Are The 2.5 Anima Effects Unbalanced?

Here's an Idea for Twilight Anima got it by thinking about the No Moon Anima (who reduce the cost in motes of sorcery actions, this was even before sorcery was invented)... twilights are supposed to be the "Greatest sorcerers in creation", this is explained by their ability to use Solar Circle sorcery, but not just twilights can do that any solar can and so can Lunar and Sidereal Akuma can as well... so why not allow them double their Essence to determine the potency of their spells effects (which you normally can never add anything to because of the limitations inbuilt on sorcery) Example: for Death by Obsidian Butterflies you'd roll (Perception+ Occult) adding a number of additional successes equal to TWICE the Sorcerer's essence... I know it may be a bit strong as a whole but seeing as even trying sorcery is risky and costly, I see no reason why it wouldn't work.


One more detail I seem to have noticed that no-one else has mentioned: the New Dawn Anima has one itsy bitsy all too important detail added to it: Immune to any and all fear effect no matter how powerful the being using it is, be it an unshaped Raksha, a Deathlord or Malfeas himself, the Dawn just looks at him and says "quit growling at me like that you big wuss" which makes them immune to a few Abyssal charm effects... and Abyssals were in part designed to fight against the Solars as equals but with this anima effect the advantage suddenly just shifted back to the Solars, I mean where solars had Holy effects Abyssals had Badass Fear effects as I recall (not quite sure I haven't snooped though my abyssaal book in a while but I do recall they had good fear related things) Like say Dread Lord's demeanor and it's upgrade Heart stomping mien, bam Anima power active! you can wail on the guy that just wasted one will and a few Motes just to give you pause without anything to stop you and it only cost you 5 m or using peripheral in stead of personal. Or Resplendent Shadow Blade, the Mirror to Glorious Solar saber (which does holy aggravated damage), normally it causes a horror (fear) effect that potentially drains Will or essence from it's target, BUT: DAWN ANIMA POWER ACTIVATE! Immune to that effect! The Abyssal is not immune to the Holy damage from the dawn's sword though... Anyway all that to say that sometimes it's that little things that do all the difference... I mean it makes sens that the dawn would be fearless, but to the point of it overshadowing all magically enhanced terrors?
 
I personally really like the Solars new anima effects. I've played a Twilight caste for half a year now and we're only just changed to 2.5 last month. In 2.0 i sort of became the groups best fighter because of a mix of a high armor and Twilight Castes anima effect witch gives a soak like in Scion. I use the essence sight part of the new one all the time, stunting it to see through walls sort like heat-vision and things like that. I haven't come upon an illusionist yet but it'll happen and i find the charm/spell-reading thing useful with my countermagic and good against dumb social charms that sets my own teammates against me. It could be cool if it helped me crafting to, but i don't really need that as per so. If we kept the old one in 2.5 then with a good enough armor then it'd be a almost certain perfect defense for 5 motes instead of 8. That'd be silly.
 
In my campaign our Eclipse really got to shine once. We once got into a trial in an Elemental Court because of our No Moon being a bit of a re-re. Our Eclipse took the role of a lawyer and defended him. They could not harm us no matter how angry they were and he fired like 4 oaths off to make sure that everything was done proper. It was pretty cool until an annoying demon screwed us up a bit with his silver tongue.
 
See? Once. Once a campaign. How many times are the others allowed to shine or be useful? And that's not counting the ability to learn non-Solar charms, which is arguably among the coolest parts of the anima?
 
Well our Eclipse has shone lots of time though. So much that he was given the title 'The Center of Attention'. He has used his Oath several times to make sure that we wouldn't get backstabbed by our GM's always very untrustworthy NPCs. As for charms he bought from other Exalt trees, i think he only ever bought the Perfect Gamble dragon-blood charm to spite our Changing Moon Lunar. I countered that with the new Twilight Caste anima effect once and had him leave the table though. That was hilarious.
 
Well, fair enough. Honestly, I do feel like Eclipse is the one Caste that's the most challenging to play. They're the one caste that doesn't fit the traditional heroic archetypes well. That don't-fit quality works very well at describing them. I mean, honestly, they're the caste most defined (on average) by their favored choices (of the Solars). Mostly because unless you're in a high-mobility campaign, or a grand-scale sociopolitical campaign, Eclipses rarely get much use of their Caste Abilities (at least in my experience). I think the most-used Eclipse Caste Ability Charm of all time (for me) was probably Sagacious Reading of Intent.
 
For some reason I felt like rising the zombie thread...


So, here's my take.


