Are the immaculate Dragons actually gods?

[Flagg]

It is my opinion that this is deliberately written vaguely so that Rule One can be applied

Yes, but so are many things in the setting that they've heavily hinted a specific answer to. The Empress is the Ebon Dragon's bride. Mara is the one who taught Brigid sorcery. The Forest Witches are powered by the Yozi. The Mask of Winters is Larquen Quen. The Elemental Dragons are the third circle souls of Gaia. It's plainly true.

 

[cyl]

Which is why I strongly recommand caution when defining what the EDs are.


If the Incarnaes are children/creation of the Primordials and are indeed gods, the EDs should be gods too, as they are the children/creation of Gaia.


It's not that I don't want the EDs to be the sub souls of Gaia, it seems that the authors have changed their minds about it the 2nd ed while the other points raised by Flagg have been maintained (though the background on Quen and the fortress and the green lady has changed a bit).

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

I think my brain just turned off.

 

[cyl]

Haven't slept much these past weeks, being abundantly redundant and particularily inconsistent are side effects of the lack of sleep :mrgreen:

 

[The zombie cat]

how about this s a point to speculate on.


if the greater elemental dragons are not the component soles of gaia then what is. by her nature as a primordial she must have them.


on the matter of nomenclature.


what would be the term for the component souls of a primordial.


demon is the component soul of yosi.


gods and elementals both where created to maintain creation.


the proper term for the component soul of a free primordial has never been listed, at lest not in any book i have read.


Edward

 

[Flagg]

"Dragon"?


In Autochthonia they're called Subgods.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

And bad fucking ass. Debok Moom ftw!

 

[cyl]

IIRC there have been a few mention of sub souls in the 2e books about Primordials (no precise page ref in mind).


sidenote: only the 5 first Elementals were created. The myriad we have now are just accidental byproducts (but go tell that to Ogime or the Kukla...).


I should think that while Gaia is benevolent to Creation, she's not totally stupid and would not proclaim the identities of her subsouls as publicly as she uses the 5 EDs.


I mean it's like drawing a huge mark on various part of your body saying "weak point"... :twisted:

 

[The zombie cat]

IIRC there have been a few mention of sub souls in the 2e books about Primordials (no precise page ref in mind).
sidenote: only the 5 first Elementals were created. The myriad we have now are just accidental byproducts (but go tell that to Ogime or the Kukla...).


I should think that while Gaia is benevolent to Creation, she's not totally stupid and would not proclaim the identities of her subsouls as publicly as she uses the 5 EDs.


I mean it's like drawing a huge mark on various part of your body saying "weak point"... :twisted:

while obscuring your weaknesses is wise it can be taken to far.


with the exception of the fetich the loss of a component soul is only major inconvenience. they are also very useful tools or manipulative appendages. hiding them all would be like a soldier holding his arms behind his back so they cant be cut off.


also the other primordials where every bit as intelligent as gaia and the solars of the primordial war knew what to attack to weaken them.


Edward

 

[cyl]

Yeah but the Yozis and Neverborn never suspected that the little ants could actually work their way from their toes up to their hearts and brains and finally kill them.


Gaia and Autochton know that the exalts are able to do so.

 

[Jukashi]

I mean it's like drawing a huge mark on various part of your body saying "weak point"... :twisted:

"Weak point" is a bit of a misleading term when it's a giant superdragon made of purest transcendental fire.

 

[Flagg]

Also, if the 5ED are Gaia's souls, Pasiap is the obvious choice for fetich, and as far as being rugged, I'm sure the Elemental Dragon of Earth is no pushover.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Cyl, do you honestly think with the Solars leaving the souls be in the First Age and with how fallen the Second Age is, anyone could assault these so called 'weak points'. That's weak logic, is what it is. Think about it. Look at the Kukla, much as I hate him. He's just a Greater Earth Dragon. Not THE Earth Dragon. Pasiap could probably shit on Kukla and not blink twice while he whirls around to smack someone down with the Core of the Earth. None of them are pushovers, and I imagine 'mother,' if such a title can be given to Gaia, wouldn't be too pleased and make an appearance for a Very Special Episode of Kicking Your Ass.

