Artefact costings using Moonsilver Mail

[Moonsilver]

Moonsilver Mail (no book to hand I think it is called that) is a level one artefact. It allows a Lunars armour to change with them as they change forms. Rather than go into Elsewhere.


I would say this has to be humanoid forms. You don’t’ get the armour when you change into an insect etc.


How do you calculate the artefact cost when applying to armour that is already an artefact? Is it simply Artefact 2 armour + Moonsilver Mail 1 = New Artefact Armour 3. This would be Resource cost 5.


Same for mundane armour resource costs. Resource 2 Armour + Moonsilver Mail 1 = Resource cost 3. Now this may be too cheap. But I certainly can’t see it being more than Resource cost +2.


How do you handle it?

 

[skafte]

It's Moon-faced mail, but that is just a minor thing


All the Moonsilver artifact armors change with the owner already, and I would rule that the matephysic of the other MM makings it impossible to make moon-faced orichalcum armor, let alone moon-faced powerarmors (unless there is a special power for moonsilver types, which i can't remember if there is)

 

[Fruan]

First off - Its called Moon-Faced Mail, MoEP:L page 128

I would say this has to be humanoid forms. You don’t’ get the armour when you change into an insect etc.

As written it's mundane armour, with all the shapeshifting restrictions thereof (ie, not appearing on any form it doesn't fit) with the sole exception of it also fitting your war form, growing as needed.


If you just want armour for any human form you might take, just normal mundane armour does this (MoEP:L pg 126)

How do you calculate the artefact cost when applying to armour that is already an artefact?

You don't. It explicitly says you can only do this for mundane armours. Of course, as moonsilver artifact armour changes to fit your warform anyway (MoEP:L pg 128) I can't see why you'd want to.

Same for mundane armour resource costs. Resource 2 Armour + Moonsilver Mail 1 = Resource cost 3. Now this may be too cheap. But I certainly can’t see it being more than Resource cost +2.

This is the bit that causes confusion, arguments, houserules and the shaking of fists at WW's copy editors. First off, I'd never let you just buy an artifact for resource dots, so your way strikes me as wrong wrong wrong. However, letting you get resource 5 armour for a single dot of artifact seems way too good. The way I handle it is to have characters spend the resource cost of the mundane armour, and 1 dot of artifact. I'm sure people will be along to denounce me shortly.

 

[Ker'ion]

If it's already a Level 1 Artifact, why spend Resources PLUS Artifact of 1?


Sounds a bit unfair to me.

 

[Fruan]

If it's already a Level 1 Artifact, why spend Resources PLUS Artifact of 1?
Sounds a bit unfair to me.

Well, the description just says "any mundane armour". The problem is Perfect lamellar armour at artifact 1 (instead of resources 5) is such a stupidly good deal that it makes every other artifact armour redundant. Just look at the current discussion of the corebook artifact armours - Perfect lamellar stacks up favourably with 4 or 5 dot artifacts!


I admit my way is clunky - Another option is to restrict what armours it can go on to not include exceptional or perfect specimens.

 

[skafte]

You can't make perfect moon-faced armor, so that is not an issue.


http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/inde ... =Answers13

 

[Persell]

I would say this has to be humanoid forms. You don’t’ get the armour when you change into an insect etc.

I don't see how you come to this conclusion since it seems to run contrary to the entire point of owning this artifact in the first place.

 

[Dracogryff]

What Moon-Faced Mail does is allow mundane armor (and standard mundane...fine, exceptional and perfect are out as options, as per official errata) to shift with you into your warform. Nothing else. Even Moonsilver Armor (from what I can tell) doesn't shift into animal forms...just war forms and humanoid ones. It already did go into other humanoid forms...that whole 'still fits' business.

[QUOTE="MoeP: Lunars]
Moon-faced mail is artifact armor that shifts to fit the Lunar's war form when desired. Any manner of mundane armor can be made into moon-faced mail, making it a desirable alternative to the rarer moonsilver armors.

[/QUOTE]
Emphasis mine, of course. *shrugs* It's not contrary to the artifact in question...but what it says it does, actually. In no way does it make armor shift into animal forms, nor does it even imply this is the case...which is actually another argument to the fact that I've assumed that Moonsilver armor itself only appears on humanoid and war forms...

 

[Persell]

If it's already a Level 1 Artifact, why spend Resources PLUS Artifact of 1?
Sounds a bit unfair to me.

Well, the description just says "any mundane armour". The problem is Perfect lamellar armour at artifact 1 (instead of resources 5) is such a stupidly good deal that it makes every other artifact armour redundant. Just look at the current discussion of the corebook artifact armours - Perfect lamellar stacks up favourably with 4 or 5 dot artifacts!


I admit my way is clunky - Another option is to restrict what armours it can go on to not include exceptional or perfect specimens.

Or you could just cut your players some slack and like the decent persons they are they will not exploit it.

 

[Fruan]

Or you could just cut your players some slack and like the decent persons they are they will not exploit it.

I find it interesting that you so readily ascribe causality to that.


