Artifact that allows the user to learn a sidreale martialart

[rattleingpython]

A player in my game wants to have had his first age incarnation build an artifact that wouild allow him to learn a sidreale martial arts style in future lives without a sidreale tutor. He is an abyssal. His current suggestion is an artifact five. On one hand im inclinded to say no but then it seems if its an artifact five there is no good reason it shouldnt be possible.


What does everyone else think.

 

[skafte]

Re: Artifact that allows the user to learn a sidreale martia


I'm would be inclined to tell the player to go find a Sifu, as I find it cheapens SMA to just have an artifact overcoming your problems, but on the other hand, if he wants to use 5 background points on this, plus the insane amount to xp to reach a combat level where SMA is used, not to forget your still need to find the charms or reinvent them, then go ahead.


There is the little problem about a character starting with an artifact 5, but I guess he is not really a starter character when SMA is an option level for him.

 

[rattleingpython]

Re: Artifact that allows the user to learn a sidreale martia


He has it on a wish lists of artifacts he would like. The thing is it kinda feels like the artifact cheapens the theme behind sidreale martail arts and solars learning it. Which is why i dont actually like the artifact.

 

[Moonstone Spider]

Re: Artifact that allows the user to learn a sidreale martia


Who is his patron? With the right one he might have a chance to study under the Green Lady. That would supply a Sifu willing to teach an Abyssal without the artifact. Alternately if you want to make him work for it, design some sort of quest or feat that will impress her sufficiently/earn a favor from her to get the art.

 

[Persell]

Re: Artifact that allows the user to learn a sidreale martia


Bad Idea. SMA is supposed to be a world altering, mystical and mysterious power that only a select few outside of Sidereals ever gain access to. An artifact that basically acts as some sort of SMA LeapFrog goes against this theme.


That said its not going to unbalance your game if you allow it. Well, not anymore than SMA will unbalance it on its own.

 

[wordman]

Re: Artifact that allows the user to learn a sidereal martia


I'd forget the artifact idea. The important thing is that the player wants to learn sidereal martial arts. As Spider's post says, there are ways to do this. The important thing about all of them is that the character needs to work and sacrifice something to get them. The artifact cheapens the whole thing, and worse, could be passed to another player once the first character learned the charms. (Unless you want to be a real jerk and have him go through the whole thing, then destroy the artifact, stripping him of the SMA he "cheated" to get.)


(Also, the word is "si-de-re-al", meaning "of or pertaining to the stars", and pronounced like this.)

 

[Virjigorm]

Re: Artifact that allows the user to learn a sidreale martia


I might allow an abyssal to learn SMA, but not from an artifact. Maybe from a ghost of a first age Sidereal who happens to be bound into a powerful artifact, but it certainly wouldn't be easy or without huge strings attached. One major problem is the "outside of fate" issue. If I recall, most ghosts, Abyssals and all Deathlords are outside of fate and shouldn't be able to use SMA to manipulate it.


It sounds like your player is just a shameless twink and wants to ruin your game. I view with disdain any player who makes up an artifact "wish list" and doesn't even have the class to keep it inside the rules.

 

[IanPrice]

Re: Artifact that allows the user to learn a sidreale martia


The key here is, no matter what you do or don't give the player, make it fit with your story and provide hooks that make the game fun. I could totally see a dagger that teaches its wielder Charcoal March of Spiders Style, for example - I'd make the wielder have dreams of a demanding sifu who forced the character to grow and develop in order to unlock the abilities, or something. Total combat badasses can be fun for everyone, as long as they're also characters with a place in the world.

 

[cordimus]

Re: Artifact that allows the user to learn a sidreale martia


Just explaining something like this via artifact is lazy deus ex-machina. In any game, players should be allowed a great amount of latitude when it comes to what they can accomplish, provided that they've put some serious thought and creativity towards the end goal. What is this artifact, who created it, why did they create it, how did they create it, how did the character get it, who else knows about this artifact, etc etc. If your player has satisfactory answers to most of these questions, then allow it. If it doesn't bug you to have an abyssal with SMA, then hey, go for it.


Out of principle allowing SMA to non-Sidereals doesn't bother me... SMA has the distinction of being among the few high-essence charm trees that have been officially printed, but high-essence celestial exalts should just be allowed to do awesome stuff. Better the charms you know, then leaving the player of a high essence exalt to draft and rationalize their own new charms.


