Claws of Silver Moon: Seriously?

[Ncolic]

On our latest session our ST decided to play with a essence 5 Lunar against us (4 abyssal with 130ish xp). And we learned to fear lunar's combat prowess. We currently planning to crush him under a mountain or something because we cant stand toe to toe with that monster.


Not sure if our ST is using the stats correctly but IT had following;


spd 5 Acc 27 Dmg 35L / 6 (P) Def 20 ; And 31L soak with shit loads of HL


Lunar was using Perfection of Earth Body (last charm of Earth Dragon Style) which was doubling his str and sta giving him essence acc, dmg, def to his unarmed attacks.


It was able to use excellencies to increase the Acc bonus further.


Is it just me or do you guys also find this kind of stats abit too much even for an experienced Char (with 5 essence)

 

[Sherwood]

It could be that your ST was assigning stats as he saw fit in order to pose a challenge to your party. I don't know if the character sheet he/she was using is a legal one, and just how much xp it would take to make a player character have the same stuff.

 

[Ncolic]

It would take 174 xp to a player to have it and about 20 xp more for 2xOx-body to have good enough health levels,


ofc the char would be just a combat junkie with no charms to do other things


2knacks


12 MA charms


Claw of Silver Moon and MA exellency


(14str,7dex,14stam)


so 200 ish xp needed for a player char to have Royal-Class warstrider stats


the thing is from that 2 charms char is recieving +12acc +28L/6 and that seems to be quite high imo.(bare min would be 164xp to get to master Earth Dragon style and get claw, 2 knacks, 5stam and essence 5 ofc)

 

[Haku1]

In short, that lunar would make a good pet for some solar, abyssal, infernal, dragonblooded or fey.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

On our latest session our ST decided to play with a essence 5 Lunar against us (4 abyssal with 130ish xp). And we learned to fear lunar's combat prowess. We currently planning to crush him under a mountain or something because we cant stand toe to toe with that monster.
Not sure if our ST is using the stats correctly but IT had following;


spd 5 Acc 27 Dmg 35L / 6 (P) Def 20 ; And 31L soak with shit loads of HL


Lunar was using Perfection of Earth Body (last charm of Earth Dragon Style) which was doubling his str and sta giving him essence acc, dmg, def to his unarmed attacks.


It was able to use excellencies to increase the Acc bonus further.


Is it just me or do you guys also find this kind of stats abit too much even for an experienced Char (with 5 essence)

Technically he couldn't even use that charm, but that's a whole 'nother thread.

 

[Gylthinel]

Yeah, instead of killing him, just use a few social charms to conquer that tweaked out munchkin.


The claws, however, were only giving +7acc, not +12 (+5 is from the Earth MA style, if I read the description correctly).


I'm not sure how he figured the damage. It should be 49L by my count (base 14, +16 for the claws, +14 because the MA form doubles his strength, + essence for the MA form). That means the claw is "only" giving +16 damage, not +28. Also, the claws don't make it piercing, that's another charm.


When you said DEF 20, I assume you mean his defense pool is 20, not his parry DV, right? Sounds like it should be a pool of 22 (Dex 7, MA 5 +3 specialty (I'm assuming), + Essence, +2 for using "punch" as a defense).


That means that when you use the claws you're looking at +7ACC, +16DAM, +0 defense. That's what the claws contributed to the sum, the rest was from that overpowered charm. That's no better than a Moonsilver Goremaul, which gives +5 ACC, +16(P!)DAM, +3 defense, and does not take a simple (or misc) action to activate. Ergo, in perhaps the most extreme example, I don't see the claws as being overpowered. And if you had a Lunar who wasn't a total munchkin, the claws would be entirely reasonable.


And MrMephisto is right, you can't use that Earth charm w/ a Lunar, thanks to those form-fixing tats.

 

[Haku1]

A fey would LOVE that Lunar... undetectable lie "You love me, and serve me."

 

[Ncolic]

hmm.. yeah +7acc 16L/6 +0 def doesnt seem much and thats one of the most powerful form of it. I guess our ST either forgot about lunar's tats , unless ofc if it cant be chanced to include his earth form anyway...


Its ok to face things like that from time to time ; it was fun to trying to dent that thing (none of us had 46L raw dmg to cut him , he was somehow immune to min dmg )


anyway as i said we are planning to drop a mountain on him , our daybreak prepared the explosives ^^


Still the thing about is having +7acc i am not that fussed about the dmg part but as you stated it sounds okish. (i think our ST secretly disires to treat us like young vampires facing a get of fenris ^^)

 

[Haku1]

There are ways around ping. At least that lunar wasn't packing the charm that allowed him to ignore specific types of damages; such as soulsteel weapons? ^_-

 

[Kyeudo]

And MrMephisto is right, you can't use that Earth charm w/ a Lunar, thanks to those form-fixing tats.

That depends on how you rule Celestial Martial Arts. The tatoos protect against any effect that would change the Lunar's shape that does not come from his inherent abilities, but it never defines what "inherent abilities" means. I personally consider learned Martial Arts Charms to be inherent abilities, as they are identical to a character's natural Charms once learned.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

And MrMephisto is right, you can't use that Earth charm w/ a Lunar, thanks to those form-fixing tats.