 

[cyl]

I meant in the first age...


The exalts had reached the peak of their power, which is why Autochton left out of "fear", and only Gaia remained (apparently out of love for Luna... which is also one of the reason why she sided with the Incarnaes in their crazy project to kill the primordials) in Creation.


I kinda doubt that Gaia would have made her sub souls being the EDs that public.


Forgot mentionning that previously:


Gaia predates Creation, but the EDs don't (I mean you don't create Elemental Dragons before having chosen the damn elements... there could have been a dragon for Theion To if the element had been selected) so her sub souls are necessarily different from the EDs.


I mean from what I know about demons and yozis (in the 2e) and Autochton (1e), the Primordials have a definite number of souls. Kill one subsoul and the Yozi recreates one, different, kill the core soul the yozi itself changes. Kill all souls and it becomes a Neverborn.


So unless Gaia got 5 of her sub souls killed during the process of creating Creation (not totally impossible) and replaced them with the EDs... for me there is not much room left for this theory in 2e.


A bit of a contra: We don't know if they have the ability to generate new sub souls... it could be a concievable possibility for Primordials... I'll take a closer look about how Autochton created Autochtonia and if the Ministers predate Autochtonia or not.


Because if they are his sub souls... they definitely should, unless there has been a major fuck up on this book... which is still of course a possibility.


As for the EDs & the Kukla... as we have no idea of what they are and the measure of their power... the only reference I have about this are the stats of Essence 8 gods (Ocean Father, heads of bureaus daimyos etc etc and a "lesser" elemental dragon of fire)... and they can all be taken on exalts... and the kukla was supposed to be stopped by a Thousand Forged Dragon (Govioshi) in the Autochtonians book...


If they are gods... there is also a possibility that the Greater Elemental Dragons might as powerful as them (since Elemental essence can evolve on its own, but the essence of a god cannot), which would explain why the US locked the Kukla away (considering he has the raw power to completely destroy and reshape Creation on his own...).


All in all, I think this confusion is the result of the total lack of coherent thinking covered by the "golden rule" thing from the authors when they created the universe.


I also think the Kukla is seriously the worst piece of work from this game... I mean an earth elemental with the raw power to give life (wood) to Creation with his scales after having destroying it, and reforming continents... WTF ?! Not even Pasiap can do that.

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

The Ministers predate Autochthonia. They were in the Deandsor in the First Age, read Scroll of Lesser Races, Dreams of the First Age and the write up of Contentious in the back of Lords as well.


And Autochthonia is inside Autobot's body. It is him.


And your saying this a lack of coherent thought on the part of the writers is far from new.

 

[cyl]

Okay, so... the EDs can't be subsouls.


The elements were designed at the moment of Creation, the Dragons (and later the first elementals) were created to give them "life" (animation), without them the elements still exist but are static (RoGD I).


Which means the elements predate the Dragons, and also that Gaia predates the Dragons... so they can't be any subsouls of hers.


Good question: how do the elemental poles of Autochtonia work ? who/what's in charge of them ?

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

He has his own unique elements, tended by his own gods and elementals. Steam, Oil, and the like.


And honestly, the EDs, may or may not be her souls, but they do transcend God and Elemental status. I shall not argue this point anymore. This is how I see it, live with it.

 

[The zombie cat]

I mean from what I know about demons and yozis (in the 2e) and Autochton (1e), the Primordials have a definite number of souls. Kill one subsoul and the Yozi recreates one, different, kill the core soul the yozi itself changes. Kill all souls and it becomes a Neverborn.

not quite true.


the number of sub soles is not consistant


kill a sub soul and the yozi recreates it


ghost eat a sub soul and you weaken the primordial, in the fullness of time he can create a new different sub soul.


kill a fetich and you change the nature of the primordial


ghost eat a fetich and you turn a primordial into a never born.


i see no logic in the claim that creation predates the greater elemental dragons. this sounds like confusing the greater elemental dragons with the first elementals, that where destroyed at the beginning of the primordial war and there parts became the elementals of today.


the 5 elements all exist in the wild, although they don't behave consistently.


if the 5 greater elemental dragons are sub souls of gaia then i doubt any one of them is her fetich. the number of direct component souls is proportional to a primordials power. autothon, weakest of the primordials has 8, gaia will have more. as with the yozies not all her sub souls have been described, by this interpretation the greater elemental gragons are the component souls gaia has chosen to show and use to advance her aims.and it would be intelligent to make the fetich one of the hidden ones.