The road needs to be interesting and if a player is going to go off and expect to do something that doesn't necessarily make sense with the system they need to offer up some effort for your troubles. From a certain perspective, it's just dots on a sheet, whether you went with an artifact or a Sifu. The question really comes down to the hows and whys and all the funky motivational things that make it interesting along the way. An artifact story line could be really interesting provided that you find a way to make it more than just dots on a character sheet - maybe his entire life is turned upside down by individuals trying to wrestle this artifact away from him... that's ten times more interesting than a mysterious Sifu who sits in Yushan waiting for the day the character hits Essence 6. Craft a story that's worth telling.

 

[Persell]

Re: Artifact that allows the user to learn a sidreale martia


It would depend on how the artifact actually teaches him. You can't say it cheapens SMA by making it "easy" before you know that. Maybe he has to cut out his own eyes to use it. Maybe he has to sacrifice the soul of a true king to power it. As long as you as the ST make the artifact, there should be no problems.

 

[IanPrice]

Re: Artifact that allows the user to learn a sidreale martia


If he wants to munch points, point out to your player that a sifu is not going to require committed essence, won't double the training time, and if kept happy might come back him up in a fight if it's for the right reasons.

 

[wordman]

Re: Artifact that allows the user to learn a sidreale martia


What style does he want to learn, by the way?

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Re: Artifact that allows the user to learn a sidreale martia

If he wants to munch points, point out to your player that a sifu is not going to require committed essence, won't double the training time, and if kept happy might come back him up in a fight if it's for the right reasons.

Of course a Sifu can have their own...interesting complications. Poor Ninja Librarian Green Sid in one of our games and her perverted old man Sifu. Fun times. Especially when he occasionally forgot that not EVERYONE can knock out an army single handedly without killing a single person...

 

[rattleingpython]

Re: Artifact that allows the user to learn a sidreale martia


He wants to get Prismatic Arrangement of Creation Style and baiscly he wants a five dot version of the dreamscape tutor. Built by his first age incarnation so when if he died his next incarnation could learn the charms without having to beg a sidreale for it.

 

[Dracogryff]

Re: Artifact that allows the user to learn a sidreale martia


Well, personally, I'd probably rule that since a Solar can't invent Sidereal (which is how it's spelled, if you please, not sidreale) Martial Arts, nor can they teach them to other Solars if they have learned them, they can't invent an artifact to teach it to them. Maybe if they conned a Sidereal into inventing it for them...but I am sure this would lead to....interesting booby traps of some sorts planted into it to, say brainwash him, or something, or alert all nearby Sidereals that someone is illegally learning their martial arts....


Yeah, I doubt that's what his first age self would want.


My $.02, for what it's worth, I remain of the opinion that if they want it, they'll have to find the Sid to get it, or spend those 5 backgrounds on getting that Gold Faction Sifu to teach it to them. *shrug*

Spoiler

And yes. Bad Sifu. Not everyone is Essence 7. In character I still don't completely get what he was trying to prove there.

:/ But hey, it allowed us to negotiate with said army instead of having to try and survive their attack, so...I'll take it.
All because I killed that other Sidereal that had been backing them by assassination. You'd think this was some sort of crime or something. Should have figured if I was studying Ebon Shadow that I'd

 

[Lord Kamina]

Re: Artifact that allows the user to learn a sidreale martia


Exanimate-Equine Battering Prana!


At first I thought this topic referred to an artifact that'd learn you learn Sidereal Martial Arts where one couldn't before, like, at all... (For DBs or Lunars, etc)


I think an N/A Artifact like that would make a very good plot point and if good fluff is provided, it'd certainly be really interesting (and canon breaking and epic and LEGEN-- WAIT FOR IT --DARY!), sort of in a "Mantle of Brigid" way...


As it stands, an "artifact so I can obviate a tutor" is just lazy and not very interesting at all.

 

[Thanqol]

Re: Artifact that allows the user to learn a sidreale martia

He wants to get Prismatic Arrangement of Creation Style and baiscly he wants a five dot version of the dreamscape tutor. Built by his first age incarnation so when if he died his next incarnation could learn the charms without having to beg a sidreale for it.

This is the most boring explanation for learning Sidereal Martial Arts ever.


I had a Lunar learn SMAs. Her entire backstory revolved around it. Trained as an Immaculate Monk, Taught Wrong On Purpose, given an entire lifetime of contradictions and lies until her brain would break in exactly the right way to start being able to comprehend the stuff she had no business comprehending.


