Heaven's Thunder Hammer
Member
Just realized that I"ve never been sure of this... Who are the DB's actually worshipping when the speak of the Immaculate Dragons?
Are the immaculate Dragons actually gods?
- Thread starter Heaven's Thunder Hammer
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MrMephistopheles
Member
I can't remember off hand if they definitively said that there actually were DB's whose legends eventually over time mixed in their story with the Five Elemental Dragons or if they're just myths. But the names actually apply to the Five Elemental Dragons so ultimately that is who they are praying to.
Alright, kids, time for a cosmology lesson!
The Five Elemental Dragons are real people! Sort of. See, they were never people. They are the great elemental dragons (literal dragons, not figurative), component souls of Gaia (this is why their Exaltations were of such differing nature from those of the Incarnae; they are not 'gods'). They really did bring about the first Dragon-blooded. And they still exist. The Dragon of Water swims the great Western seas to this day, and so on, and so forth. They answer prayers and everything.
The names of the Dragons are the ones used in the texts. Sextes Jylis, for example, is the most powerful force of the Wood element. However, the Dragons are not elementals. Elementals were created by the Dragons. Key difference.
The Five Elemental Dragons are real people! Sort of. See, they were never people. They are the great elemental dragons (literal dragons, not figurative), component souls of Gaia (this is why their Exaltations were of such differing nature from those of the Incarnae; they are not 'gods'). They really did bring about the first Dragon-blooded. And they still exist. The Dragon of Water swims the great Western seas to this day, and so on, and so forth. They answer prayers and everything.
The names of the Dragons are the ones used in the texts. Sextes Jylis, for example, is the most powerful force of the Wood element. However, the Dragons are not elementals. Elementals were created by the Dragons. Key difference.
The zombie cat
Member
While brickwall is correct it is not the entire truth.
The immaculate religion teaches that the 5 immaculate dragons where the greatest dragon blooded heroes, I can’t recall weather they where the first dragon blooded, those that first overthrew the anathema or both, there puissance was so great that they effectively became gods, immortal, able to respond to prayers and distant to the world. The reality is that these individuals are almost entirely works of fiction but they have the same names as the greater elemental dragons and the rituals of worship are such that the prayers for the immaculate dragons are received by the greater elemental dragons, and answered with frequency enough to uphold the claims.
Edward
The immaculate religion teaches that the 5 immaculate dragons where the greatest dragon blooded heroes, I can’t recall weather they where the first dragon blooded, those that first overthrew the anathema or both, there puissance was so great that they effectively became gods, immortal, able to respond to prayers and distant to the world. The reality is that these individuals are almost entirely works of fiction but they have the same names as the greater elemental dragons and the rituals of worship are such that the prayers for the immaculate dragons are received by the greater elemental dragons, and answered with frequency enough to uphold the claims.
Edward
Flagg
The Most Electrifying Man in Sports Entertainment
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Fair Folk don't have a chance against the Realm defense grid. It's the single factor that turned them back from a near-total victory over Creation at the end of the Shogunate.
Quchu
One Thousand Club
I get this feeling that you are posting this to the wrong thread.Flagg said:
Flagg
The Most Electrifying Man in Sports Entertainment
ops:
Arthur
One Thousand Club
So lemme see if I got this:
- The Elemental Dragons are big dragon-like things living in the elemental poles who still inhabit Creation. They are the component souls of Gaia and they don't answer prayers. Some are sleeping.
- The Immaculate Dragons are not dragon-ish at all, but were the first Dragon-Blooded. They were created by the Elemental Dragons and eventually became gods who are also not elementals. They still inhabit Creation and are all awake. They answer prayers.
Haku1
Ze Hamster of Lurkdom
The immaculate dragons in the IO texts aren't real. They're based on dragonblooded mythology created by the IO that are based partly on the Elemental Dragons and on heroic Dragonblooded in the First Age... think of them as canonized saints in the christian faith.
Arthur
One Thousand Club
Got it.
cyl
Creepy smile
No no no... unless you find a precise reference in the books about the EDs being the component souls of Gaia (I have searched and haven't), they are just her children (like the First Elementals were the children of the Incarnae) and they are just spirits, lords of the terrestrial bureaucracy.
The sub souls thing dates back from a suggestion made in 1e the Autochtonians and has been apparently been abandoned in the second edition.
I have searched through the books and have found various references in which the Elemental Dragons are refered to as "gods".
