle formations and tactical information for the rest of the circle. All in all I've never really had a problem with it. If you feel it would be dramatically appropriate for the conversation the characters are having with an adversary to break combat, then do so. If you think it's dramatically appropriate for a particularly long soliloquy to add a tick or two to their next action and give them a couple die bonus, go for it. Throwing that sort of thing in there goes over very well with players in my experience and it's always nice to be able to reward your players for good roleplay with bonus dice. It keeps the game fun for everyone involved and lets the players feel like their characters are really accomplishing something by being dramatic at appropriate moments.

 

[Fomoria]

I mean exalted is supposed to be anime like right ?

Nope. Next question.


Okay, I'll give a longer answer. Exalted merges a bunch of different things, not least of which are heroic epics of the Classical era and other mythologies. The different kinds of Exalted are based on the heroes of different cultures throughout the real worlds history, from Germannic berserks through to Chinese warrior-bureaucrats.


Certain charms and charm trees (like most of the martial arts) are taken from Wuxia and Anime, but equally some of the other charms are taken from Western entertainments as well. As are warstriders.


The aesthetics of the setting are a real mix, so we can't say definitively what is in the majority there.


So, don't think about anime in relation to Exalted; think of the Journey to the West or the Illiad, or Beowulf. Getting your players to stop in the midst of a combat to discuss their concerns with the enemy is not only unnecessary from a stylistic point of view - it's horribly corny. Like the antagonist explaining his scheme to the protagonist before the death trap scene.


If you did want to do it, simply make use of opponents who will shift between heavy offensive and heavy defensive such that players have an incentive to leave a cooling off period where people can talk. In character reason? The opponents are sensible, reasonable people that would rather the situation be remedied without further personal risk, hence talking to their enemies is a good way of ascertaining all the dimensions to try to reach a compromise that is satisfactory to both sides.

 

[NateDojo]

It can be really hard to convince someone of your point of view during furious combat, but one of these solutions might work for you.

• Allow for social combat to act parallel to physical combat. Set it out on two battlewheels or whatever, and allow for cross-stunting (such as feinted attacks to allow for a dramatic pause, pulled hits to show mercy, forceful blows to back-up a point, etc.) This can be a little tough on book-keeping, and may not have the effect that the ST wants.
  
• Allow Social Combat to be flurried with physical combat, to a degree. A suggestion that I read before was taking a -1 DV penalty for (Social Attack in Long Ticks) x 10 = short tick duration. That can make it hard on book-keeping, though, especially since Social attacks take so damned long.
  
• Allow Social combat to move at the same speed as physical attacks. I highly recommend against this, though, since it usually takes long than five-ten seconds to get out a sentence, especially when focused on combat.
  
• Encourage your players to create charms that allow them to make a social attack during combat. For instance...
  Courtier's Sturdy Argument
  Cost: 2m;Mins:Linguistics 1, Essence 2;Type:Simple
  Keywords:Combo-OK
  Duration:Instant
  Prerequisite Charms:None
  Sometimes Lawgivers find that negotiations become physical confrontations before such is desirable. In such events, the Lawgiver may use this charm to make a Social Attack during combat.
  Follow-on charms could follow the lines of Poetic Expression Style, into something a player may call Foe Becomes the Friend Approach, with a scene-long ability to flurry social attacks with physical attack, thus solving your problem.

I really think that Charms are the best solution to this problem, as it's not something that anything short of a "magical" effect to be able to make a comprehensible argument in an effective amount of time.

 

[Nightmare of Fallen Kings]

I mean exalted is supposed to be anime like right ?

Nope. Next question.