That depends on how you rule Celestial Martial Arts. The tatoos protect against any effect that would change the Lunar's shape that does not come from his inherent abilities, but it never defines what "inherent abilities" means. I personally consider learned Martial Arts Charms to be inherent abilities, as they are identical to a character's natural Charms once learned.

According to the examples, it wouldn't work. But yes, they do need to clarify it. With what information we have though, simply knowing such a non Lunar charm doesn't make it inherent abilities for the tattoos.

 

[Kyeudo]

According to the examples, it wouldn't work. But yes, they do need to clarify it. With what information we have though, simply knowing such a non Lunar charm doesn't make it inherent abilities for the tattoos.

The only example that comes close is the Sorcery example, and sorcery is described fluff-wise as being not natural to any of the Exalted.


The power of a Charm always comes from inside the Exalt using it. It isn't outside him, it's part of him. That's the fluff on Charms, at least, so that's why I've always gone with "your own Charms work with the tatoos" ruling.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

The only example that comes close is the Sorcery example, and sorcery is described fluff-wise as being not natural to any of the Exalted.

Neither are Martial Arts Charms really. No book as of yet, has delved into the metaphysics of it definitively.

The power of a Charm always comes from inside the Exalt using it. It isn't outside him, it's part of him. That's the fluff on Charms, at least, so that's why I've always gone with "your own Charms work with the tatoos" ruling.

So basically houserule. Gotcha. You would think for something like this though, we'd have gotten something a little more specific.

 

[Haku1]

Well... Lunars have gotten the raw end of the stick with regards SMA, they might still end up with the short end of the stick with regards shapeshifting CMA.

 

[Plague of Hats]

Neither are Martial Arts Charms really. No book as of yet, has delved into the metaphysics of it definitively.

There's an entire book on the subject of martial arts, which treats this specific topic. However mechanically unsound Scroll of the Monk is, it's fluff is at least acceptable if not exciting, and consistently describes use of supernatural martial arts as an internal mastery over one's own Essence.

 

[Dracogryff]

However it has been officially stated that Air Body Style, a Lunar Charm, cannot be used by Lunars that have been tattooed. By that logic, Charms are not automatically considered inherent for a Lunar.


I will also admit that this particular Charm has the 'Shaping' keyword, which Perfection of Earth Body does not, but if a Lunar Charm can be nulled by their own tattoos, and Earth Dragon Style is not a natural style to them...I'd probably rule not, myself. *shrugs*

 

[Gylthinel]

I've always interpreted the book to mean that Lunars can't be shifted by anything other than their innate Lunar shapeshifting. I've always considered Charms to be unable to shift a Lunar. I further consider Martial Arts to not be "innate" because you have to have a mentor. If you had a charm that would shape-shift you that you could learn as a natural charm, then I might consider it an "internal" affect, but CMA has to be trained (even if that 'training' is from memory, in the case of Solars), so I don't think that any shapeshifting effects from CMA should be applicable to a tatoo'd Lunar. This seems thematically what the authors are going for, and mechanically gets around the sort of chicanery that comes up when a Lunar takes on other forms that grossly modify their attributes.


One way to allow a player to be shifted by his own charms (and perhaps even spells) might be to let him design a Knack that does so. That'd be a good ruling from-the-fence.

 

[Plague of Hats]

However it has been officially stated that Air Body Style, a Lunar Charm, cannot be used by Lunars that have been tattooed. By that logic, Charms are not automatically considered inherent for a Lunar.
I will also admit that this particular Charm has the 'Shaping' keyword, which Perfection of Earth Body does not, but if a Lunar Charm can be nulled by their own tattoos, and Earth Dragon Style is not a natural style to them...I'd probably rule not, myself. *shrugs*

The distinction of the Shaping keyword should not be why a Lunar can not use Air Body Style, but it is a good reason to consider revising Air Body Style based on the author's intent. One or more core Lunar Charms become usable by tattooed Lunars based solely on the fact that it lacks the Shaping keyword, which in turn renders the Shaping keyword nonsensical.
Word by way of StephenLS is that Peter Schaefer meant for Air Body Style to be a "lost magic", one that Second Age Lunars can no longer use. His execution was poor.

One way to allow a player to be shifted by his own charms (and perhaps even spells) might be to let him design a Knack that does so. That'd be a good ruling from-the-fence.

That would largely undo the whole "broken castes, lost magic, fallen era" thematic of the Lunars.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

Neither are Martial Arts Charms really. No book as of yet' date=' has delved into the metaphysics of it definitively.[/quote']There's an entire book on the subject of martial arts, which treats this specific topic. However mechanically unsound Scroll of the Monk is, it's fluff is at least acceptable if not exciting, and consistently describes use of supernatural martial arts as an internal mastery over one's own Essence.

oh I'm aware. I'm talking about in relation to this particular metaphysical quandry about Lunar tattoos.

 

[Haku1]

Or you get a non-tattooed Lunar for the fun of it all. :lol:

 

[Smeggedoff]

well sure, that Chimera stuff at the back of the book is Awesome