[Background Mod] Familiar

[cyl]

I think a plausible and coherent way to do it would be to mix the chargen I designed (with attributes and skills), then add BP to buy mutations and buy "powers".


There I'd need to check at least 3 or 4 types of familiars to see how much BP they need to become what they should be.

 

[Mempo]

I agree, my NPC uses his familiar (a flying squirrel) for spying and the like. I think that definitely balances out the loss of higher stats for easier stealth; when you have your familiar stalking a subject they would probably wonder why the same dog or cat keeps showing up wherever they go, while a smaller (flying) familiar will be over looked and harder to spot if (like mine) they keep to the trees when they're not flying about.
Birds would be that much better at being inconspicuous the more mundane they seem, so only someone pretty familiar with the wildlife of the region would question a bird that seems pretty rare to the area.

TBH, I think noticing an animal spy (Familiar, spirit, nemissary, whatever) should work on the same principle as spotting a Lunar's Tell. So long as you keep missing your rolls, you won't notice a thing. But once you've spotted said animal, you'll always notice it, regardless of whether it's common or rare.

 

[cyl]

That goes against the principle and mechanism of reestablishing surprise.


Small things are harder to notice than big ones, even worst if they're on the move.

 

[cyl]

So I did a bit of thinking checking out the 1 dot familiars and the mutations (by the way: Ker'ion, great job with your mutations mods http://lore5.patternspider.net/article/show/22 !).


and here are some lists of drawn up familiars I could come up with.


I consider the familiar to be some sort of spirit starting with a roughly humanoid blank form. Mutations are then added to define the form of the familiar.


small / medium dog (beagle): Fangs 1, enhanced sense (hearing & smell) 2, fur 1, night vision 1, tail 1 Wolf's Pace 1, compact/small 1, total : 8 BP to make a dog.


coral snake: fangs 1, enhanced sense (smell) 1, scales 1, night vision 1, serpentine tongue 1, tail 1, toxin 2, compressed/ tiny 2, serpent's body 6: 16 BP to make a snake


cat: fangs 1, claws 1, fur 1, tail 1 compressed/tiny 4, dark sight 2, enhanced sense (sight and hearing) 2, wolf's pace 1: 12 BP to make a cat.


ichneumon: compact/ small 1, wings 6, toxin 1 (or maybe not), dart (= fangs) 1: 8/9 BP


mospid: tail 1, feathers 1, compact / small 1, enhanced sense (sight) 1, night vision 1, wings 6, : 11BP to make a mospid


raiton: feathers 1, compact/ small 1, enhanced sense (sight) 1, night vision 1, wings 6: 10 BP to make a raiton.


Any objections ?


My conclusions: we need to raise the BP awarded in your system.

 

[Bodhisattva]

You're mutating an amoeba into these creatures? None of them have a base type?


A dog costs 8 BP as opposed to a cat that costs 12 BP? Sounds very messed up to me.


My conclusion: To be honest, you need to set a base type creature (which I have yet to do) and not use the mutations system for creating normal creatures. It really wasn't designed to do so. Raising the BP award in the system would allow for someone to basically make an amoeba with crap-tons of Charms, so I'm not so sure that's a viable idea unless you make requirements for what BP you can spend where, which gets far more complicated than it needs to be. Once I get around to writing up the base creatures, I think you'll have a much better idea of what I'm getting at.


Of course, you could write up a few base creatures (cats, dogs, raitons, etc...) to help me along if you wish.

 

[cyl]

My point exactly, in theory, a cat is more advantaged by mother nature than a dog.


Actually cats are much more adapted to solitary life than dogs... they are much better hunters (not at the tracking part, but at the killing part).


Dogs, like wolves, work around pack tactics to tire a prey and kill it (lions also do that, but they're like the few felines that hunt like this).


Cats are extremely efficient lonely killers (and their morphology shows this): they're shorter than dogs (can hide and ambush prey easier), their sight is better (dogs have smell), they have claws and they can "see" in the dark. (hence the difference of 4 points).


In a fight, the cat has a chance against the medium dog because he has a large set of claws, fights while prone with all four limbs + bite, while the dog only has his fangs and strength to toss the cat around.


Against the large dog model (Familiar 2) the cat is completely overpowered.


What I am trying to say is: creature have been made unequals by nature, but there is no reason at all why familiars should follow this logic... mainly because players character do not and because they are something more than just a simple animal.