Incorrect. I've spoken DIRECTLY to a few of the writers and artists for Exalted, and they said that they wanted to capture the feel of anime in the game's combat system and artwork. In fact one of the artists, Peter Mohrbacher, who has worked on numerous whitewolf games including Exalted 2nd ed. was at Fanime a couple weeks ago and we were discussing how he didn't like the fact that what they wanted was less of a "epic fantasy" feel and more of an "action anime" feel. They tossed a out a lot of the conceptual work he did because it wasn't anime enough. Check out his site at vandalhigh.com if you get the chance, his artwork is phenomenal. Just try and tell me this http://www.vandalhigh.com/color/exodus.jpg doesn't have Exalted written all over it. It was the first thing I thought when I saw the piece, and what started my conversation with him about Exalted.


Yes Exalted is also supposed to evoke the feel of the great epics of ages past, but it is directly inspired by anime. That doesn't mean you have to run your games that way, but the base material is, explicitly, meant to invoke that "anime feel".

Certain charms and charm trees (like most of the martial arts) are taken from Wuxia and Anime, but equally some of the other charms are taken from Western entertainments as well. As are warstriders.

Warstriders


are


Mechs.


period.


That's what they're meant to imitate. Not the Colossus of Rhodes. Not the Cyclops, or King Kong. They're piloted battle robots. They're mechs. You don't have to like it, but they are.


Don't get me wrong, choosing to run your games with a feel more inspired by ancient epics is all good and well, and probably makes for a great game. But don't confuse your style of storytelling with the intent of the writers.

 

[Fomoria]

Incorrect. I've spoken DIRECTLY to a few of the writers and artists for Exalted' date=' and they said that they wanted to capture the feel of anime in the game's combat system and artwork. In fact one of the artists, Peter Mohrbacher, who has worked on numerous whitewolf games including Exalted 2nd ed. was at Fanime a couple weeks ago and we were discussing how he didn't like the fact that what they wanted was less of a "epic fantasy" feel and more of an "action anime" feel. They tossed a out a lot of the conceptual work he did because it wasn't anime enough.[/quote']
The games combat system and artwork do not define its core themes, surprisingly enough. This is not D&D, where the stated intent of the game is to cut monsters into little pieces, so the combat system is not the primary focus - it's filling in what most epic myths leave out with an appropriately entertaining system. The styling of the combat charms is part of making combat an interesting proposition for the players that want to focus entirely on it - stealing the D&D crowd more than integrating anime themes.

Yes Exalted is also supposed to evoke the feel of the great epics of ages past' date=' but it is directly inspired by anime. That doesn't mean you have to run your games that way, but the base material is, [u']explicitly[/u], meant to invoke that "anime feel".

Again, only the combat styling and artwork. The core of Exalted is epic fantasy, down to details like the nature of gods, the Exalted, the history, the wyld, etc. It doesn't matter what you put on the front cover; if the stuff inside is epic multinational fantasy then it's still going to be epic multinational fantasy despite the catgirl.

Warstriders
are


Mechs.

Yeah, I was in the process of rewriting the tail end of that paragraph and forgot to change that last statement to "Warstriders, we all know where they come from." Originally the comment about anime being the basis for a number of superficial elements came directly before it. I failed to notice that it no longer connected in my quick proof-read prior to hitting the submit button.

Don't get me wrong' date=' choosing to run your games with a feel more inspired by ancient epics is all good and well, and probably makes for a great game. But don't confuse your style of storytelling with the intent of the writers.[/quote']
You've only made arguments for the art being anime inspired. Argue about the actual source material instead of the pretty margin drawings and you might be able to persuade me otherwise.


Don't get me wrong, it's not like I hate anime. I, however, do not think that Exalted is an anime-inspired game because of the vast swathes of the source material that is epic fantasy in tone and substance.


Ah, the drafting of a comment comparing mortals to Mo-Hsi reminds me that I need to read up on my Oriental mythology again.

 

[NateDojo]

[...]I, however, do not think that Exalted is an anime-inspired game because of the vast swathes of the source material that is epic fantasy in tone and substance.


Ah, the drafting of a comment comparing mortals to Mo-Hsi reminds me that I need to read up on my Oriental mythology again.