But, yes, generally people don't actually want to abuse this. I've never had anyone seriously try to get perfect items this way. It's just that, as written, it's so broad - Even leaving aside any obvious abuses, it still doesn't mesh well with any other armour costing. Everyone I know who's read it is instantly aware of this, and it generally makes them uneasy. And in my experience, if something is so poorly balanced that you need to make sure that you aren't taking advantage of it, most players will just outright avoid using it at all. My aim in laying down very rigidly what you can and cannot do with moonfaced mail is not so much as to curb abuses in my games as it is to signal to my players that I have addressed the issue and so they need not fear making the game less fun for anyone by taking it. The structure provided by such a framework means that people are actually much more likely to want to use this option, or at least this is how it has proved so for me.


This is way way more detail than I really expected to get into - I can easily see how other groups won't work this way (So don't bother telling me yours doesn't or that mine shouldn't), and is similarly why I was so careful to phrase that part of my original answer as a "This bit is tricky, here's how *I* fixed it" answer.


I hope my foresight as to the denouncement I have since received is noted  

 

[Dracogryff]

You can't make perfect moon-faced armor, so that is not an issue.
http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/inde ... =Answers13

Kind of amused that it's still being discussed about Perfect Armors and such being takable by this after this post...Official Errata says no, folks...from John Chambers and staff at White Wolf. The effort made making an armor peerfect or exceptional or fine is instead given over to making it able to shift with you into war form. There's even an in-game explanation to why you can't use Moon-Faced Mail to get Perfect Armors as Artifact 1.


Eh...to each their own. Some people go at ambiguity and things like this like bulldogs, trying to milk it for all its worth, even if they're not bad RPers otherwise...so it really is good to have an answer for it.

 

[Persell]

Or you could just cut your players some slack and like the decent persons they are they will not exploit it.

I find it interesting that you so readily ascribe causality to that.


But, yes, generally people don't actually want to abuse this. I've never had anyone seriously try to get perfect items this way. It's just that, as written, it's so broad - Even leaving aside any obvious abuses, it still doesn't mesh well with any other armour costing. Everyone I know who's read it is instantly aware of this, and it generally makes them uneasy. And in my experience, if something is so poorly balanced that you need to make sure that you aren't taking advantage of it, most players will just outright avoid using it at all. My aim in laying down very rigidly what you can and cannot do with moonfaced mail is not so much as to curb abuses in my games as it is to signal to my players that I have addressed the issue and so they need not fear making the game less fun for anyone by taking it. The structure provided by such a framework means that people are actually much more likely to want to use this option, or at least this is how it has proved so for me.


This is way way more detail than I really expected to get into - I can easily see how other groups won't work this way (So don't bother telling me yours doesn't or that mine shouldn't), and is similarly why I was so careful to phrase that part of my original answer as a "This bit is tricky, here's how *I* fixed it" answer.


I hope my foresight as to the denouncement I have since received is noted  

So, your players don't want to abuse it, yet you put measures into place preventing them from abusing it... you would make a fine german bureaucrat  :wink:

 

[Fruan]

So, your players don't want to abuse it, yet you put measures into place preventing them from abusing it... you would make a fine german bureaucrat  :wink:

Hey, I have 5 dots in bureaucracy and a specialty in Exalted, what do you expect? :wink:

 

[Persell]

So, your players don't want to abuse it, yet you put measures into place preventing them from abusing it... you would make a fine german bureaucrat  :wink:

Hey, I have 5 dots in bureaucracy and a specialty in Exalted, what do you expect? :wink:

That you secure some editors and an index for upcoming products.

 

[Flagg]

Now, now. Can't half moons and crescent moons just get along?

 

[Fruan]

God, don't get me started on the index issue.


I was trying to look up the rules for fine, exceptional and perfect items for this very thread. Try it - it's fun!


And by fun, I mean extremely frustrating.

 

[Persell]

I've been gamemastering exalted so long, I know most of the rules without having to look.

 

[magnificentmomo]

Excellent show. Ok now Fruan it is your turn to whip out your gaming penis. Don't worry, we have all seen one before, this is just the way men settle things.

 

[Moonsilver]

Boringly back on topic, sort of:


I notice that for the standard Core for rulebook Artefact armours at level one there is no benifit from the moonsilver versions. This is because the Artefact 1 armour shown has a mobility penalty of zero.


While I don’t see this as a major issue I have decided to switch the PC’s reward to a weapon. I could boost the Artefact 1 armour stats, but then I am really making it Artefact 2 so giving that a miss.

 

[Fruan]

I've been gamemastering exalted so long, I know most of the rules without having to look.

I like to give page references when I answer questions. I makes it look slightly less like I'm just making things up  :lol:

 

[Persell]

Excellent show. Ok now Fruan it is your turn to whip out your gaming penis. Don't worry, we have all seen one before, this is just the way men settle things.

I think you misinterpreted my statement.


@fruan:


to be frank, before I use the exalted index I would write something like


"go look it up yourself you lazy fuckers"  :wink:


But I applaud your bravery.

 

[magnificentmomo]

No offense meant, just commenting on the situation. It all didn't fall on your... shoulders.