It should be noted that unlike "spirit" (which includes elementals, ghosts, gods, and demons), "god" is a rather precise term.
Here are a few:
Corebook
p.16: The offspring of Gaia, the Elemental Dragons are the lords of the Terrestrial Bureaucracy, responsible for overseeing its hierarchy of spirits. Like most gods, the Dragons have become decadent and self-absorbed in the time since the end of the First Age.
p.29: The Five Elemental Dragons are her (Gaia) offspring.
RoGD:I
p.6: lexicon: Jylis; the five greatest of the Terrestrial gods and rulers of the Terrestrial Bureaucracy.
p.9: In the time before the war, she (Gaia) had aided them in their creation of the five great elementals. In the
war’s aftermath, she woke her children and creations, the Five Elemental Dragons.
p.21: The Five Elemental Dragons are Mela, Pasiap, Hesiesh, Daana’d and Sextes Jylis. The most potent
gods in Creation, the Five Elemental Dragons rest atop the Terrestrial Bureaucracy.
same page: Similar to the Incarnae and the greatest of demons, the Five Elemental Dragons are not limited to one location.
Now this one can be interpreted differently. I read it as they have the same ability that the Incarnae and 3rd circle demons have... doesn't mean the Incarnae are sub souls to anyone...
More to come as I search the other books.
Until someone finds at least two page references on the sub soul thing about the EDs and Gaia... I'll continue to counter the false idea of them being component souls of Gaia.
To get back on topic, the Immaculate Dragons and Elemental Dragons are exactly the same beings.
The Immaculate Dragons are the myth created around the Elemental Dragons to revere them, and inspire mortals towards perfection.
When praying to the ID, people are actually praying to the ED, which is why they have the same name...
And Elementals were NOT created by the Dragons, they were created by the Incarnae, filled with the desire to create powerful life forms by themselves, and Gaia helped them (as she had given birth to/created the 5 EDs). Those were killed during the Primordial Wars, their essences shattered, and from those bits and pieces, the elementals were born.
The lesser elemental dragons are said to be the children of the 5EDs because the EDs liked the respect the lesser elemental dragons had shown them when adopting their form as they developped their essence, and they declared them "adopted children" to free the poor elementals of the servitude they were undergoing. (Yu Shan, p.13)
Class dismissed, I'm expecting all of your essays on the nature of Gaia by the end of the week :lol:
The sub souls thing dates back from a suggestion made in 1e the Autochtonians and has been apparently been abandoned in the second edition.
I have searched through the books and have found various references in which the Elemental Dragons are refered to as "gods".
It should be noted that unlike "spirit" (which includes elementals, ghosts, gods, and demons), "god" is a rather precise term.
Here are a few:
Corebook
p.16: The offspring of Gaia, the Elemental Dragons are the lords of the Terrestrial Bureaucracy, responsible for overseeing its hierarchy of spirits. Like most gods, the Dragons have become decadent and self-absorbed in the time since the end of the First Age.
p.29: The Five Elemental Dragons are her (Gaia) offspring.
RoGD:I
p.6: lexicon: Jylis; the five greatest of the Terrestrial gods and rulers of the Terrestrial Bureaucracy.
p.9: In the time before the war, she (Gaia) had aided them in their creation of the five great elementals. In the
war’s aftermath, she woke her children and creations, the Five Elemental Dragons.
p.21: The Five Elemental Dragons are Mela, Pasiap, Hesiesh, Daana’d and Sextes Jylis. The most potent
gods in Creation, the Five Elemental Dragons rest atop the Terrestrial Bureaucracy.
same page: Similar to the Incarnae and the greatest of demons, the Five Elemental Dragons are not limited to one location.
Now this one can be interpreted differently. I read it as they have the same ability that the Incarnae and 3rd circle demons have... doesn't mean the Incarnae are sub souls to anyone...
More to come as I search the other books.
Until someone finds at least two page references on the sub soul thing about the EDs and Gaia... I'll continue to counter the false idea of them being component souls of Gaia.
To get back on topic, the Immaculate Dragons and Elemental Dragons are exactly the same beings.
The Immaculate Dragons are the myth created around the Elemental Dragons to revere them, and inspire mortals towards perfection.
When praying to the ID, people are actually praying to the ED, which is why they have the same name...
And Elementals were NOT created by the Dragons, they were created by the Incarnae, filled with the desire to create powerful life forms by themselves, and Gaia helped them (as she had given birth to/created the 5 EDs). Those were killed during the Primordial Wars, their essences shattered, and from those bits and pieces, the elementals were born.