With the stuff I have in mind you could build familiars like Puss in Boots (with a custom prehensible thumb mutation), or a dog with wings, a pegasus, and all sort of fantastic creatures which I think will add a great anime feel to a character.


Haven't figured out how to incorporate them to the setting though... probably spirits created / designated by the Incarnae to protect their exalted masters...


It adds much more depth to the familiar than it has in the basic setting don't you think ?

 

[Red Shadow Claws]

Well, here's the basi write-up for a cat that I came up with, if it helps...


Cat


S/D/S 2/4/2


P/I/W/W 3/1/3/3


Health Levels


-0/-1/-2/-4/I


Attacks


Bite (S/A/D/R) 6/5/2L/1


Claw (S/A/D/R) 4/5/2L/2


Dodge DV 4


Soak 2B


Abilities


Athletics 3, Awareness 3, Dodge 3, Integrity 2, Investigation 2, Martial Arts 2, Presence 2, Resistance 2, Stealth 4, Survival 2.


If any more animals are needed to be statted, I'm willing to work on them.

 

[cyl]

I'd erase Investigation from it and raise MA to 3 (you don't say catfight for nothing ) and Athletics to 4, lower Integrity to 1 (selfish bastards) and raise Survival to 3.

 

[Red Shadow Claws]

cats are curious by nature, and I think investigation fits there. Also note that I think a house cat is fighting more with it's natural dex than with i's actual ability with martial arts. if it were a small dog i'd say Dex 3 and MA 3, which means that they are about equal in a fight, as far as basic stats go, though I can seee your point ragrding Athletics, Integrity and Survival.

 

[cyl]

If I may, statistically you are slightly mistaking:


The dog will only have one single attack option, the bite (Rate 1).


The cat will have 4 limbs to attack with and a mouth (Rate 2 and Rate 1).


Cat can make 3 attack per turn Dog only 1. Cat pwns Dog :lol:


EDIT: which is why I'm actively looking at the necrotech rules because there you get options !

 

[Red Shadow Claws]

Note that I was merel commneting on the number of base dice they get, not on the number of attacks. :mrgreen:

 

[Bodhisattva]

If I may, statistically you are slightly mistaking:
The dog will only have one single attack option, the bite (Rate 1).


The cat will have 4 limbs to attack with and a mouth (Rate 2 and Rate 1).


Cat can make 3 attack per turn Dog only 1. Cat pwns Dog :lol:


EDIT: which is why I'm actively looking at the necrotech rules because there you get options !

I think you're grossly misrepresenting both the cat and the dog in your posts, cyl.

 

[cyl]

Sorry... but I used the dog and great cat references in the corebook (mind you, the speeds of the great cat's attacks are totally screwed up...)


In the rules, considering the system and onslaught penalties if the cat starts to wound the dog, it will kill it (dv penalty and lower attack pools).


But as with regular combat, initiative and timing will determine everything anyway, but there is a significant edge for the cat.

 

[cyl]

What could be used from the necrotech:


- Attribute Augmentation: no more than the Familiar's rating


- Aquatic propulsion (useful for marine familiars or mounts), 2BP


- Burning Body and or elemental / essence aura, varies (max 5) (could be a power more than a mutation)


- Climbing articulation, 2BP


- Fortitude 1 BP (max stamina)


- Disease Carrier (gross, but heh... abyssal have famiilars too), 1BP


- Distant Destruction 2BP


- Keen Sense 4 BP


- Silent processes +1 BP per +1 stealth (max 4)


- Transport: 2BP / person and perhaps consider a magnitude 1 if the creature is both Giant and has taken Transport various time.


And of course the attacks traits and augmentations of both natural and ranged attacks.


Familiars are helpful for 3 things, useful multiple tasks, combat and transport.


Most of them can do several at the same time, but I think it could be cool to let the player decide what he wants as a companion.

 

[Bodhisattva]

Sorry... but I used the dog and great cat references in the corebook (mind you, the speeds of the great cat's attacks are totally screwed up...)
In the rules, considering the system and onslaught penalties if the cat starts to wound the dog, it will kill it (dv penalty and lower attack pools).


But as with regular combat, initiative and timing will determine everything anyway, but there is a significant edge for the cat.

Here is a base, partially based off the Cat and Dog entries in the World of Darkness book, p. 203 (which would seem to disagree with you that cats are more powerful than dogs).


Cat (Average, 10-15lbs.)