Burning bodies is more the perfect assassin's tool than the priest's... -_-


DAWN


Permanent: Instinctively understand how to use ANYTHING that's built to be a weapon.


1m: Reflexively ready a weapon or switch from one weapon to another.


Flare/5m: Add your enemy's Essence to your attack dice pool.


ZENITH


Permanent: +1 sux to Prayer rolls.


1m: The character or someone in her sight gets an auto suxx on a Virtue roll.


Flare/5m: All attacks become Holy.


TWILIGHT


Permanent: Instinctively understand the main intended purpose of an artefact.


1m: +Ess/2 to both MDVs


Flare/5m: Add Ess/2 to Ess and Occult to calculate Spell Effects


NIGHT (unchanged)


Active: Silence Essence Display.


5m: Add Ess/2 to Stealth rolls.


Flare: Be unrecognizable.


ECLIPSE (switch Active and Flare effects?)


Permament: Learn alien charms.


1m: Sanctify Oath.


Flare/5m: Invoke diplomatic immunity.


Both the 1 mote and the 5 motes effects can be activated as a reflexive action.


IME, using the Eclipse power requires a ST that lets social interaction be important.


Most ST feel that they are challenging the players enough only if things are resolved with a combat.


Diplomacy is assumed to be "the easy way out".
 
good Ideas in theme, well except the dawn, it seems to me that though it's still related to combat, what you've put there takes away from their role as the greatest generals creation has ever seen... I see a few little issues elsewhere though. Gonna comment on everything anyway, both good points and bad.


Dawn:


Permanent: I like this one, you grab some weird Fair Folk made blob that you guess is supposed to be a weapon because it's in the armory... and the moment you pick it up. you don't think anymore, you KNOW, and this is gonna be sweet revenge on those chaotic bastards!


1m effect... wasn't there a charm that already did that and also gave you more or less limitless weapon elsewhere storage? (Not sure and too lazy to check through 10 books and 200+ charms at the moment)


Flare/5m... the stronger your opponent is the easier it is to hit him? that just seems wrong... I know Dawn Solars are meant to destroy super big bads like Devas/3rd circle demons, but wouldn't this also make them a bigger threat towards the Incarnae? Don't they already have Behemoth Slaying Attitude for that anyway? and at the same time it kinda makes them less effective at doing the whole "Lone hero against an army of thousands" thing (or even at being a general for that matter). the Flare effect should at the very least have something that helps against armies... the only real problem with the 2.5 version of this that I had was the whole "No fear effect work at all" problem...though 3 DV that goes over the 2X maximum for charms basically for free (if you don't care about being seen and recognize as Anathema) is a bit much, but eh you gotta give the poor dawns something to explain their role as Fighters to compensate for their redundant Cast abilities (you only need Melee OR MA, and Archery OR Thrown not both, then again there is always the visual appeal factor if you WANT all 4 xD ). that and I liked that Dawns were just plain intimidating, an intimidating demeanor can REALLY help in a fight! (I've seen it work really well in LARPs, 6' tall guys in full plate don't get attacked all that often unless it's like 5+ against 1, and even then they hesitate and attack slowly and don't get too close... even if the guy in full plate isn't all that good a fighter)


Zenith: though mostly thematically fitting you made their abilities somewhat weak or redundant... also remember that the whole "Burning the bodies" this is more than just that, it's also a "Go directly to your next life, and have no chance whatsoever of becoming a ghost or having your body raised... I mean this trick is the only thing that could stop Ma-Ha-Zuchi from becoming a Deathlord should someone decide to put him down before he expands and starts being a real problem for more than just a "small" corner of the threshold! And technically it also stops semi-random mortals you kill from coming back as an Abyssal and take revenge... (did that to my players once... they killed someone just because they weren't up their standards of beauty, Ok I described the character as being so Ugly it was scary, but still no reason to kill em... (the problem didn't solve itself after becoming a Deathknight xD ) the day that character revealed themselves for who they were my players learned: their actions have consequences... AND : Karma's a Bitch ain't it?)


Permanent: Zeniths already have this just for being Priests... well technically it's a difficulty reduction of 1 but same thing


1m: this is nice... it just doesn't fit the theme of Solars, they are supposed to steal/grab the spotlight, not give it to others, that's the Siderials and DB's thing... even the Solar's war charms that make his soldiers stronger are really just a means to glorify himself for being their leader...


Flare/5m... this one is both too strong and too weak... it's too strong because holy charms are usually expensive or one shot, even Blazing Solar Bolt has a 1 WP cost... and too weak because of well, Glorious Solar Saber does that but better...