The lesser elemental dragons are said to be the children of the 5EDs because the EDs liked the respect the lesser elemental dragons had shown them when adopting their form as they developped their essence, and they declared them "adopted children" to free the poor elementals of the servitude they were undergoing. (Yu Shan, p.13)
Class dismissed, I'm expecting all of your essays on the nature of Gaia by the end of the week :lol:
Flagg
The Most Electrifying Man in Sports Entertainment
The Elemental Dragons are the component souls of Gaia in the same way the Empress is the future bride of the Ebon Dragon: It's not really stated explictly, but it should be beyond obvious to anyone who is paying attention.
The closest I'm aware of to the books outright stating that the 5EDs are her souls is the 1E Autochthonians book, which compares the Subgods of Autochthon directly to them in the context of the former being Third Circle souls.
I'm sure someone who has a more thorough memory of the texts can come up with more.
The closest I'm aware of to the books outright stating that the 5EDs are her souls is the 1E Autochthonians book, which compares the Subgods of Autochthon directly to them in the context of the former being Third Circle souls.
I'm sure someone who has a more thorough memory of the texts can come up with more.
cyl
Creepy smile
Here's what I found when searching through the autochtonians book:
p.17: The Celestines and the greatest souls of Gaia created this army of Exalted, but had no weapons to
equip the vast host.
p.163: In their own way, the eight subgods (Divine Ministers) are the equals of Creation’s most powerful gods, and the least of them is the equal of one of the Five Elemental Dragons.
So the first could be a mistake from the author, and the second isn't that clear.
Some elements of the background have changed since the first edition.
In the second edition for example we know nothing of the origins of soulsteel. We just know that Autochton knew its uses, and that in the First Age it was rarely used, but existed. Until there is more info revealed about how soulsteel came to life, is it safe to assume that the authors will just copy / paste the 1st edition explanation for soulsteel ?!
I don't know.
Same thing goes for the sub soul thing, except that the authors have made it clear (for me at least) that in the second edition, the EDs are indeed the children of Gaia, but are actually gods.
p.17: The Celestines and the greatest souls of Gaia created this army of Exalted, but had no weapons to
equip the vast host.
p.163: In their own way, the eight subgods (Divine Ministers) are the equals of Creation’s most powerful gods, and the least of them is the equal of one of the Five Elemental Dragons.
So the first could be a mistake from the author, and the second isn't that clear.
Some elements of the background have changed since the first edition.
In the second edition for example we know nothing of the origins of soulsteel. We just know that Autochton knew its uses, and that in the First Age it was rarely used, but existed. Until there is more info revealed about how soulsteel came to life, is it safe to assume that the authors will just copy / paste the 1st edition explanation for soulsteel ?!
I don't know.
Same thing goes for the sub soul thing, except that the authors have made it clear (for me at least) that in the second edition, the EDs are indeed the children of Gaia, but are actually gods.
Arthur
One Thousand Club
The word god doesn't have to refer to the class of spirits. The Exalted are called god-kings all the time and they are not gods.
cyl
Creepy smile
Oh but it does.
Terminology is everything, and when you're sloppy, that's when confusion comes
Incarnaes are gods, little gods are gods, from what the 2nd ed tells me the 5EDs are gods, ghosts are ghosts, demons are demons and elementals are elementals... and each and every one of them is a spirit.
Those titles can be of course usurped for obvious purposes (god kings, or false gods -> lunar cults).
But an interesting question would be... can a god be a sub soul of a Primordial, or is a sub soul a different being by nature, but with similar powers to a god ?
Another would be on the origins of the Incarnaes of course.
Terminology is everything, and when you're sloppy, that's when confusion comes
Incarnaes are gods, little gods are gods, from what the 2nd ed tells me the 5EDs are gods, ghosts are ghosts, demons are demons and elementals are elementals... and each and every one of them is a spirit.
Those titles can be of course usurped for obvious purposes (god kings, or false gods -> lunar cults).
But an interesting question would be... can a god be a sub soul of a Primordial, or is a sub soul a different being by nature, but with similar powers to a god ?
Another would be on the origins of the Incarnaes of course.
Flagg
The Most Electrifying Man in Sports Entertainment
Fixed.cyl said:Terminology is everything, and when you're sloppy WW editors, that's when confusion comes
cyl
Creepy smile
That was naturally implied :lol:
JadedSmile
New Member
it used to be the case where they stated that the Dragon blooded were not as powerful because they came from elementals, not from gods... but that might have been in first edition, and I can't be sure of the exact wording. The devil is in the details and they seem to have changed some other aspects of the elemental dragons in second edition anyhow.
