Changing the minimum damage

[magnificentmomo]

To help balance ping spamming and ECKSBAWKS HUEG attacks you could work out some version of multiple action penalties for essence ping. The actual quantity of the penalty would need to be worked out, but just make it so the ping spam gets weaker as the flurry goes on.

 

[cyl]

Well there's a quick answer to huge damage attacks... perfect defenses, so huge attacks are not a real problem.


It's the ping damage that sucks, and it doesn't make sense to put a penalty for Essence for multiple actions... because, what about extra action charms ?


I mean you can take multiple actions without charms, and they will make ping damage and they already have a penalty... but extra actions charms use only essence, why would they be limited too ? (unless you put the essence restriction on multiple action without charms as well).


Ok so I get 6 attacks for 5 motes & 1 willpo, I have essence 3... I am not gonna make 3-2-1-1-1-1 die rolls for ping damage... seriously.


Nope, I think converting damage dice in automatic levels is the best option .


Means two fighters of the same level (essence 3 to 6) with 7 HL, armored stuffed and all, need at least 8 hitting blows instead of 4 or less to defeat one another and that a DL can kill an extra barehanded in one single blow, and any other opponent with 7HL in 3 minor hitting blows.


But even with that option, repeating ping damage is still an option:


I'm solar bob, I got my 5 melee, and my invincible fury of the dawn, I make like 7 attacks by use. Most opponents will be choped into bloody pieces after 3-4 actions.


The only thing to do is to up Hardness values, but then life sucks for martial artists... unless you make them a new tag like Piercing Damage for every offensive charm (or upon activating the form all the attacks become piercing)


As Saphim said, lots of changes ahead.

 

[Gylthinel]

I have problems w/ min damage because it makes "tank" characters non-functional in Exalted. I have a guy with celestial battle armor that gives him a grand total of a wopping 18 soak. He'd die fast against a guy with even modest essence and a kitchen knife. Kinda depressing.

 

[Lord Kamina]

I have problems w/ min damage because it makes "tank" characters non-functional in Exalted. I have a guy with celestial battle armor that gives him a grand total of a wopping 18 soak. He'd die fast against a guy with even modest essence and a kitchen knife. Kinda depressing.

Uhh... Twilight anima/Blade-deflecting palm (I think it's this one)/Iron Skin Concentration/Hardness/Any perfect defense?

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

That kitchen knife you so fear...probably isn't going to get past your Hardness, anyhow. At least if you made good choices with your Celestial Battle Armor. Now, someone with a real weapon and some strength will do ping to you...but reducing a foe to just ping can be very useful. Especially when you can do that to the more powerful weapons.

 

[Arthur]

And most often, real threats will do much worse than pinging you if you don't Perfectly Defend at once.

 

[Gylthinel]

That kitchen knife you so fear...probably isn't going to get past your Hardness' date=' anyhow. At least if you made good choices with your Celestial Battle Armor. Now, someone with a real weapon and some strength will do ping to you...but reducing a foe to just ping can be very useful. Especially when you can do that to the more powerful weapons.[/quote']
I guess this is where I disagree. I had a player w/ essence 5 "ping" a target for 5 health levels of damage. That's an insanely powerful hit for a guy who can't actually hit very hard by virtue of anything other than his essence. In fact, it out-does the guy with the huge heavy weapon that hits really hard but only has essence 4. All summed, I suppose I'm not a fan of linking damage to essence when I think it should be linked to actual combat ability, sort of like what this thread is going for. But, alas, it's a tough rule to fix.


I suppose your experiences must be different than mine, because as far as I can tell, hardness is useless. We're actually using a substantial house rule to give it credibility in our game.

 

[Lord Kamina]

But that doesn't sound like Essence's problems... Rather your player was particularly lucky and rolled all successes.


I mean... YOU DO KNOW that Essence ping is rolled and 10s do not count twice?

 

[cyl]

5 suxx on 5 dice, that's a very lucky shot.


Of course it can happen, but the risk is rather small.


Of all the ideas to shape damage vs hardness, linking it to essence was the lesser evil.


Link it to strength, then you can get aberrations and pc killed in a blow, link it to an abilty, same thing, resurrect the 1e 1st rule (1 die min damage) then armored tanks rock the fight (and considering the tick system, it's not really a good idea)...


Unfortunately there is no good compromise here.

 

[Persell]

I suppose your experiences must be different than mine, because as far as I can tell, hardness is useless. We're actually using a substantial house rule to give it credibility in our game.

My group has had similar experiences with Hardness. We just shrugged our shoulders and used it to ignore Extras (which is what we assumed it was there for). Out of curiosity, what did you do to make it more effective? PM me if its really complicated and even more thread de-railing.

 

[Jakk Bey]

Re:

I have two reasons for the change.
One, I don't like the metaphysics of Essence minimum damage, it feels tacked on for game mechanics reasons. (A related point is that there are large differences in the Essence ratings of PCs. Having different power levels are fine, but I don't want to them to translate  into raw damage potential that straightforwardly.)


Two, this makes minimum damage from environmental effects, attacks by large creatures and other non-Essence wielding sources more consistent with weapon damages, without having to assign an Overwhelming number to all sources of damage individually.

