Baseless and Rampant Speculation

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

I'm bored, folks. So it's time for new threads. Let's get some life. I know Thanqol will jump on this in a red minute.


Return of the Scarlet Empress, we are given a glimpse at Infernal transcendence. Granted, it makes you Ebon Dragon version two, but its a start. Holden and Hatewheel have hinted mightily that upcoming Ink Monkey posts will have the alternate paths to becoming ones own pantheon and transcendent being. Granted, you will, in effect, be a Primordial as that's what spawned your accursed Exaltation in the first place. But with being an Exalt, does that not add another element? Consider, the Primordial were shinma or something damn like them before they took shape, concept and sublimated their souls into the hierarchies of daeva (refer Voice of the Magnus).


Now, granted, there are more points to be made here on the nature and weft of the ways of the Primordial creature as it is. They are concepts, they are beyond gods, they are human only in the sense of their maddeningly familiar tracts of law, beauty, hubris, etc., etc. They warred against the formless Chaos from whence they came. That too is almost familiar. But, of course, they were so much more. Creators of reality itself, a domain to escape the torments and constant warring against the Fae of the consuming Deep Wyld. Cytheria and Gaia poof out Creation, soon its populated with all manner of creatures, gods, shrines, Heaven comes into being, on and on and on. We know a good chunk of their history and so details on the creatures themselves. Ebon Dragon's stats help this even more. We see what it is to be a Primordial at Essence 10 (discounting the probable HUNDREDS of charms detailing their more esoteric and outlying powers that define their beings).


What, then, of the Exalt that ascends? Nominal similarity cleaving to the 'standard model' we've been introduced to? Or something, as I'm hoping, a little different? When Nirvana is reached and you suddenly are popping out a pantheon of aspects to your own soul, I think that provokes a little outlook. But, as a creature who did not spring from Chaos, and indeed are imbued with a power forged by another Primordial and twisted to be like unto the very creatures your soul once beat...well, it makes you think.


Granted, I fully expect something ALONG the lines of what we've seen. But the wholly new Primordials about to be walking Creation bear some merit to reflect. What will they be? Surely, some of the GSPs will just go whole hog and emulate their masters, though God knows what'll happen with two Demon Cities running around...well, you know what I mean. Have I hit all the fine points, hardly. I'm bored and pulling most of this out of my ass.


But yeah, discuss.

 

[Alconoth]

In theory they could become entirely new realms of existence if they so chose. Creation exists, and being born of Creation (Their exaltations at the core are of Creation, at least) it can be assumed that they will enhance it and become part of it in some manner (If only touching it slightly).


Hell, perhaps they might even rise to become greater than what their Yozi masters once were because of the intrinsic superiority afforded to them by their Exaltation- Assuming their Exaltation does not flee them. Primordials do not have a Po for the Exaltation to attach to, though it has been theorized that the Neverborn are in fact the Po soul of a Primordial, with the Hekatonkhires (Spelling) being the fragmented remains of their Hun.


In a way what I'm getting at is that you end up with a Story Teller- A creature beyond all scope and imagination, bound not by his own nature- but only by the rules of the cosmos which he narrates...where all the pieces and players in the world are comprised of his soul hierarchy.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Funny how that relegates to the theories I had years past. Odd that. I don't know if you recall, but I presented something as such to Tommy some years ago going wildly off a post at RPG.net. The fire is the Wyld, Creation the mote in the center of the flames. So on and so on.


But! On the Neverborn, I believe it's also been speculated the Heks are possible remnants of the former daevas along with the stuff of the undying creatures' nightmares. Speculation, mind.


I submit that the Exaltation will ultimately be pulled from the ascending soul. Unless these paths to Nirvana state otherwise, I think it can be a very fine assumption. Consider the power they're encompassing. What really can the spark of the Sun give in the face of the hierarchy of souls? Truly, their spark doesn't entirely mean that much as a GSP in the first place. Namely, it's a perversion of their greatest creation/foe, Ignis Divine. If you're on the path to ascend, I'd venture ol' Starshine doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot now, lest some really wild Past Lives hijinks.


The potential for greatness beyond the Yozi/Primordial, a being bound to Creation, but I imagine they'll become free-roaming. Unfettered, as it were. Much can be said of the virtues of Essence 10, Exalt or Primordial, but the C-C-C-C-Combobreaker! of Exalt shard plus Soul Hierarchy McWorldmaker is a stretch.


But, this too leads to questions. What of divesting your shard? Back to Lilun with it? When would it occur? Ultimately, what is the point of the Infernal choosing his own way? Does s/he divorce themselves from their patron with a Charm? With an act? Granted it's an epic tale in the making by itself, but let's get the juices flowing here. A child of the Dragon would have a hell of a time making himself his 'own man' as it were.

 

[Alconoth]

You must remember that Ignus Divine is a being more perfect than the Primordials themselves- such was the goal of the Titan King (Malfeas) when he was challenged by the Ebon Dragon to make the Sun. So, perverted or not, the Solar Spark that rests in the heart of any Green Sun Prince still holds a huge amount of sway in what they can become.


Given the power-chart of essence ratings in the Scroll of Errata it is known that an essence 10 Solar-level Exalt can become greater than a Primordial. What does that mean for those who do choose to become a primordial? Certainly it would make no sense for them to abandon such immeasurable power just for a down-grade in power. With that said, there will most certainly be some sort of metaphysical change to either the Exaltation itself or to the dominant soul (Fetich?) of the new Primordial Being.


Looking at the suggestion of the Exaltation itself changing, I can see three obvious possibilities...


1. The Exaltation shatters, unable to contain limitless power and ability to expand which is held by a Primordial.


2. The Exaltation, like its host, becomes something greater than it was.


3. The Exaltation returns to Lillum- Though in this scenario I'm fairly certain the second possibility comes into play. The Infernal Exaltations aren't "pruned" of their memories... so what happens to an Exalt who receives the memories of a GSP who, at the moment the shard broke free of its Primordial Host, experienced the thoughts, dreams, goals... Well, to simply put it- Who experienced what it is like to become a being that cannot be contained by a single form.

 

[Thanqol]

I am particularly qualified to talk on this topic because I've got an Infernal who took her first big step to Primordialhood recently!


*Clears throat; this could be a long one*


Clockwork Beat of Victory was a Green Sun, specializing in Adorjani and Ebon Dragon charms. During one particular climactic encounter, she got hit with a high-end Border of Kalideoscopic Logic Charm and trapped in a mindscape duel. The Sidereal, upon seeing the twisted abomination of her mindscape, realized his mistake and aborted the charm - but when he exited back to Creation, Creation was now her Mindscape and Clockwork was now a collection of 'demons'.


Clockwork underwent the following changes:


- She split into twelve separate bodies; most of these corresponding to an Intimacy, Virtue, or part of her history. Only one of these is genuinely warlike - the Soul that represents her crush on the Circle's Dawn Caste.


- She continues to possess charms of, and embody some concepts of, both Adorjan and the Ebon Dragon. The result of this has been that all twelve bodies are completely silent, completely black silhouettes.


- While she maintains Ebon Dragon and Adorjan charms and concepts, she has started to build her own, using theirs as a springboard. Born out of an utter disconnect between solid black and solid white, Clockwork has become the Primordial of Contrast. She will start exploring new ideas in this line soon.


- One of the twelve bodies is Clockwork's Exaltation. The Exaltation-Soul roughly corresponds to a Fetich. This has the following weird, cosmic effects:


The Exaltation is now awakened, alive, and seamlessly integrated into the whole. It's 'body' can be destroyed and it will form a new one, but the strain of doing that causes effects equivalent to Fetich Death.


The Exaltation is self aware and developing it's own personality. It is not spawned from any part of Clockwork - it has it's own mind - but it is influenced by her. The Fetich is both the truest core and the outsider's perspective.