Twilight:


Permanent: this works... just need to specify that understanding what it's for doesn't mean you know how it works xD (ran into that problem with one of my players a few times)


1m: this one is also good, only it should only work against Illusions like the errata version though... Being the "Smart guy" shouldn't help you against emotional effects or in social situations


Flare/5m: hey! this is my Idea! how can I say anything against this? thanks for approving of it! (and readjusting it to fit better)


Eclipse:


1m: errmm... wasn't sanctifying oaths a 10m +1Wp action, making it cheaper would be a grave mistake! though all things considered removing its "free when I flare" aspect is a good Idea. I mean it may not seem it but this ability is freakishly powerful... especially if you have a hand of the mountain at your disposal after someone breaks an oath...*Squish* not to mention long term effects this unique ability can have, it basically guarantees someone will act in a certain way permanently... this ability is Scary... in fact most of the players I've had are outright terrified of it, only one of them EVER wants to shake hands with anybody, Guess which one...


Flare/5m... this one I like, you have to show your credentials to have diplomatic immunity, seems fitting!


You know, if we keep working on this, we may just end up with something truly balanced and usable
 
DAWN


The 1m effect is indeed the same as Elegant Dance of Bow and Blade.


But that's a charm that only Dawns really need, and all of them need it, as it is the first step to make their abilities a bit less redundant.


Still, spending 1m to ignore any fear-based effect could also do.


The "Lone hero against army of thousands" is something that pretty much any Exalt can do already.


A Dawn doesn't need any special bonus to wipe a mortal-led army single-handedly.


Still, the enemy Essence bonus applies in Mass Combat normally.


Better than anyone else, they can lead mortal armies against the Yozis.


ZENITH


I know that you burn the bodies to send them to Lethe, but can't help but thing that it is a very clean way to get rid of a body.


Zenith are leaders, heroes, paragons and champions: everything they do inspires those around them in the name of the God of the Four Virtues, and they can use the power on themselves.


Yes, the Permanent thing is that they are Priests.


Regarding the Holy... You can Holy Punch darkness in the face!


And frankly, it's nicer than just adding numerical bonuses.


TWILIGHT


Why should the power be limited to unnatural deception? Investigation is a Caste ability, and for a reason.


ECLIPSE


The power is used so seldom that the '10 motes + 1 wp' is just to give it the appropriate drama.


Further, it would really, really, really suck if you had the opportunity to seal a deal and couldn't do it because you are outta motes.
 
Sorry in advance for being so Long winded I just like being thorough in my reasoning when I explain things... Also I'm aware that you probably know most of these things but like I said: Thorough...


Dawn


well it is true that the 1m power you suggested would reduce the redundancy of their caste abilities... but I'm still of the opinion that you shouldn't make anima powers from things that can easily be replaced by a Charm, since someone who isn't that caste could just arrive and say "oh how nice that your caste allows you to do that, how nice for you... but, I can do it too" (same problem applies to Zenith Holy Flare)


As I've mentioned in my earlier post, the "No Fear effect can work at all" is unbalancing due to the fact that Abyssals mostly get Fear driven effects in stead of Holy charms, and that the Solars and Abyssals are supposed to be EXACTLY as powerful as one an other but opposed, and with a few thematic changes... Immune to all fear just gives too much of an advantage to the Solars (well actually removes a few Abyssal Advantages that make them equal to the Lawgivers)


As for the Accuracy bonus, the Idea itself isn't bad, but the mechanics is somewhat off... Like I said: "the stronger you are the easier it is for me to hit you" just seems off, think about it this way: two dawns fight each other they both have the same amount of exp, one of them took way too many charms, and the other focused of increasing his essence to get stronger ones... when they do start fighting each other the one with Weaker Essence has a Clear advantage over the other just because of that power... if that power wasn't there it would be a contest of Variety Vs. raw Power and on that I'd say flip a coin to figure out who wins (probably better chances for the Higher essence one though)...


Also you kinda turned a Defensive bonus into an offensive one, Dawns have always had some form of extra protection given to them from their anima, they really can use it (at the very least to avoid using Perfect defenses a bit more often)... for offense though there are plenty of charms to help them there, even just excellencies can easily double their dice pool for more or less free (well commit a bunch then every other use if free)... it's true though that something has to be done about the 2.5 Dawn anima, it is a bit too much for too little a cost...though perhaps an in between could be done, a standard "scary guy" defense bonus, and perhaps a slight non-variable bonus if you're fighting someone "Bigger" than you


Zenith


you're right that the "give a Suxx" to an ally does seem to fit with the whole inspirational thing, but it seems to me that that power works way too much like a DB charm, or a Siddie Anima... but this power seems designed to work on individuals, where the Zenith's big thing is inspiring crowds and this power gives no advantage whatsoever there... with this you're sorta limiting them to only helping their circle, who in theory shouldn't even NEED this kind of help to begin with, seeing as they are supposed to be Solars


I have to agree that just numerical bonuses are boring... but adding Holy to all attacks is really just useful for Martial Arts and if you wanted Holy Martial Arts why not just learn a Holy Style? like say the Golden Janissary Style, which is terrestrial level... Easy enough to use it as a base to make a Celestial equivalent... and let's face it it's way too easy for a Solar to use charms to duplicate this effect... then again the "Original" version did give a bonus hard (not impossible) to get elsewhere: increased Minimum damage against CoD, as a bonus it stacks with any similar effects... this gives me an Idea add the Holy keyword to hit CoDs with Aggravated Dmg, and if the attack in question is already Holy then it gives some Extra bonus... like say the target CoD has to do a Valor or Willpower Roll or run away from the ultra Holy Priest in his face? or maybe just added damage... an other factor in deciding this effect should be, What do Abyssals and Infernals get as an equivalent? they can't get Holy... so what? Remove the Holy keyword from any effect attacking them? Making CoDs so easily immune to Holy seems wrong...


Twilight


well I can't really argue that with Integrity as a Caste ability the MDV bonus does seem to fit, but to make it work against everything for a fraction of the usual cost is just wrong... the usual cost being Excellencies, in general 1 MDV should cost 2 motes (if using the second excellency) or 1 mote for a little under 50% chance to get a +1 (for first Excellency) or at best +3 for 4m (3rd Excellency), what you're suggesting is 1m for a minimum of +1, but +2 as soon as you hit essence 3 (say like when you start) and +3 at essence 5 which ignores maximums from charms and stacks with any charms used... that and Mental and Social effects are already hard enough to get to work unless you go up against someone mentally weak, due to the fact that MDV is derived from 3 stats, one of which can go up to 10 at the start, and that most mental/social effect charms only use 1 attribute + 1 Ability with no added bonus (though some add Essence to the mix) and often cost WP. Let's pit two essence 3 characters against one an other on a mental thing one "offense" the other "Defense": the "offense" gets a maximum of 13 Dice (23 with charms IF used in a combo) against a maximum difficulty of 10 (Integrity+Specialty+10will+3)/2 (20 with Excellencies, no combo required) to which you can add any virtue/Intimacy/Motivation modifiers which will usually help the defense, not always but usually... so let's see here you have to beat a difficulty that is almost as high as as you have dice? Knowing that on average it takes two dice to get one success, well you're note very likely to get it are you? And the problem gets worse as the defender's essence grows... the only reason this system can work is because of the Relative Appearance rule which if used properly can reduce the difficulty enough to make the roll possible (and even then it can work for the defender too)... your suggestion would in effect make it damn near impossible to ever affect Twilights (assuming they are built to resist) with mental effects for practically no cost... thus the solution of making it only work against Certain types of mental effects, limiting the effect's usefulness makes for a good excuse to reduce it's cost, and seeing as Twilights are not supposed to be Social characters, why would you set the bonus against social "Attacks"? on the other hand, they are Researchers, Truth Seekers, so giving a bonus against Illusions and deception makes sense... Also making it work against everything seems like it just turns it into a Cheaper version of the Chosen of Secret's anima effect except it only affects you, doesn't have the auto immunity effect, gives about 1/2 the bonus, and costs 1/10 of the cost (which let's face it is too much of a discount)... Then there's Invincible Ego Shield (use DMDV in stead of DDV for a full scene) that would also benefit from this power, essentially making you unhitable without perfect attacks (25 DDV total at essence 5, and that's without any artifacts or Hearthstones to boost it too, just Excellencies spammed for free thanks to Infinite Integrity Mastery. the best you can get without equipment in dodge is 18 otherwise, Hard to beat but not impossible)...


Eclipse


You know, now that you mention it, you're entirely right about 10m is too expensive for sealing pacts, only 1m is way too cheap though, 3-5 motes aught to be more than enough... and this should still cost 1 Wp I mean you are basically rewriting the laws of heaven to watch the participants more closely...


Well anyway that's what I think, feel free to Smack me upside the head and disregard any of this, but read it fist! Don't just smack first, ask questions Never Haha xD !
 
DAWN


The idea is that Elegant dance of Bow and Blade gets scrapped.


Not that any other caste will want it anyway...


I can agree for the Holy effect of the Zenith though.


Heart-Stopping-Mien is batshit insane and I will laugh hysterically at any of my players even suggesting to purchase it without any major nerfing.


The one with higher Essence has more powerful Charms, I see no problem with it.


And I don't care a fllp that I turned a defensive advantage into an offensive one.


Also, remember that an Ess 3 Dawn fighting an Ess 8 3rd Circle demon is going to get his ass handed anyway.


And it's not too much, it just scales with the challenge: it is a powerful edge, but far from a decisive one.


ZENITH


Ok, let's scrap the Virtue Suxx. What do you propose as alternative?


Also, I'd avoid additional rolls, such as Valor or WP checks like the pest.


TWILIGHT


Dawns are currently getting Scene-long +3 to both their DVs, what's the problem with adding +Ess/2 against a single attack to the far less used MDVs?


Also, please note that the MDV bonus is against deception only, ie deliberately false information, so its utility would bee limited in Social Combat.


Again, I can assure you that you can build a Dawn with such high DVs (prior to Charms) to be impossible to hit.


Twilight are supposed to be social characters as much as Investigation is a social ability.


If a single (obscure) Charm ruins these rules, I'd rather amend the Charm that give up the anima fix.


Otherwise, if you consider the overwhelming amount of Charms in Exalted, you'll never change anything.
 
Ya Heart-stopping Mien is pretty Strong but not unbeatable... example: Wood Immaculates or a Lunar with regenerative charms, those two just take the damage, Laugh it off, wait a bit to heal up and try again... but it is technically very easy to stop this charm, also you can use Perfect Soaks like Adamant skin Technique against it if you must, or post soak damage reduction since those aren't soaking, they reduce the damage itself but do not actually soak it... and though I think they just didn't phrase it right, or at least forgot to specify something: Majestic radiant Presence, and by Extension Dread Lord's Demeanor and Heart Stopping Mien, can be outright canceled by spending 3 Wp... now if you choose to use this interpretation or not is up to you (well ST really), the other interpretation is spending 3 WP allows you to attack freely but with the -2 penalty and taking damage... personally I find Killing words technique way worse, if you use it with lurking Malice Insinuation (At essence 4+) you order your opponent to do something he clearly doesn't want to, like say "Lay down your arms and surrender", assuming you succeed your roll, he now has a choice: Obey, or immediately take 5 Lethal damage that he cannot Soak by any means, because if he does it means he has to accept the order... Scary power...


Dawn


the biggest problem really with the "Add Accuracy" is that it can go over the normal Dice caps since it's an Anima effect... normally Solars of less than essence 6 are supposed to be capped at 23 (excluding weapon Acc and (Ability) Essence Flow (2.5 version) and stunts) with this Anima power it would easily increase that cap to 28 or more... Solars already have the highest Dice caps of any Exalted (Well except War form Lunars in Relentless Lunar Fury & such with maxed out Attributes and Abilities, but that's very costly in motes for them)... I'm not saying that Increasing their offensive abilities is a bad Idea, in fact it's a good one, if you follow that the Heroic Ideal is the Guy that one-shot's everything that comes in his path, and the day he finds something he can't one-shot he looses horribly... personally I prefer the Achilles style Hero, the guy that just won't die and will eventually take you down, in fact in his case he will do it pretty damn fast, just not instantly...


but like I said 3 DV is a LOT and I don't particularly agree on just how much it gives, along with it's other bonuses, including the whole "Run away cowards!" and "He's too scary for us to attack together" it's too many advantages compared to any other Anima from anything... honestly I think just the fear effects should stay (-1 external penalty, Rout, Coordinated attacks...though possibly increase the penalty to -2 unless WP is paid) they are strong enough as it is... at the same time like I said earlier, Offense could be good...hmm... Fear + Offense... we could extend the Fear given penalty to work on the opponent's defense...a 1 or 2 external penalty to both DVs unless willpower is spent, with attacks taking the other penalty (if def takes a -2, the attack takes a -1 or vice versa)?... hmm, what do you think of that for a offense and Defense effect? because it's counterable with WP it's not TOO overwhelming for the willing, but still potent. (also an Idea that comes to me from LARPing, people you've successfully intimidated don't dodge or Block as well, I've noticed...)


Zenith


well I thought that since you want to go with something that's just 1m and fits with the inspirational side of Zenith... why not make it an ability that you spend a mote, and the unit, be it for war or Social combat, automatically succeeds a rout check? the character is just so damn strong of character that his followers refuse to leave him even though they Know they are loosing... it may seem cheap if you're using an elite army of Badasses, but let's say you're helping peasants to overthrow a corrupt ruler(Possibly DB) and his elite army... will you ever be happy to be able to use this so your wimps don't run off and leave you alone! but this is just one Idea, there are possibly more valid ones out there?


You'll have to elaborate as to how I was right about the Holy... I said a lot of things: did you mean it should add to an already holy effect, or that it should be scrapped all together? In case you meant "Add to and already Holy Effect" here's an idea in stead of a roll: External penalties to the actions of the CoD against such an overwhelmingly Holy opponent, perhaps as much as the Zenith's Essence, normally this would be too much, but since it's limited to only work against CoD and you need to already have a holy effect ready, it would actually be workable...the Abyssal Equivalent could be "Against the Living" which would exclude demons, automatons and gods, but include all exalted and wyld creatures... and add itself to any Fear effect rather than Holy, Such as Resplendent Shadow Blade, in fact that's the effect that could be added in stead of Holy, or perhaps it could augment Ravening Mouth of (Ability)?... as for Infernals... honestly, I have no Ideas there...


Twilight


Remember that deception is a fairly broad term, it includes any illusion effect, after all the whole point of illusions is to deceive your perceptions... and there are quite a few Powerful Illusion charms out there, Spider's trap door is one example: makes you invisible so long as you commit the motes and keep stalking the dude (at the very least it CAN be interpreted that way), well the Twilight Illusion protection helps with that... Speaking of Lunars, Deception Includes the Tell... and any non true form... or disguise... just saying Deception is limited compared to a general MDV boost but it's not all THAT limited... I mean it may not protect you against Someone barking orders at you, but there are Integrity charms for that!


On a secondary note, remember that MDVs are as a general rule higher than PDVs and DDVs and harder to get past by default... any augmentations to them is therefore that much more potent, in the same way that adding 5% chance to succeed an action that already had a 85% chance of success is insignificant... but that same 5% on an action that you had only had a 2% chance of getting makes all the difference in the world... (or you know reverse this the other guy reduces your chances... you had 10% chance of Hitting him, then he reduces your chanced by 5%... half as many chances as your had before)


You also have to remember that once you Fail to beat an MDV for whatever reason you can't try again for that same action, for PDV and DDV you can try again as many times as you like until you get it... with mental effects, well you can try repeating the same order over and over again but odds are that if he ignored you the first time he's not gonna listen any more the 20th... and this includes Charms... Increasing you DDV or PDV makes things harder and/or longer to get through... MDV you only get one chance, so increasing it makes it MUCH harder to overcome...(sorry if I seem to repeat myself I want to make sure I'm "speaking" as clearly as I think I am)


I realize that including Invincible Ego Shield into the equation might just be Me over-thinking it, but I think you have to think of all possibilities when setting up a core concept to a character, such as the anima powers, since one detail we hadn't thought of might just throw everything out of balance later...
 
DAWN


You are forgetting some important detail: it gets to 28 against an Ess 5 something, which is usually not an easy opponent.


A +5 on attack is still less than a +3 on DV.


The Achilles style hero is the Zenith.


I would agree on immunity to fear and/or a Rout effect, but am not a big fan of all those +1/-1.


ZENITH


I like the auto success against Rout, but IME it's not something that happens often enough to make such a power worth.


I agreed that the Holy effect would duplicate a lot of Charms.


Right now I don't want to care about Aby or GSPs.


Also, Ravening Mouth has been Errataed into uselessness.


TWILIGHT


The current Twilight fix would work against all the Lunar stuff you listed already.


Yes, deception is broad and I'm ok with it.


Where does it say that if you fail to beat MDV you can try in the same action?


You can definitely flurry in Social Combat.
 
Dawn


well it's true that +5 Acc isn't quite 3 DV but but the 2.5 dawn thing isn't quite 3 DV almost but not quite, it's 2 DV and -1 External penalty, doesn't change much, but some effects to make a distinction between the two, such as Siddie Excellencies... anyway, like I said. dice caps were set for a reason, and any effect that can go over them should be carefully thought out, and are usually weaker because of the extra capacity, and usually have an explanation as to why they can do that, Panoptic Fusion Discipline for example just makes full Aim actions Reflexive adding 3 non charm dice to the pool, which doesn't even increase the dice Cap it just makes it faster to reach it for each attack... they explain it a bit in a sidebar in the lunar book in Charms chapter... there's also something about "the stronger the opponent the easier things get" that just annoys me, dunno what, but it does... the bigger they are the harder they fall if fun, but not "the more potent my opponent the easier for me it will be to hit"...


the invulnerability thing would be a common misconception about Achilles, I read somewhere that in the original (or at least one of the older versions of) Odyssey Achilles didn't have invulnerable skin he was just the greatest warrior the world had ever seen and no one was able to even hit him (Very High DVs), well he did get scratched once, and that was described as a "line of blood flying from his elbow" or something... and remember that he Led the 2500 Myrmidons(50 ships of 50 men) at the Battle of Troy...sounds a lot like a high Melee and War Dawn to me! Heck when he finally died from that arrow no honor or Glory was given to the guy who shot it! he hadn't faced Achilles after all...


Zenith


well apart from getting stronger against CoDs or stopping his followers from pissing their pants, or just saying NO to would be necromancers by making the soul skip the ghost stage and destroying the corpse... I don't really know what we could do for them...


Twilight


at the beginning of the Charms chapter where it makes the distinction between Natural and unnatural mental effects there was reference in there somewhere about trying to repeat the same too many times... but that might just be for Natural Mental Influences... not sure anymore I have like 8 different systems in my head at the moment, so maybe I'm mixing it up with something else at the moment... anyway, seems to me that just pestering the guy with the same question 20 times really shouldn't work even if you pump essence into it... well it might get him to punch you in the face though... or get you kicked out of a social event if he knows he can't do that, Heh...


and as for Social Flurries it seems to me those were designed to convince multiple people (Groups) or to convince the same person of two completely different things at the same time if you're in a rush, seeing as once you've succeeded you've changed their mind, there would be no point in flurrying to do the same argument (attack if you will) twice (seems to me that would sound something like stuttering xD , or at the very least Repeating yourself), when you could just focus and do it right the first time (without Multiple action penalties)...


Mind giving a write up of what's been changed up to now (or what all the animas look like now), please? I can't see in your head and I have no Idea which parts you've chosen to keep... thank you!
 
DAWN


Nope. Stronger opponents do not become easier than weaker opponents. By far.


They are easier for the Dawn than for the other Castes.


An attack dice bonus will give you an advantage but can't alone turn the tables, especially when powerful charms are involved.


Also, first nail down the mechanics, then come up with the fluff to explain it.


So far I'm keeping as my original proposal, but am open to something that would help against fear.


ZENITH


This is still very much up in the air.


Write down explicitly what you propose then.


TWILIGHT


If someone spends WP to resist a natural social attack, then he does not need to defend anymore from the same argument.


You can still attack, but you have to use a different angle at the very least.


I'd also keep this per my original proposal.
 
Dawn


Oh sorry, I probably got misunderstood, I didn't mean that they become easier than weaker opponents, I meant they get much easier than what they should be... and doing this kinda takes away from the "Epicness" of both the Dawn And his opponent, you suddenly get stronger because you're fighting a stronger opponent, and weaker against weaker ones? I get the appeal of "rising up to the challenge", but this mechanic doesn't exactly work like that anyway... as it is it doesn't make you stronger because your opponent is a better fighter, it make you stronger because he has more potent essence, even if said higher essence creature is built for nothing but diplomacy or Invention and as no Combat charms whatsoever, your method still makes them the dawn stronger against such opponents... in fact, in their case, they do become easier to kill BECAUSE they have higher essence... see the problem? and by contrast what if you're fighting a massive automaton with just about no essence but REALLY high physical attributes and a bunch of special combat oriented powers built in, he has low essence so you don't get much stronger despite the fact that that this is VERY much stronger than other things you have faced before...


I usually Work the other way around, I think of the Theme behind any given power, then work that into the mechanics... Neither way is good or bad they are just different Approaches, but I like to make things "fit" in the narrative first then see about how they work, since often the Mechanics part will need testing and reworking even after it's been used, but if you follow the guideline set by the Idea of it will make it easier to tweak...


Like I said before, constant Fear immunity is just too unbalancing with regards to the Mirror Exalted, but some form of resistance or temporary immunity might work...


Suggestions time! using your versions, adjusted versions of the 2.5s and what we've talked about as a base!


Permanent: Instinctively know any object designed as a weapon works


1m: Shake off and ignore any fear based effect for one action (making this into a free weapon draw would take away the option for other castes to do should they want to for character theme reasons)


5m/Flare: -2 Fear Based External penalty to all attacks towards the dawn (5 wp to overcome for the scene) (or maybe a -1 fear effect and a pressure based +1 DV so to no be completely canceled by spending Wp), +2 to difficulty to coordinate attacks against the dawn, -2 External penalty for opponent's rout checks... Finally Should the Dawn face a greater opponent, be it from having higher essence, or just plain being big and strong, the Dawn rises to the challenge and gains one automatic Success to all combat actions against such a worthy foe, the worthiness of any given enemy is determined solely by the storyteller. ( this method stops the possibility of botches dead in it's tracks against worthy opponents, and helps with Clinches for those Dawns that do them, it would also help with Reestablishing surprise with Foe-Vaulting method and such, making this power useful for ALL dawns and more flexible without giving it unbalancing boost that overwrites preset dice caps)


Zennith


Permanent: Priest, -1 difficulty on prayer rolls


1m: Burn away corpses and send the soul right to Lithe (it's just too useful against the dead and necromancers) Midnights still raise corpses into zombies.


5m/Flare: Enhance holy effects to inspire witnesses against Creatures of Darkness, granting them a +1 to All DVs (Including mental), and an automatic success to any action against them, these bonuses last a number of actions equal to the Zenith's essence (if it was not a scene long effect)... in mass combat (war or social) this increases the complimentary unit's Attack, damage, defense ratings, and gives them perfect morale against an army or Mob mostly constituted of Creatures of Darkness... Should the Zenith Not have any holy charms to be enhanced then he can comfort himself by knowing that he still gets a +1 to his all his DVs against CoDs (note that this is still in effect even if he has Holy charms). Midnights, Reverse these bonuses into fear based penalties against living creatures, and are activated by fear based or life draining Charms.


Twilight


so long as the "Deception" clause is integrated into the 1m power I'm happy, remember that they still have their turbo-boosted Sorcery as a primary effect to their Anima


Ya when I said "you can't try again" I meant you have to change something about your pitch before making an other attempt, there's a limit to how may ways you can pitch the same Idea before you run out!
 
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WorldOfBadass


Can you give me a single example from Exalted canon of an high-essence something that CAN'T kick ass?


Sorry, but you are really nitpicking now.


You will never find something that will cover ALL the cases that you want.


Propose any solution, I will find countless edge cases and strange things where it doesn't do what you intend.


There are only two questions to answer here:


1. Does it work better than the previous stuff?


2. Is it more fun than the previous stuff?


And if you want a third one:


3. Can I find something better?


So far I'm answering Yes, Yes, No respectively.


Also, theme =/= fluff.


Don't like two different things based on fear effects.


Dawns are about combat whether they are generals, fighters or assassins.


They are there to kick ass, not to scare people.


I'd keep the 1m to shake off fear, but only that.


Mmmh, +1 suxx and +1 DVs to social or combat units?


Not too bad, but at minimum should be Scene Long.


And weren't you opposed to have Solar powers that bolster others?
 
Sorry for the Great delay in my answer, I got suddenly called away into the woods for a week.


Hmm, well the first ting that comes to mind for "high-essence but doesn't Kick ass" would Be Desus, though he does Kick ass, relative to his level of essence he's fairly weak in combat. His preferred tactics are to either talk down his opponent(which almost always works), or Sic Lilith on whoever opposed him... there are probably others among the "Canon Characters" but mostly I was thinking of PCs specifically designed to not fit, but to do other things, such as craft or socialize or be a king who does not go onto the battlefield himself...


Following your first parameter... Theme should be a factor, and in my opinion it's the most important one. balance being the second. and that's what I'm basing myself from for this... and sometimes Balance is REALLY hard to do, why do you think WW has whole teams to test the crap outta the system before publishing, and even then they miss things occasionally... thus the Errata... I prefer to be Nitpicky, try and get it right the first time around and not end up with an absurdly over/under powered ability that makes way too many things get out of whack... but maybe that's just me, to each his own.


Dawns aren't assassins... well at least not the overly competent kind, they can be very good, but they'll never be on the level of a Night caste or a Changing moon caste (just those two's anima powers are more than enough for the role)... Dawns are just too obvious by default ( it can be partially overcome with a proper build and careful management of motes, but it's a pain to do)...


and ya I know that it's odd of me to suggest something like that, but I was trying to do something with your Idea of "Inspiring others" without going outside the theme of solars... the answer that came to me was: they are great leaders... if he only enhances his followers, not his circle mates, then it could be interpreted as simply enhancing his own leadership, which in turn results in making those that follow him more competent... as for mechanics, mass combat units are basically equipment, so really he's just boosting his gear, his meaty, boney, whiny gear! xD
 
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