It is less for metaphysical reasons, than cinematic. Wading through Extras and then facing the Venerable Demon Master with the Five Poison Fingers Hand who damn near kills your Lt. with one swat of his powerful fist is what you're looking at. It is a mechanic that is less about Essence and metaphysics, as it is about making your really powerful critters all that more dangerous, and it means that with other Exalted and supernatural beings, you'd best be investing in some damn defense.


It means, yes, the Essence 5 being can punch an Extra or Heroic Mortals' chest out. That's why it's done that way.

 

[Gylthinel]

I suppose your experiences must be different than mine' date=' because as far as I can tell, hardness is useless. We're actually using a substantial house rule to give it credibility in our game.[/quote'] My group has had similar experiences with Hardness. We just shrugged our shoulders and used it to ignore Extras (which is what we assumed it was there for). Out of curiosity, what did you do to make it more effective? PM me if its really complicated and even more thread de-railing.

I'm... too much of a greenhorn to know how to do that, so I'll just type it up. It's pretty easy. You get a "hardness pool" = to your hardness rating. You automatically reduce any damage received by 1 die per hardness, until your pool dries up. Example: You have 6 hardness, and take a hit from the Venerable Demon Master, he does 10 dice of damage. You reduce his damage to 4 dice, and he rolls those, and your hardness is kaput. Alternately, say you take a hit from a mortal, who does his 1 die of minimum damage... he'd have to hit you 6 times just to get past your hardness. Ergo, the hardness works good against anybody, not just pittly extras. In fact, I think it works TOO good, but we've stuck with it none the less.


My thing is, even an extra can rather easily overcome hardness. Take an average soldier (Strength 3) with a chopping sword (+4 damage, if I remember correctly), that's a base of 7 damage. He has to hit you with at least 1 success, so that's 8 damage, easily overcomming most sources of hardness. Boo hiss.

It is less for metaphysical reasons, than cinematic. Wading through Extras and then facing the Venerable Demon Master with the Five Poison Fingers Hand who damn near kills your Lt. with one swat of his powerful fist is what you're looking at. It is a mechanic that is less about Essence and metaphysics, as it is about making your really powerful critters all that more dangerous, and it means that with other Exalted and supernatural beings, you'd best be investing in some damn defense.


It means, yes, the Essence 5 being can punch an Extra or Heroic Mortals' chest out. That's why it's done that way.

It would be plenty cinematic to have a huge monster crush through heroes, of course, but not all high-essence opponents are huge monsters. They're often normalish guys, modest gods, etc. Like my essence 5 archer, or a combat-impotent City spirit. Yet, these normal guys with middling combat abilities can hose even huge, powerful opponents (like my tank with 18 soak) with just a few hits, and if luck is with them, even fewer than a few. It's not by virtue of their skill, their equipment, or their charm investment. It's only because of essence. Minimum damage like that is not just for slaying extras. Ironically, even an essence 5 being doesn't slay an extra in 1 shot automatically, as it takes a damage 7 hit to actually get the job done. Where's the justice when an extra can take an arrow and be not-dead... whereas your Deamon Lord taking the same arrow, suffering from a lucky damage roll, is nearly laid out? (as a side note... I hate rolling damage)


Further, I would posit that investing in a huge, expensive suite of armor should actually do you some good. IMO, you shouldn't have to get several powerful charms to thwart the attacks of creatures whos only merit is a few dots of essence. Shouldn't a truely "powerful" creature have actual attacks that can do some damage? Your big powerful armor should handle little hits, even if they're bigger than the tiny scratches that hardness blocks. When you start to fight truely tough opponents, they should have to do more than just ping you, as Arthur stated:

And most often, real threats will do much worse than pinging you if you don't Perfectly Defend at once.

All that is to say... IMO. I guess it is just a difference in taste, but it seems like there should be decent options beyond PD.

 

[Dracogryff]

I'm... too much of a greenhorn to know how to do that, so I'll just type it up. It's pretty easy. You get a "hardness pool" = to your hardness rating. You automatically reduce any damage received by 1 die per hardness, until your pool dries up. Example: You have 6 hardness, and take a hit from the Venerable Demon Master, he does 10 dice of damage. You reduce his damage to 4 dice, and he rolls those, and your hardness is kaput. Alternately, say you take a hit from a mortal, who does his 1 die of minimum damage... he'd have to hit you 6 times just to get past your hardness. Ergo, the hardness works good against anybody, not just pittly extras. In fact, I think it works TOO good, but we've stuck with it none the less.

Er. You've got it wrong here. According to core, page 145, Order of Attacks box, step 8, Hardess is applied to every attack and isn't a 'pool':

8) Apply Harndess and Soak' date=' Roll Damage:[/b'] If the victim has a Hardness rating against the attack's damage type, Compare the Hardness with the raw damage. If Hardness is equal or greater, the defense absorbs the attack without effect. Otherwise, the damage ignores the defender's Hardness.

Hardness, if not exceeded, makes the damage from an attack completely ignored. So, in your example, unless the raw damage of the mortal's attack exceeded six dice, they would do no damage to the person with the 6 hardness. At all. Ever.