S/D/S: 1/4/3


P/I/W/W: 3/2/3/3


Health Lvls: -0/-1/-2/I


Atk (S/A/D/R): Bite: 5/6/2L/1


_____________ Claw: 5/6/1L/2


Dodge DV/S: 3/1L/3B


Abilities: Athletics 3 (+1 Balancing), Awareness 3, Dodge 3, Integrity 2, Investigation 1, Martial Arts 1, Presence 1, Resistance 1, Stealth 4, Survival 2


Dog (Guard, 80-100lbs.)


S/D/S: 3/3/3


P/I/W/W: 2/2/3/3


Health Lvls: -0/-1/-1/-2/-4/I


Atk (S/A/D/R): Bite: 5/5/4L/1


_____________ Claw: 5/5/3L/2 (Yes, dogs do have claws and do use them to scratch when they fight)


Dodge DV/S: 2/1L/3B


Abilities: Athletics 2, Awareness 3, Dodge 1, Integrity 1, Investigation 1, Martial Arts 1, Presence 2, Resistance 3, Stealth 1, Survival 3 (Tracking +3)


Level 2 Familiar Cat (20 BP)


Flying Cat


Cat base value: 0 BP


Mutations: Affliction: Thick Skin (2 BP), Abomination: Wings (4 BP)


Alterations: Dexterity 5 (4 BP), Martial Arts 4 (6 BP), Presence 3 (4 BP)


Level 5 Familiar Cat (50 BP)


Prism Cat


Cat base value: 0 BP


Mutations: Affliction: Thick Skin (2 BP)


Alterations: Essence 3 (7 BP), Dexterity 5 (4 BP), Athletics 5 (4 BP), Integrity 3 (2 BP), Martial Arts 5 (8 BP), Presence 4 (6 BP), Resistance 2 (2 BP)


Charms Acquired: Amethyst Awareness (5 BP), Dragon's Suspire (5 BP), Ox-Body Technique [-1/-2] (5 BP)

 

[cyl]

The claws of a dog, more lethal than men with a knife...


Reason, dude... reason.


Okay these claws can leave bruises and scars... but you can't die from being scratched, and they won't cut deep enough to generate life threatening blood loss (I'd give them bashing but certainly not lethal) :roll:

 

[Bodhisattva]

So, you convert it to bashing. It's a whole lot more reasonable than your assumption that a cat would cost 150% of the bonus points of a dog, or that they're inherently more powerful. White Wolf disagrees with you in print. If you're going to say, "Reason, dude... reason.", you need to chant that mantra in the mirror.

 

[cyl]

err I meant claws for dog should be bashing... cats can make you bleed big time and leave much deeper cuts with a single blow.


Cats have more advantages as natural predators than dogs. That's a fact.


Dogs eat cats because they're generally tougher and can chew them to death.


But I've seen a single cat beat the crap out of a 3 years old german sheperd just because the dog came too close from his territory bubble.


The dog tossed me around like I weighted nothing when we played, but fled before the cat because of the surprising pain it inflicted her. (a beautiful female named Osis, belonged to my best friend... died of suffocation along with her shi tzu pal in a car with windows closed a year later :cry: ).


Anyway, I've tried to make cats with the mutation system... not my fault that they came out with 12 BP.


You represented their stealth skills with ability points, I did that + represented their small size using a mutation.


IMHO a 1 dot familiar could start as a horse, a cat, a dog or anything roughly doable with the BP allowed.


EDIT:

White Wolf disagrees with you in print.

Oh that wouldn't be a first, but then again, they haven't exactly shown a 100% consistency in whatever they have written in the past decade.

 

[Requiem of Forgotten Lore]

Oh that wouldn't be a first, but then again, they haven't exactly shown a 100% consistency in whatever they have written in the past decade.

That's so true. Sometimes I feel as if the rules were written by someone with a split personality with some of the contradictions throughout the Exalted world. That's the only way I can explain some of the big question marks when I look at the rules.
"Ok, since you want to buy your first dot in Investigation. Well the book says it'll be (current rating x 2 [-1 point if favored])... which means it's free... Your character sits down and watches the entire first season of CSI Las Vegas and has somehow learned something... extremely cheaply. Congratulations."

 

[Red Shadow Claws]

"Ok' date=' since you want to buy your first dot in Investigation. Well the book says it'll be (current rating x 2 [-1 point if favored'])... which means it's free... Your character sits down and watches the entire first season of CSI Las Vegas and has somehow learned something... extremely cheaply. Congratulations."