- There is no "Clockwork" (only Zuul)


One of the biggest misinterpretations about Primordials made by ape races is that Malfeas is a personal, or Adorjan is a distinct entity, or that the Ebon Dragon literally is that fifty mile long phallic symbol. The Primordial's brain is his souls; the power-politics and cosmic battles of Malfeas' souls are literally his thoughts. The many subconsciously comprise the collective. As such, there is no "Clockwork" you can go up to and chat to.


"Joutens", like Malfeas' city, are the Primordial's physical body. Since it's a Primordial, the body can usually respond on incredible levels, and it can manipulate the 'mind' - in the same way that getting angry produces physical changes that make certain lines of thought happen, except it's cosmic explosions of brass and fire making souls fight for what little cover remains which makes the whole more warlike.


In the end, the most difficult thing about roleplaying an Ascended Infernal is the new thought processes. It's no longer decision; it's politics. You've got to work out who's for and who's against in any situation.

 

[MorkaisChosen]

Given the power-chart of essence ratings in the Scroll of Errata it is known that an essence 10 Solar-level Exalt can become greater than a Primordial.

Eh, I disagree here. "Powers beyond those which formed the universe" could just imply that Primordials have powers greater than those that formed the Universe, and I read the second part as saying the Primordials don't entirely understand it, not that they aren't as good at it as Solars. Solars can probably do more than any Primordial with E10, but the Primordials may well be more impressive within their purview.


YMMV, as always.

 

[Alconoth]

Solars can probably do more than any Primordial with E10, but the Primordials may well be more impressive within their purview.

You make a very valid point. Taking what you've said, it can be said that an E10 Solar is more powerful than a Primordial because they aren't bound by/within their own nature. A Primordial is likely unable to even conceive ideas that are beyond themselves without a massive retrofit to their Soul-Hierarchy whereas a Solar pretty much is able stare at the box he's trapped in, build a door to said box, and then walk out.


Though this can be brought back into the question of "What happens to a GSP who becomes a Primordial?"... Well perhaps his Exaltation, assuming it doesn't leave him, allows the entirety of his being to transcend what would be his purview? Or would it simply affect his Fetich or Joutun?


We can all agree that something that has transcended to Primordial status after centuries of evolution and change probably is more potent and powerful than one of the original Primordials- If anything its ability to recall the faded dreams of what it once was will give it insight into how it feels to be a primordial creation in a world controlled by supernatural beings more powerful than you. Then, this same being knows what its like to transcend and be the effective ruler of Creation greater than any being... So in other words, if not mechanically more powerful, this new Primordial would understand the world from the ground up- rather than being a powerful world-shaping titan from the get-go.

 

[Virjigorm]

In Return or the Scarlett Empress, the charm (Yozi) Cosmic Principle is the one that consolidates your essence pool and alters your charms and Essence into that of a Primordial. In the text of that charm, it states that the Exaltation flees the host. Specifically, it says:

If an Exalt, his Exaltation departs as it no longer recognizes him as human, leaving him with “only†the Primordial power he has become

on pg209.


The charm (Yozi) Pantheon Unfurling allows creation of souls for (Essence x 100)m each. This is your entire Essence pool when creating a fetich, but caps at 900m for any non-fetich soul. This is on pg 209 also.


This part is my ideas:


Since the Exalt who reaches this point is, at his core, human and not a set of principles spawned from chaos. The individual has the ability to create new souls to define principles of his individuality, though these should probably be gradual changes that fall within the bounds of the Primordial his charms are based on at first. By pruning away souls and remaking them, the limits of concept could be stretched until something entirely different is reached. The only reason I think the Yozis themselves do not do this is that they are too bound by their conceptual nature. A human soul is a spark of unlimited potential and conscious self-reflection that a Yozi does not have. This seems to be a similar process to how the victors of the Primordial War altered their captives to imprison them.


Also, by mixing the charms of various Yozis at this level of development, one could emulate Malfeas' body, but retain Ebon Dragon charms, though the Cosmic Principle charm would force the city-body to be adapted to the Ebon Dragon's themes in order to make it into an Ebon Dragon charm that the character could retain.


It is also possible to create Yozi charms as a Green Sun Prince, so any of the existing (Yozi) Something SomethingTM charms could be mimicked with different themes and Imperfections by an Essence 10 GSP.


Bear in mind that Solars can do nearly all of this as well. The charm Primordial Principle Emulation from Glories:US is specifically stated to allow the Essence 10 Yozi charms to be learned by a Solar using this technique. A Solar still can't make his own Yozi charms, but all the rest is within the power of PPE.

 

[Jukashi]

daeva

wat

 

[Mr. S]

Since the Exalt who reaches this point is, at his core, human and not a set of principles spawned from chaos. The individual has the ability to create new souls to define principles of his individuality, though these should probably be gradual changes that fall within the bounds of the Primordial his charms are based on at first. By pruning away souls and remaking them, the limits of concept could be stretched until something entirely different is reached. The only reason I think the Yozis themselves do not do this is that they are too bound by their conceptual nature. A human soul is a spark of unlimited potential and conscious self-reflection that a Yozi does not have. This seems to be a similar process to how the victors of the Primordial War altered their captives to imprison them.

This process of pruning is similar to what my impression was of the primordial that escaped the Primordial war, only to later come back to wage a guerrilla war on the Deliberative, had done. This Primordial was mentioned in Dreams as having removed everything from itself not related to war.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Aye, Ramethus was a mighty, mighty fucker who took a stack of corpses once labeled Exalt with him.


To Thanqol, hmm, I find it interesting what your character went through, but almost expected, as we've all seen your Primordial fetish. :wink: The idea of the fetich as the Exaltation given form is neat from a story perspective. I rather enjoy it. And I recall the charm mentioned now, but hey, ST fiat can say fug that if it's compelling.


To Jukashi and those curious: This is what I was referring to.

 

[Alconoth]

I'm more curious to how a newly exalted Infernal will react to remembering the moment the previous Exaltation rose into Primordialhood- It would be even sweeter if the Infernal was being exalted by the very same primordial who bore his previous Exaltation

 

[Teln]

You're making the rather large assumption that the Yozis will feel like sharing their Exaltations with a Johnny-Come-Lately who's technically still their servant.

 

[Alconoth]

True, but if you had a shard of infinite power that was useless to you, you likely wouldn't let it sit on the shelf.

 

[Aasharu]

Teln, you're making the assumption that an ascended Infernal would still be working for the Yozis at that point. Considering that an Essence 10 Infernal has the potential to have the charms of multiple different Yozis, (and even some whole Primordials, if they can get in touch with Gaia or Autobot,) they will both A. be more powerful then their erstwhile masters, and B. be less constrained then said masters. Keep in mind, an ascended Infernal is not bound, at all, by the Yozis surrender oaths. If and when an Infernal reaches that point, I think they'd be far more likely to give a hearty "Fuck You!" to the Yozis, and go off and do their own thing. And I'd suspect that some enterprising group of Infernals would snatch Lilliun for their own purposes long before then. I know I would.

 

[Jukashi]

To Jukashi and those curious: This is what I was referring to.

I was just... surprised.


Y'know?

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

I figured as much, but I'd show regardless!

 

[Seraphina]

Given the power-chart of essence ratings in the Scroll of Errata it is known that an essence 10 Solar-level Exalt can become greater than a Primordial.

As a side question where do you find that power chart in the Scroll of Errata? I can't find it or anything like it.

 

[Alconoth]

As a side question where do you find that power chart in the Scroll of Errata? I can't find it or anything like it.

Page 81, "Elder Essence Minimums"

 

[Seraphina]

Thanks you! I see why I couldn't find it now my scroll of errata didn't go anywhere near that page count.