 

[Persell]

If you have problems with high ping, have hardness effect ping rather than raw damage. Would mean hardness DOES something too. When soak reduces raw damage to zero, subtract hardness from the min damage of the attacker. So if MoW hits you and some how only gets min damage and you have hardness 3, he'd do 7 instead of 10.

 

[Nemal]

The main problem with your change is that it makes small weapon builds unfeasible.


Sure, having a guy run around with an insanely huge two-handed sword is cool. They're also a dime a dozen.


Problem is, the agile, sneaky character who fights with knives, based on precision and speed... does nothing with your house rule.


It doesn't matter that it's the Unconquered Sun. No amount of skill can make you relevant with those rules. You quickly survey the battlefield and any weapon with less than +7 damage gets ignored because, honestly, you're not going to get more than 2 damage from it anyway.


It produces a thematic concern. Yes, Cloud is cool, but I like the idea of Faka Kun being able to kill a damned extra in less than three attacks, you know?

 

[Jakk Bey]

Exactly.


Not a huge monster, but a wee tiny girl punches out the chest of one of the guards, you know instantly that this "little girl" isn't really such. High Essence beings are bad mojo. They're supposed to hose the extras--big armor or no. Hardness can affect that, as noted.


It sounds as if you have a problem with the scale of the game. And its source material.


And when did Extras get 7 Health levels? I use a fairly standard 4-5 to be honest. They are cannon fodder, and there for effect. They are the appetizer in combat, not the main course.

 

[Gylthinel]

Er. You've got it wrong here. According to core, page 145, Order of Attacks box, step 8, Hardess is applied to every attack and isn't a 'pool':

It is a hous rule I use that I was asked to articulate.

The main problem with your change is that it makes small weapon builds unfeasible.

Perhaps I didn't articulate the house rule very well. Your hardness pool is a depletable resource, like hit points in DND. It reduces dice of damage on a 1:1 basis. That said, a hardness pool like this reduces the same # of dice, no matter how they're dealt. So, if you take 30 dice of damage from a Sky-esq sword hit, 6 hardness would reduce 6 dice. Same thing if a little guy that picks away at you for 30 dice over 10 attacks, it'd still only reduce 6 total dice. So it actually does not affect the little hitter any more than it does the big hitter, save that the little hitter won't get "results" in the form of wound penalties until after a few hits. Fact is, if he does less damage, he'll do less damage, and this house rule doesn't change that one bit.


Ultimately, I don't really think that essence should make an otherwise combat impotent character good in a fight, I think it's purely mechanical, and has no basis in thematic appropriateness for the game. Generally, in Anime, if somebody is a total bada$$, it's not because "they're powerful." It's because them being powerful gives them powerful... powers. But, that's just one guy's opinion.


Extras have 3 health levels, but to kill them with 1 hit, you have to deal 7 total dice of damage, post soak. 7/3 = 2.33, rounds up to 3. That's where I got that figure from.

 

[Lord Kamina]

You're understimating Essence and what it means to the setting. You treat it merely as one more stat when in reality it IS the most close you can get to a raw power measure in the setting. An Essence 5 being IS SUPPOSED TO BE a monster regardless if it's a loli wielding a popsickle or a tentacled demon.


Also, Essence doesn't really make you that much of a monster in combat if you suck at it... You gotta actually hit a target first before ping applies.

 

[Gylthinel]

An Essence 5 being IS SUPPOSED TO BE a monster regardless if it's a loli wielding a popsickle or a tentacled demon.

Do you have a reference in the book? Cuz I've read that high essence creatures are world shaking, and have powers that boggle the mind, but I've never read anything that says they're all combat monsters. Or maybe I have and just don't remember. But, without that reference, I'd have to assume that measures of power go on the assumption that high essence = powerful and numerous charms. Just saying "essence is power" is not a sufficiently logical reason for why a guy with a powerful soul does more damage when he punches with a fist, cuts with a sword, or whatever. When I think of a monk who's harnessed his inner spirit to fight, I don't really see that spirit as making his fists hurt, I see it as giving him the ability to learn mean skillz. Mean skillz = charms.

 

[Lord Kamina]

Both more charms AND more powerful in general. This is confirmed by Essence being the cap on attributes and abilities.


Also, like I said before: YOU MUST HIT BEFORE ping comes into play. If you're an essence 5 being with dexterity 2 and melee 3, you're still not hitting without charms. Not when it counts, anyway.

 

[cyl]

Essence is your inner harmony with Creation, and your level of insight.


The more you have, the more you can:


- dodge


- resist persuasion (MDV)


- defeat your opponents (min damage)


And the more power you have at your disposal.


Anyway fighting with barehands or with a spoon won't make miracles against someone wearing 3cm of thick metal covering his body (hardness 10), unless you place a particularily devastating blow (suxx adding to raw damage), in which case his armor won't protect him from your kung fu !


And that's the whole point... kung fu... which is why soak is the last and less favored line of defense in the exalted game, because the writers decided that fight fu and dodge fu are way more cool than soak fu (but they probably didn't know Zaraki Kenpachi when they thought about it :twisted: ignorant fools !).