Except that the first dot in an Ability, whether favored or not, costs you 3 XP, otherwise, even the first dot in a non-favored Ability wouldn't cost you anything, because your current rating is 0.

 

[cyl]

So how about this:


Familiars are kin spirit to the exalt created and sent or chosen to protect their exalt master.


At times it can also be that a person has a tied relationship with an animal and that when he exalts, the creature is blessed as well.


They might start as regular animals or be formed and sent to the exalt by the Incarnae, but they are loyal and benevolent towards their rightful master.


The creature usually take natural animal shapes but as time goes by their power usually grows, and they will more and more develop extraordinary features that will reveal their divine heritage.

the familiars all starts with roughly humanoid shape and size, mutations are then applied to them, to define their form.
All of these three categories share the following traits:


- relative intelligence of a 6 years old


- can obey some orders


- can communicate through postures noises or expressions


- 5 motes available to the character when he touches them


- shared sense up to 100 yards


1dot familiars start with : 13 dots to distribute among attributes, 25 dots of abilities, 5 dots of virtues and 20 BP to buy mutations and upgrades.


2dots familiars start with: 19 dots to distribute among attributes, 25 dots of abilities +1 Integrity + 5 dots of specialties, 5 dots of virtues and 35 BP to buy mutations and upgrades.


3dots familiars start with: 25 dots to distribute among attributes, 25 dots of abilities, + 2 integrity, + 1 willpower and 50 points BP to buy mutations and upgrades.

Okay until 3 I got that, I think the next step is effectively essence 1 and some basic charms before passing to essence 3 with the 5dot category.


note: with one dot you could make a dog, a cat a bird, a horse, a wasp or even a warhawk (taking mutations).


Up til now what do you think ? Better ? Worse ?

 

[cyl]

I can actually make a simple warhawk with the first dot... maybe too much huh ?!

 

[Requiem of Forgotten Lore]

Except that the first dot in an Ability' date=' whether favored or not, costs you 3 XP, otherwise, even the first dot in a non-favored Ability wouldn't cost you anything, because your current rating is 0.[/quote']I see what you're saying but if you look at it all it says is this:

Favored or Caste Ability
(rating x 2) - 1


Out-of-Caste Ability


(rating x 2)


Ability


3

It still contradicts itself. For my first dot in a non-caste/favored ability do I want to spend nothing or 3 exp; for my 3rd dot do I want to spend 6 or 3 exp; and for my 9th dot 18 or 3 exp?

Up til now what do you think ? Better ? Worse ?

I like it still don't see anything for a flying squirrel in the list Mr. Bodhisattva. As far as the whole fighting thing for animals (which I seemed to have missed in constant catching up in this thread) why are you using MA and not Melee?

 

[Bodhisattva]

Oh that wouldn't be a first' date=' but then again, they haven't exactly shown a 100% consistency in whatever they have written in the past decade.[/quote']That's so true. Sometimes I feel as if the rules were written by someone with a split personality with some of the contradictions throughout the Exalted world. That's the only way I can explain some of the big question marks when I look at the rules.

Also, as far as rules consistency from one book to the next... Each new author brings something new to the setting. Sometimes they focus more on some rules than others, and sometimes they just plain focus on something completely new and different. It's not that you have a split personality writing the rules for Exalted. It's that you have multiple personalities writing rules for Exalted all throughout a multitude of books.

 

[Red Shadow Claws]

Except that the first dot in an Ability' date=' whether favored or not, costs you 3 XP, otherwise, even the first dot in a non-favored Ability wouldn't cost you anything, because your current rating is 0.[/quote']I see what you're saying but if you look at it all it says is this:

Favored or Caste Ability
(rating x 2) - 1


Out-of-Caste Ability


(rating x 2)


Ability


3

It still contradicts itself. For my first dot in a non-caste/favored ability do I want to spend nothing or 3 exp; for my 3rd dot do I want to spend 6 or 3 exp; and for my 9th dot 18 or 3 exp?[/qoute]


Note that the Ability 3 xp cost is listed under New Trait listing, which means that only the 1st dot in any Ability, whether favored, caste, or non-favored, will cost you 3 XP if you don't have even 1 invested in it. The cost to increase it beyond that 1st dot would be (ratingx2) or (ratingx2)-1.


Not so hard to comprehend when you actually read the table. :mrgreen: