Claws of Silver Moon: Seriously?

[Gylthinel]

I'm sure this has been addressed before, so I apologize for re-hashing an old post. But I couldn't find anything that addresses this. I'm just wondering if I understand Claws of the Silver Moon correctly.


I have an essence 3 Lunar with Strength 5, dexterity 4, and martial arts 5 (with 3 dice of specialty). So, when I pump on the most powerful iteration of Claws of the silver moon while in DBT, their stats look like:


Acc: 21 (Dexterity 5, MA 5, specialty 3, base claws 2, bonus [dexterity] 5, and punch 1); damage 14 (Strength 6, talons mutation 2, bonus of Strength 6 again); speed 5; parry DV 8 (Dex 5, MA 5, specialty 3, punch 2); rate 3.


Does that look right? That accuracy is rediculous. And if I further understand, once I reach essence 4 my claw damage will go up by another 8 (strength +2), for a total of 22. Is that right?


I just want to confirm that I'm interpreting the rule correctly. How they wrote it throws me off.

 

[Brickwall]

The interpretation is correct. But I have seen more absurd things. Admittedly, only two or three in starting characters, but still.

 

[Virjigorm]

Without digging my Lunars book out, that looks right. Don't forget that you've also invested in the mutations to get those numbers. CotSM also is a charm and, as such, counts toward dice adding maximums.

 

[Virjigorm]

actually...since it creates a weapon...does it count toward maximums? I could be wrong about that.

 

[Brickwall]

Dice added from summoned weapons are not covered anywhere in the rules. I'd ask that to the errata wiki, but I doubt it will get answered in a timely fashion.

 

[Virjigorm]

I've never thought of this possible limitation before, but now that I have, mu ruling for my games will be this:


Since CotSM is a charm that enhances natural weapons by stacking it's bonuses onto them, it counts toward maximum dice pools. A charm like Glorious Solar Saber would not count accuracy toward max bonuses since it is conjured as a distinct weapon and has its own stats, rather than modifying another trait.


The claws still easily beat the pants off a grand daiklaive when made right, so their awesome should not be too diminished by this rule.

 

[Virjigorm]

Does that look right? That accuracy is rediculous. And if I further understand, once I reach essence 4 my claw damage will go up by another 8 (strength +2), for a total of 22. Is that right?
I just want to confirm that I'm interpreting the rule correctly. How they wrote it throws me off.

the higher Essence bonuses replace, but do not stack with, the lower Essence versions. You would get 2 more damage plus the overwhelming damage added on to the claws at Essence 4. Sorry, didn't notice that part at first.

 

[Arthur]

The original thread where this was addressed has some interesting opinions.

 

[The zombie cat]

And if I further understand, once I reach essence 4 my claw damage will go up by another 8 (strength +2), for a total of 22. Is that right?

i don't think that is right. i believe the damage bonus changes from (+strength) to (+strength +2).


as to the accuracy and dice caps. claws of the silver moon enhances the accuracy of the weapon, not your dice pool directly. so it wouldn't count towards the dice cap.


Edward

 

[MrMephistopheles]

What zombie cat said. Weapon stats, even weapons created by Charms do not count against die cap.

 

[Virjigorm]

What zombie cat said. Weapon stats, even weapons created by Charms do not count against die cap.

Is there a page reference for that?


Exalted pg 185 says in a table that a pool of (dex+melee+Specialty+Weapon accuracy) has a max dice addition of (dex+melee) for Solars.


It also says: "no combination of charms can increase a Solar Exalt's dice pools by more than this amount." referring to (attribute+ability).


Since the same rule goes for Lunars, except with a max of (attribute), the base weapon stats of the natural attack are your starting point, and CotSM is a charm that adds to that dice pool. With charms that summon a complete weapon which relies wholly on it's own stats, I would agree that the conjured weapon becomes your starting point for dice adders. Since CotSM is not a weapon created by a charm, but rather a charm that gives bonuses to an existing weapon, it seems like it would count.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

Exalted pg 185 says in a table that a pool of (dex+melee+Specialty+Weapon accuracy) has a max dice addition of (dex+melee) for Solars.

Yes, and?

It also says: "no combination of charms can increase a Solar Exalt's dice pools by more than this amount." referring to (attribute+ability).

Which has nothing to do with equipment stats.

Since the same rule goes for Lunars, except with a max of (attribute), the base weapon stats of the natural attack are your starting point, and CotSM is a charm that adds to that dice pool. With charms that summon a complete weapon which relies wholly on it's own stats, I would agree that the conjured weapon becomes your starting point for dice adders. Since CotSM is not a weapon created by a charm, but rather a charm that gives bonuses to an existing weapon, it seems like it would count.

It replaces the stats of your natural weapon with new ones. Weapon stats do not count against die cap.

 

[Virjigorm]

It also says: "no combination of charms can increase a Solar Exalt's dice pools by more than this amount." referring to (attribute+ability).

Which has nothing to do with equipment stats.

CotSM is charm, not equipment. It specifically enhances something already there.

It replaces the stats of your natural weapon with new ones. Weapon stats do not count against die cap.

That is plainly not true. It specifically adds to existing natural weapons. It says so in the charm.

 

[Persell]

If CotSM was effected by the dice cap it would be unable to add Str+2 to damage at the essence 4 level. Clearly it does, therefore dice cap does not apply.

 

[Gylthinel]

Wait... so at essence 2 you get + STR to Damage, at essence 3 you get + DEX to accuracy, then... at essence 4, you get a meager +2 more to damage? That's a bit hard to swallow.


If the dice from this charm added to your pool, they wouldn't be called "accuracy." Accuracy does not count as dice towards your max pool. Just like the +1 accuracy from 1 Weapon/Two Blows doesn't count towards dice maximums. I believe the authors intentionally made this destinction.


Thanks for your help, all.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

CotSM is charm, not equipment. It specifically enhances something already there.

CotSM is a charm that turns your natural attacks into super artifact level natural weaponry with new and improved equipment stats. Equipment stats do not count against die cap.


News Flash, Solars, Abyssals and Dragonblooded also have charms that create weaponry with equipment bonuses, they don't count against die cap.

That is plainly not true. It specifically adds to existing natural weapons. It says so in the charm.

See above.

 

[Virjigorm]

If CotSM was effected by the dice cap it would be unable to add Str+2 to damage at the essence 4 level. Clearly it does, therefore dice cap does not apply.

This is the most reasonable counter argument I've heard. Since I've already explained why you are wrong, meph, I won't do it again.


If this were a knack that let you grow a weapon, I would not consider applying it toward dice cap. The overall power level of the charm and the fact that it is an enhancement style charm effect is what brings up the question.


This point about the "STR+2" part does poke holes in the idea, however. I suppose the charm should have a sentence after the one listing basic bonuses that says: "These improvements become a part of the natural weapon and do not count as bonuses from charms."

Wait... so at essence 2 you get + STR to Damage, at essence 3 you get + DEX to accuracy, then... at essence 4, you get a meager +2 more to damage? That's a bit hard to swallow.

You also get /(Essence+1) Overwhelming at Essence 4. This feature is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

This is the most reasonable counter argument I've heard. Since I've already explained why you are wrong, meph, I won't do it again.

Wrong in my original explination of the Charm, not wrong about the fact that weapon stats do NOT count against die cap, and charms that improve or otherwise alter weapon stats do NOT count against die cap.

If this were a knack that let you grow a weapon, I would not consider applying it toward dice cap. The overall power level of the charm and the fact that it is an enhancement style charm effect is what brings up the question.


This point about the "STR+2" part does poke holes in the idea, however. I suppose the charm should have a sentence after the one listing basic bonuses that says: "These improvements become a part of the natural weapon and do not count as bonuses from charms."

Charm power level and that it enhances stuff does not even factor into it. To take a page from Mrs. Moran, common sense is supposed to factor into reading charms.

 

[Sherwood]

When trying to calculate your dice caps, dont forget the fun you get when adding in the use of Lunar Fury that changes your die caps from (Attribute) to (Essence + Attribute) with the added bonus of a auto success with any combat action.


I love Lunars.

 

[Tedryn Nist]

Lunars definitely have some fugly attacks but that's somewhat negated by defense being greater than offense.

 

[Flagg]

The main "problem" I have with this Charm is the +Strength damage modifier. One of my PC's spirit forms has a 14 natural Strength.

 

[Kyeudo]

Then specify that the claws are entirely based off the character's human form.

 

[Flagg]

That violates the basic concept of a Lunar's true forms' Strength being "natural".

 

[Kyeudo]

That was the simplest fix I could think of. If you want something more elegant, you'll have to do something like reference it to the Lunar's Essence or come up with a way to explain the Charm inside the philosophy of the Lunar Exalts.

 

[Haku1]

I've always thought of the +STR boost being applied to whatever form you are in. If you're in puny human true form? It's the puny human strength. If you're in a fucking Tyrant Lizard form, you get the Tyrant Lizard strength bonus when you use the charm.


If said lunar has somehow gotten ahold of a form with MASSIVE strength (he'll need to work out the hows and possibly RP it), he shouldn't be penalized when he uses a charm in said form.