Blazing Solar Bolt vs Ebon Lightning Prana

[cyl]

So,


This discussion has come up in one of my games, broken/not broken, balanced, not balanced.


I *runs for cover* consider that apart for the Piercing tag, ELP is quite balanced vs BSB.


Here are the reasons:


- BSB negates DV making them unapplicable and ignores cover DV (including shields). Stunts are unapplicable too (as the text states, only charm or other form of magic).


-> so when you get to defend against BSB, your DV pool starts at 0, and you have to rely on charms to raise your DV. (meaning 10m for 5DV)


- ELP makes an attack automatically unexpected, both DV are unapplicable, though cover and shield bonuses still apply.


-> BUT if you have charms like Suprise Anticipation Method or Reflex Sidestep Technique (1m both), then your full DV is applicable vs the attack.


So I say: if ELP hadn't the auto draw/auto initiative BSB would be far more efficient than ELP.


Plus the auto draw/initiative already existed in the 1e abyssal book (cost: 4m), in 2e they added the ability to move the unexpected attack, and the Piercing "tag" for -1m +1w.


Actually I think that just removing the Piercing effect is in itself sufficient to balance them out.


What do you think ?

 

[Gylthinel]

We actually interpret the rules for perfect defenses and attacks differently than you. We take the caveat that charms can apply against it to apply only in cases where charms can negate perfect attacks. Meaning, you can't use an excellency to boost your DV against a perfect attack.


Meaning? BSB is better than ELP, if you ignore piercing.


But... you can't ignore piercing, unfortunately. It's just too big. It makes tanks into extras. It turns titans into pepperoni. And I don't know that ignoring the movement aspect of ELP should be done either, it's both flashy and useful.

 

[cyl]

Well following the system of inapplicable defense which effect is = DV drops to 0, when targeted by BSB this will happen:


- damn I'm hit.


- my DV drops to 0


- what are my bonuses... mmm okay shield and cover do not count, but I used a defensive charm (let's say 6 motes on the 1st excellency), so I get +3DV.


- no penalties here


- my DV is 3... how much did you get on your attack roll ?


- yeowch, that hurts !


Even with the Piercing damage, BSB is infinitely more efficient than ELP... against people without perfect defense.

 

[Gylthinel]

You think? If you don't have a PD then, per the popular interpretation of the rules, you can still use charms to boost your DV. But, if you don't have a charm that removes surprise (which a lot of people don't), then you cannot boost your DV against ELP. In that respect, it easily makes ELP better. And you really have to count piercing, which makes it even better. And ELP moves you a certain distance which, unless I"m mistaken, can include verticals, so you could, say, use ELP to get adjacent to a foe that's standing on top of a huge wall. BSB blasts 'em, and will really bring the hurt if they're a Creature of Darkness, but still... ELP seems hands-down superior to me.

 

[Brickwall]

Both are rather effective. More players have Perfects than have Surprise Anticipation, and more NPCs have Surprise Anticipation than have Perfects. Also, if the target uses surprise anticipation, they can only use that as a defense (and it will probably not be terribly useful) until their next action; if they use a Perfect or DV enhancement, they can keep using that against other attacks. In the end, they both often get through defenses.

 

[Persell]

Why should the Abyssal charm NOT be better at killing things? It's what they do. BSB isn't as good but it's not a HUGE gap.

 

[cyl]

Well technically yes there is a gap.


Considering the text of BSB:


- a single mote spent on an excellency makes the full DV applicable


- a perfect defense is always applicable


Now ELP:


- is defeated by a suprise negating effect (1m)


- but cannot be defeated by perfect defense, because of the unexpected effect (meaning you need a combo)


Here could be a fix:


- BSB automatically reduces both DV to 0


- ELP unexpected attack works as is :


The opponent cannot apply either of his DVs against the character’s blow without the use of reflexive Charms. The target’s player may attempt a reflexive (Wits + Awareness) when the target is attacked—the difficulty equals the attacker’s Essence. If the roll succeeds, the opponent may use any reflexive Charms or abilities he possesses to counter the attack. If the roll fails, the opponent may use only Charms that specifically state they work on attacks of which the character is unaware. (taken from Ebon Shadow Style)

 

[FluffySquirrel]

Actually, SAM doesn't even work on Ebon Lightning either, which is why it's a bit overpowered. Ebon Lightning automatically grants surprise, with no rolls to spot it.. and SAM specifically states it only works on things you have a chance of seeing (ie, rolled)

 

[strawberryleaves]

Now ELP:
- is defeated by a surprise negating effect (1m)

Actually, SAM doesn't even work on Ebon Lightning either, which is why it's a bit overpowered. Ebon Lightning automatically grants surprise, with no rolls to spot it.. and SAM specifically states it only works on things you have a chance of seeing (ie, rolled)

RST still works, though. Considering the cost is still one mote, does it matter if there's one counter to ELP, or two?

 

[Kyeudo]

RST still works, though. Considering the cost is still one mote, does it matter if there's one counter to ELP, or two?

Yes. Charm availibility. If I'm following everything correctly, ELP has only 1 Core counter (and not a perfect counter), while BSB has at least 3 imprefect counters and 3 perfect counters in Core.


ELP is far more likely to catch a Solar off guard than BSB is to catch an Abyssal helpless.

 

[Persell]

You can't for get AST, perfect SOAK FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Kyeudo]

Okay, so make that 1 imperfect defense and 1 perfect defense. BSB still has 3 times more counters availible.

 

[Brickwall]

If a BSB lands on an Abyssal, it deals Aggravated damage, FYI. Also, you can shoot it through a keyhole or arrow slit, and into places you just don't want to warp-run into. It has advantages.

 

[Kyeudo]

If a BSB lands on an Abyssal, it deals Aggravated damage, FYI. Also, you can shoot it through a keyhole or arrow slit, and into places you just don't want to warp-run into. It has advantages.

Yes, it does have its good points, but I think the crux of the whole thread is that ELP has more use in straight combat than BSB.

 

[Brickwall]

Then have less "straight" combat. Mix it up.

 

[Kyeudo]

Cyl seems to be looking for information on how to fix the power difference between the two Mirror Charms.

 

[syys]

I have been thinking of two ways to fix ELP.


One is to just remove the Piercing effect, and the +Essence dice to the attack roll, as they seem to be outside the core of the charm.


Another possibility would be to make the surprise not automatic. Following Blow-Concealing Gesture Technique (from Ebon Shadow Style), one could allow the target a Wits+Awareness roll at Difficulty of the Abyssal's Essence for the attack not to be unexpected. This might be a bit weak. Perhaps a better possibility would be to follow Lunging Phantom Method (from Hungry Ghost Style), where the Wits+Awareness roll is compared to the Abyssals' attack successes instead. (In this case, I would again be tempted to remove the Essence bonus to the attack dice pool.)


What do you think?

 

[syys]

One could also make the surprise only work if combat had not yet begun. This would be in keeping with the spirit of the charm. So, used after combat begins, the charm would just give Piercing, +Essence to the attack roll and allow you to move.

 

[Malekith]

I always disliked the notion that Abyssals should have combat charms that are BETTER than their solar counterparts; both are made from the same cut of cloth if you will


What I do like is that their charms have a different focus, more charms that concentrate on damage and combat, etc.,


Just my opinion =)

Why should the Abyssal charm NOT be better at killing things? It's what they do. BSB isn't as good but it's not a HUGE gap.

 

[cyl]

Well the difference between the two is resumed here:


- solars = world defenders vs creatures of darkness


- abyssals = world enders