It was a great story. And the charms and the sifu were a curse, not a boon.


EDIT: I also worry about any First Age Solar who would make plans for their death (You're saying *I* can die?), plans which assume the Usurpation happened (In the First Age, Sidereals were low-ranking chumps to Solars. He wouldn't have to beg one for training so much as say, SIDEREAL, TRAIN ME! Lot of time and effort, not to mention the security risks, for a few years of humility at the feet of a sifu for someone who is not even you)


EDIT EDIT: And if this is all so someone other than you gets a chance to learn SMA without "begging", how the heck would he go about teaching it? Would he be super nice, avoiding in any way criticising his new incarnation's flaws? Would he avoid any humility trials, even though they're standard in kung fu movies? Would he only assign tests that seem appropriately awesome, even though meditating under a fountain for a few weeks is actually necessary, lest he hurt his future incarnation's feelings?

 

[Lowkey]

Re: Artifact that allows the user to learn a sidreale martia


I wouldn't allow this kind of artifact in my games. Ever.


The most straightforward reason is because Sidereal martial arts are for Sidereals. It is arguable if another exalt type other than an Eclipse can learn these charms. (I've personally never found anything indicating whether these charms are considered simply martial arts charms, or sidereal specific charms. I opt for the latter). There's a borderline between exalts which shouldn't be broken. If you let your player have his little artifact, than be prepared to face players who want lunar shapeshifting, attribute based excellencies, spirit charms, etc.


All this rightfully, as you let the other player learn the most imba charm sets by simply giving him an artifact.


There's a difficult way of learning SMA (finding a sifu) and an easy (play a Sidereal). Your players solution seems like cheating.

 

[Synapse]

Re: Artifact that allows the user to learn a sidreale martia


Scroll of the Monk states that Solars and Abyssals can learn sidereal martial arts. The pre-requisite is to have mastered at least one celestial martial art and getting a Sidereal sifu. Eclipse and Moonshadow can also benefit from the prayerstrip enhancements.

 

[Kyeudo]

Re: Artifact that allows the user to learn a sidreale martia

Eclipse and Moonshadow can also benefit from the prayerstrip enhancements.

Only if they learned the entire style as though they were Sidereal Charms, which doubles the XP cost and adds 2 motes to each Charm's cost.

 

[Lord Kamina]

Re: Artifact that allows the user to learn a sidreale martia


Also, why the hell do people keep saying Sidereal styles are broken? Have you seen what a Solar can do at Essence 8?

 

[Plague of Hats]

Re: Artifact that allows the user to learn a sidreale martia

Also' date=' why the hell do people keep saying Sidereal styles are broken? Have you seen what a Solar can do at Essence 8?[/quote']Yes. Sidereal martial arts, as they currently stand, are borked.

 

[Lord Kamina]

Re: Artifact that allows the user to learn a sidreale martia


I see them as suffering of "incredible clusterfuck" and "terrible deisgn", but speaking purely of balance, I don't think they're too off.

 

[Lowkey]

Re: Artifact that allows the user to learn a sidreale martia


OFF:


My Sidereal character has been practicing Quicksilver Hands of Dreams style, and if not all styles, I can agree that it's broken. The martial art itself is very cool and distinctive even with exalted standards, but when you want to have a close look at game mechanics you often have a "wtf? What does this mean?" feeling.


-Quicksilver Staircase: The character is always a lucid dreamer. Ok, so? I was thinking this means the character can combat thingies that attack his dreams, but than this charm means an ultimate defense against them? (Spirits must spend essence to influence something, and Quicksilver Staircase is permanent and constant...).


-Fervent Night Phantasm: The martial artist can take total control over the victim's perception. What does that mean in game terms? Nothing. Should we take it literally? Than my character has an ultimate charm which wins him the battle if it takes effect?


-And there are Gossamer crafting charms, which I don't have an idea how to use, or what do they have to do with martial arts...


I don't really know about other styles, as I haven't seen them in play.


The Dawn in my party is who is constantly rambling that they should be the ultimate fighters, than how come the Sidereals get the "even-more-ultimate" martial arts.


/OFF

 

[Lord Kamina]

Re: Artifact that allows the user to learn a sidreale martia


Again, I insist a Dawn Caste at Essence 7 will mop the floor with a Sidereal stylist.


Solars have a charm to make people in other planes of existence spontaneously combust if they send you a letter.