The zombie cat
Member
Ok its a first ed source but the settings definition of god hasn't changedcyl said:
the 8 divine ministers are the component souls of autothon and are consistently referred to as gods.
Edward
cyl
Creepy smile
There were not much references as to what the ED's were in the first edition... so to me this 8 sub soul god thing could only be a major screw up of the first edition.
In 2nd edition things are clearer, and we haven't have seen anything about sub souls being gods yet. We know that Gaia has sub souls (twenty or so IIRC but I may be wrong) because that's the way Primordials work, but we still know nothing about them. Same goes for the Divine Ministers.
In 2nd edition things are clearer, and we haven't have seen anything about sub souls being gods yet. We know that Gaia has sub souls (twenty or so IIRC but I may be wrong) because that's the way Primordials work, but we still know nothing about them. Same goes for the Divine Ministers.
Cthulhu_Wakes
Black Sun in a White World
Sub-souls aren't 'gods'. Read the demon book for a lesson on sub-souls. The Immaculate Dragons are human embodiments of the Five Elemental Dragons. They don't really jive with anything else. If they were five DBs, whoop-de-fuckin'-do. There were more powerful and older DBs in the First Age. And there are no five progenitors of the DB aspects either, so they're just humanized and acceptable (politically) versions of the Elemental Pole Dragon guardians.
Jukashi
Four Thousand Club
Isn't there also reference, somewhere in the Immaculate Faith description (I think it was when they were talking about the difference between the Immaculate and Elemental Dragons) that the Elemental Dragons are the cornerstones, if you will, of Creation? There was an analogy about wagons and wheels, and it implied that Creation wouldn't really be Creation any more without them. Various descriptions I've read seem to indicate towards the Elemental Dragons being embodiments or incarnations of their respective elements, rather than overseers (which would make them gods) or simply being made of that element (which would make them elementals).
The whole one-and-the-same thing - the elemental dragons actually both being their element, and actual dragon-shaped things, at once - seems to me to be more associated with primordial beings than with any other kind of spirit. It's like how Malfeas is a city and a dude at the same time. And that, in turn, would make them more likely to be Gaia's souls.
In truth, though, the books are deliberately designed to let a Storyteller decide which they prefer, so it's really a matter of personal taste.
The whole one-and-the-same thing - the elemental dragons actually both being their element, and actual dragon-shaped things, at once - seems to me to be more associated with primordial beings than with any other kind of spirit. It's like how Malfeas is a city and a dude at the same time. And that, in turn, would make them more likely to be Gaia's souls.
In truth, though, the books are deliberately designed to let a Storyteller decide which they prefer, so it's really a matter of personal taste.
Mempo
New Member
It is my opinion that this is deliberately written vaguely so that Rule One can be applied - the Storyteller has final say on what the Immaculate Dragons/Elemental Dragons are, and it can go either way according to the needs of the chronicle.
If a plot point hinges on the ST saying one way or the other, you don't want a sentence in the rulebook a player can point to and say, 'you are wrong wrong wrong and now we can use my plan!' (which, honestly, they shouldn't be doing anyway, but some people are dicks)
That said, if the ED aren't Gaia's sub-souls, what are? Are there bigger, meaner Elemental Dragons tucked away somewhere that haven't ever been seen? Or are the Celestial Incarnae - Luna, UCS, the Maidens, etc. - themselves her sub-souls?
Edit: Jukashi said it better, and simpler, than I. Pray disregard my ramblings.
If a plot point hinges on the ST saying one way or the other, you don't want a sentence in the rulebook a player can point to and say, 'you are wrong wrong wrong and now we can use my plan!' (which, honestly, they shouldn't be doing anyway, but some people are dicks)
That said, if the ED aren't Gaia's sub-souls, what are? Are there bigger, meaner Elemental Dragons tucked away somewhere that haven't ever been seen? Or are the Celestial Incarnae - Luna, UCS, the Maidens, etc. - themselves her sub-souls?
Edit: Jukashi said it better, and simpler, than I. Pray disregard my ramblings.
Cthulhu_Wakes
Black Sun in a White World
You guys don't seem to recall what gods are in the setting. The Incarnae are not her sub souls. At all. They're gods, made by the Primordials to govern Creation. They're glorified janitors. They're not subsouls.