Edward

 

[Heaven's Thunder Hammer]

Well after skimming this thread (more to read later) I can see I asked a very important question that has important ramifications... Ones that need sorted out. Thanks guys!

 

[cyl]

i see no logic in the claim that creation predates the greater elemental dragons.

Careful a greater elemental dragon of earth is the Kukla, Pasiap is THE Elemental Dragon of Earth.


That aside, Creation doesn't predate the EDs, they both must have been created at the same time.


They necessarily do not predate the elements, which means that they as spiritual beings have been created for the purpose of animating the specific element assigned to them (which is their main purpose... rather godly) and maintaint Creation and protect it from falling back to the Wyld.


As the elements were not chosen by the Primordials before Creation was made, the EDs could not have been created.

this sounds like confusing the greater elemental dragons with the first elementals, that where destroyed at the beginning of the primordial war and there parts became the elementals of today.

And why is it that Gaia gave the secrets of creating new beings of pure essence to the Incarnaes ?


Why did the first lifeforms they created took charge of the Elements in place of the Dragons who then could finally rest (after eons of service) ?


My take on this is simple, as the EDs are slacking whenever they can in the Second Age, and I can easily picture them trying to slack back in the First, crying to mommy for a goddamn break, so mommy gave the Incarnaes the power to create the elementals so that the kids could take a nap.

the 5 elements all exist in the wild, although they don't behave consistently.

Hmmm... the wyld's not exactly like this... everything exists can possibly be found in it (some even argue that Oblivion could only come from it). But it's only within Creation that the essence stays stable thanks to the elemental poles.
In the end, do you sincerely think that Gaia would have created 5 Elemental Dragons before the elements for Creation were chosen (doesn't make any kind of sense to me... you don't buy bullets if you don't own a gun...) or that out of pure luck some sub souls of Gaia just happened to be exactly elementally aspected just fit for Creation's element ?!


Because these are the only two possibilities I can see for a "coherent" justification for the sub soul theory.


CW: we agree on the fact that the EDs do transcend god / lesser elemental dragon status, they could even be more powerful than the Incarnaes.

 

[Haku1]

Or perhaps the elements, the core 5, were based on -her- subsoul elements. In which case, they predate Creation. And which is why Gaia rejected the acidic element as it wasn't part of her and she was one of the ones what made Creation...

 

[cyl]

Well that could of course be a possibility.


But Gaia isn't the only Primordial who built Creation, there were various other implicated in the process, and the probability of the lucky coincidence between the elements of Gaia and the elements of Creation is rather thin... (the elements do exist without their Dragons).


As the Prims created the Incarnae and the gods, as well as the other forces they would be responsible for, first the Elemental Dragons werer created by Gaia, then the Elementals were created by the Incarnaes to perform a certain function.


I mean the "good" light (as opposed to Ligier's Green one) existed in the wyld before the US, but it was when he was born that it shone over Creation.

 

[Kyeudo]

Gaia and Autochthon did most of the work building Creation itself, so I imagine they managed to get alot of say about what they based their elements on.

 

[Haku1]

Gaia, Autochton, and presumably Cytherea, the mother of Creation (not to be confused with the Endless Desert).

 

[cyl]

Crap, I was searching in the DotFA book references for the origins of Creation... there's not much there


Anyway, yes those 3 were the more active during the process of building Creation, but some other made propositions (Theion To from Malfeas) all in all it was a common project with 3 main designers


A bit more on the First Elementals from the corebook p.300:

These five were living embodiments of the principles of the elements, and their
primary purpose was to maintain the natural order of Creation. These elementals were of a stature that rivaled the Elemental Dragons in power, who tread the length and breadth of the world in a day and manage all the aspects of the functioning Creation.

Surprisingly they were not created by Gaia but by the Incarnae , following her teachings, but nevertheless pure creations.