Anime-inspiration is the trait that sets Exalted apart from most of its competitors, though. I don't think it's really fair to call someone else's game ideas corny, as monologues are part of the action sometimes. Redemption is a theme for Abyssals and falling is a theme for Solars. You eliminate two very fun, but dark, themes if you don't allow for talking during combat, and those are just two simple examples.


In any event, in the above quote you contradict your earlier statement of

The aesthetics of the setting are a real mix, so we can't say definitively what is in the majority there.

I just want to remind you of how moderately you started out, because it can be easy to make a diametric argument to counter something that one doesn't like, nor necessarily use (such as an anime-feel in your games).


As a final quote,

The final sources of inspiration for Exalted are Asia's over-the-top manga, anime, video games, and wuxia films [...] More than the rest, it is this last source that differentiates Exalted from its competitors.

 

[Fomoria]

[...]I, however, do not think that Exalted is an anime-inspired game because of the vast swathes of the source material that is epic fantasy in tone and substance.

Anime-inspiration is the trait that sets Exalted apart from most of its competitors, though. [...]


In any event, in the above quote you contradict your earlier statement of

The aesthetics of the setting are a real mix, so we can't say definitively what is in the majority there.

I just want to remind you of how moderately you started out, because it can be easy to make a diametric argument to counter something that one doesn't like, nor necessarily use (such as an anime-feel in your games).


As a final quote,

The final sources of inspiration for Exalted are Asia's over-the-top manga, anime, video games, and wuxia films [...] More than the rest, it is this last source that differentiates Exalted from its competitors.

Okay, we are using different meanings of the term. "Anime-inspired" can indicate a game that has draws somewhat on anime sources for some elements. It can also refer to a game that is heavily based on themes and story elements in Japanese media. The first quote of mine that you included refers to the latter meaning rather than the former. The original statement that spawned this debate appeared to indicate the latter usage as well, at least to me.


Exalted is a game with an aesthetic influenced by Japanese media, it's not a game based primarily on Japanese media. Introduction of additional elements of Japanese media is a modification to the tone of the game rather than an extension of it. Exalted is not BESM, or OVA, or Panty Explosion (urgh, why'd they use that name). If you prefer that, fine. Do not, however, assume that your particular game style is the intent of the writers.


I admit that there was probably a better way of phrasing my intent. I bear the confusion on my own shoulders entirely.

I don't think it's really fair to call someone else's game ideas corny, as monologues are part of the action sometimes. Redemption is a theme for Abyssals and falling is a theme for Solars. You eliminate two very fun, but dark, themes if you don't allow for talking during combat, and those are just two simple examples.

One should not need to establish an arbitrary and quite contrived exception to the flow of the game to permit the achievement of a thematic goal, it's a bad practice (anything which breaks flow or immersion is bad). If your circle feels that redeeming Abyssals is important then remind them that hitting Lethal incapacitated does not mean immediate, unavoidable death and that they can use called shots or coup-de-grace attacks (they're so wonderful) to limit the damage they inflict to managable levels.


Creation is a setting where a limited supply of high yield Capital exists (Exaltations), so controlling this Capital is important enough to warrant attempts to transfer it from one hand to another. Deathknights are going to know about the fact that Deathlords can convert Solar exaltations into Abyssal exaltations and, therefore, they will attempt to take Solars alive and attempt to persuade them of the value of their cause (a fresh Abyssal exaltation is weaker than an experienced Solar). Equally, Solars who are in the know will probably want to redeem the Deathknights they encounter.


Given that the system allows you to save enemies who are near death, though, I cannot see either side relenting in the midst of a fight in order to attempt to convince their opponent of the superiority of their faction. It's more efficient to capitalise on the opponents' retreat to capture a number of them and attempt to convert the captives.


Put simply, the monologues that would be instigated are unnecessary and would end up being artificial in light of the facts about the setting and thus would break immersion as well as impeding flow. I further point you to the comic section between Chapters 3 and 4 ("Traits" and "Drama and Systems") of the Second Edition core book, this section depicts the kind of epiphany that I can find believable. In combat your mind stops processing higher-level thought and focusses on how to get out of the next couple of minutes alive.


I'm of the school of thought that dictates that antagonists should generally be rational people, rather than incompetant wackjobs, that happen to have strong disagreements with the protagonists. They should, therefore, make sensible decisions towards achieving their aims, rather than accepting irrationality to fit into the presumptions of a metagame-entity about how events should unfold. The idea that sides should part without either having achieved its objective is anathema to the setting's credulity in my eyes.


It might be enlightening to know that I practice the Elucidated Raging Bastard and Presumptious Devil's Advocate styles of argument. I can say "Just as planned" no matter how things pan out.

 

[NateDojo]

Well done on the usage of charm names in your argument, such as "impeding [the] flow" and such, as well as anathema!


Well said. I remain unconvinced that every monologue is boring, stereotypical, and unrealistic. Even if it's just giving the hero time to gather his or her wits, it can still be really fun. The end of Iron Man (which would have worked out for the villain if not for several unpredictably lucky twists of fate in the hero's favor) didn't seem manufactured nor out of place for me, though I'll admit that I was expecting the villain to just close with him and stomp the shit out of Iron Man rather than trying to use aimless weapons.


In any event, I think that most determined and experienced villains would have a preferred method of dealing with opponents. Options include simply finishing a PC off, giving the PC a chance to surrender, or simply incapacitating the PC so that the villain's Master can pitch the evil plot to the PC him-/herself. I disagree with your attempt to discount the second option though, especially if the villain is either filled with hubris, exceptionally good at convincing, or simply wants to wear away at the PC's willpower before knocking him senseless.


It's quite alright, I like to parry with Selective Argument Practice and Forgotten Debate Style. Hopefully the last post of this thread will have only an esoteric connection to the title of the thread.

 

[Fomoria]

I have to admit that those references were actually coincidental.


A stronger version of your first point is, actually, somewhat true. I would have to exhaustively prove every possible monologue trite and corny, or else demonstrate some facet of the mere act of monologuing during combat to be corny. I do not think that I can, because I do think that one can make good use of speech in a naturally occuring lull in the violence.


A good example, I feel, is one usage of monologue in the first Garden of Sinners movie. The antagonist breaks away by floating away from the field of combat, to another roof. Shiki stunts her pursuit, leading to a lull in activity wherein the antagonist is quite shocked (they hadn't anticipated that Shiki could pull off that kind of stunt) and Shiki is recovering from her stunt. Shiki approaches the antagonist again, as an obvious enemy but not currently focussed on physical activity. This is the kind of lull that one can make use of to introduce speech into the combat without it seeming artificial.


Your second paragraph includes the statement that I am trying to discount offers of surrender to opponents. I do not believe I had stated as such, though I understand how it may seem so. I only wish to discount the artificial introduction of room to monologue for purposes of achieving a metagame objective. It's about how the action level escalates over the scene and how this artificial contravince would ruin the proper flow in a jarring manner.

 

[Persell]

Ah I see the pointless flamewars are in good health despite me not engaging in them anymore :wink:


Guys, really. Exalted can do Anime and it can do Epic. Both are inspirations for it (admittedly, I personally think the greek epics were a bigger one in the first edition than they are now, but it is a rather academic point).


How it will pan out ultimately lies with the group and the storyteller.

 

[Jakk Bey]

The nice thing about Exalted is that it can accommodate a lot of styles of play, and certainly combine them. They aren't mutually exclusive.


A great deal of anime is classic Epic storytelling. My people borrowed heavily from literary sources, and visual styles to create their own style. And that is really what we're talking about with both wuxia and anime, is style. Conventions of storytelling, all wrapped around tales that can be very personal journeys to grand epics. And anime tends to do it bigger--and with more dramatic pauses. But it's a style. It's not just superdeformed perverts running around waiting for tentacles to randomly rape or old men to steal panties. There are grand epic fantasy anime, as well as tight character drama anime, and even tennis and baseball anime. It's a wide range of styles--and trying to distill it down to the idea that it's ALL one thing or another is kind of silly.


Anime does tend to focus on beats. Moments. And that storytelling aspect is one of the stronger elements in the style. You can go from zero to 120 in the space of six frames, and then back to an idle in just as small a space of time. If anything, that aspect of the style is perfect for RPGs--unless of course, you come for the combat aspect, and really like moving minis, which you can do, if you want. It's flexible enough to accommodate that too.


But the system is designed to capture the feel of our Eastern brethren and sistren's storytelling experience. It borrows heavily from anime, wuxia, and even chambara, and fuses it with classic Western story elements to create a mono-mythic background that gives fertile ground for lots of storytelling styles. And it's that fusion that gives it a great deal of longevity and flexibility.


If you want to argue about what Exalted "is" you can do so until the cows come home, and both be right, because the system incorporates so many styles under its belt, and you can do lots with it. What you do with it, that's your business. Retell the classic myths of demi-gods and make your own epics. Tell tight character driven dramas about Heroic Mortals caught up in the affairs of Gods and their servants. Tales of swashbuckling adventure. Tales of intrigue and underhanded politics. Tales of dread and horror. Tales of ghosts and regret. Tales of monks challenging the Mandate of Heaven with fists and quelling demons. And the nice thing about Exalted is, you can do all of these, and more, in the same campaign. Heck, even in the same session. The fluidity and flexibility is the real strength.


But ultimately, I think, what should rule your games, no matter what, is the story. If the story has a need for a beat, for your villain to reveal his prime motivation is to "save" a village from being reaped by the Fae in the grotto near, and the best way to save them is preserve them and their spirits, pristine and caught in the perfect moment of death, as opposed to ravaged and turned inside out by the Fae, you get not just a chance to show that your villain isn't necessarily a murdering asshole, but a chance to explore the psychology that pushes someone to the Deathlords, and balance views across the board. Take that beat then. Let it happen as an outgrowth of play, not as a dry mechanic.


Tell the story. Tell it your way, certainly, and if your way is to power through things, drive on, but also recognize that some folks are going to take a more cinematic approach.

 

[cyl]

That's exactly what I meant: the beat.


I've never played/ST 2e outside of the pbp board, which is less concerned by problems of beats than live action... and I have a hard time feeling the beat of the tick system because of the surgical aspect of its timing, but, if you say this can be bent... then ok, I just have to find my own way of bending.


But I have to say... Dominik doesn't need to get cranky now, the flame's still up

 

[Persell]

Not being cranky. more amused ^^

 

[Gtroc]

But ultimately, I think, what should rule your games, no matter what, is the story. If the story has a need for a beat, for your villain to reveal his prime motivation is to "save" a village from being reaped by the Fae in the grotto near, and the best way to save them is preserve them and their spirits, pristine and caught in the perfect moment of death, as opposed to ravaged and turned inside out by the Fae, you get not just a chance to show that your villain isn't necessarily a murdering asshole, but a chance to explore the psychology that pushes someone to the Deathlords, and balance views across the board. Take that beat then. Let it happen as an outgrowth of play, not as a dry mechanic.
Tell the story. Tell it your way, certainly, and if your way is to power through things, drive on, but also recognize that some folks are going to take a more cinematic approach.

that and fun, it is a game, and it is all about fun. the story is great, but don't let it get in the way either. every one shows up for different reasons, but the core concept is fun, distraction, diversion, that sort of thing. I am not disagreeing with what Jakk says, merely adding what I think is important on to it. if breaking off into a monologue in the middle of combat is not fun for your group, don't do it. if letting your melodrama fly is fun for your group(as it is for mine ) then cry havok and et slip the dogs of war! just my thoughts on the matter.


Edit:forgot my post the first time...oops! ops: