Anti-cult?

P

Persell

Ten Thousand Club
So you've got these people that dig what you are, and send their daily good vibes out. Because you're a Solar and in tune with this sorta mojo, you get willpower and motes out of the deal. It's good ta be da king.


What if someone found a buncha other dudes that didn't groove to yo thang, but rather ground against it? Instead of working morning, noon, and night to send you warm fuzzies they busted out an organized metaphysical cold prickly cannon?


Or in other words, what might be the results of applying the principals of cults to Exalted, but in reverse?
 
I'm not sure there would be a way to magically take away Essence and Willpower directly from the Exalt. It would seem to me that the way to do this is to get your Anathema hating cultists to attack the Anathema loving cultists. That way, they won't be around to give the Anathema the warm fuzzies.


That's not to say you couldn't create something like this. It's emminently doable. I just think those same resources could be put to better use in other ways. But that's just me. As I said, there's no reason you couldn't do something like this yourself. The only trick is, unless there's another Exalt in charge of the process, how does a mortal go about doing such a thing? It'd have to be some major duty Thaumaturgy going on. With possible demon help.
 
I was just thinking of what sorts of effects it might have. Mirroring the cult background but stealing them is one way, but there's others.


Maybe choose one ability per dot in Anti-cult, the exalt has a -1 external penalty to rolls using that. Or once per story per Anti-cult dot the GM picks an automatic botch which the Exalt can accept or negate by spending something (maybe willpower). Or maybe it just sets up a sort of psychic static that interferes with the Exalt's own Cult (if he has one).


I don't picture it as needing an exalt or thamaturge to lead it any more than a cult needs a thaumaturge to direct their prayers. It would be a natural result of the "prayer conduit" that all exalts and gods have, not a ritual spell. For that reason, maybe you can't even choose what your anti-cult's effects are when you form it.


I'm not sure I'd ever use it, but it seemed like an interesting thought experiement so I tossed it out. :)
 
Actually, prayer is prayer, out of fear, hatred or thankfulness, no difference. If they pray day and night for mr. solar because they hate him so much, then it increases his cult background.
 
They're not praying to or for him, they're praying against him. It's a metaphysical distinction that has to be made for the idea to work.
 
Prayer out of fear giving Essence would be "Oh God, that crazy Solar bastard's gonna kill us all, please don't kill us we are nothing more than a mote of dust compared to your glory." And anti-cult prayer would be like... "Man, that Anathema is like, lame. He like, totally sucks. God I wish he doesn't end up doing anything heroic! Because he would stop sucking! He should continue failing, cuz he's like, uncool and Anathema and stuff!" except more serious? I dunno. >_>


If it's something like that I'd assume it decreases the Exalt's Cult benefits, if one has it. Not sure how it would be otherwise. Decrease the Exalt's natural Essence respiration rate?
 
If Exalted were vulnerable to that, the primordials would have just gotten all their first-circle demons to lay the bad juju on them.


In anny case, the idea that power is linked to belief and praise is a common one, but, as others say, its not about directing good stuff at them. It's about directing anything at them.


It works like this. Everything in Creation, whether large or small, concrete or absract, contains Essence. This is why gods exist. Even words, deeds and thoughts contain essence. And when those thoughts or words are directed at something with an essence pool, or deeds are done in their name, they gain that essence.


The amount of essence is so small that it takes very large numbers to have a concrete benefit. But what matters is that any attention, any words or thoughts directed at someone will give them essence. It may be unhealthy essence, but its essence all the same. In all other essence-removing effects, the essence is somehow sucked out. Directin something at someone will only have the opposite effect, even if its hate.


For there is power in hate, as well.
 
Well stated, Jukashi. I hadn't responded yet, since I hadn't figured out how to state the same best, but...you've done it for me. :)
 
Is that how canon explains it, or how you explain it?


In either case though, I'm talking about adding something to the system. Saying "the system doesn't work that way" is completely correct, but not very useful to me.


The primordials may have used it. I'm not saying it should be able to blow people up, just add another (minor) method of warfare amongst exalts.
 
You would effictevily give mortals access to sideral astrology that way. In my eyes not a good idea.
 
James, it's DEFINITELY how the canon setting works.


Also, note that you don't even NEED to have prayers/fear/horror from a massive group directed at you to gain benefits of cult.


In the East, there is a silvery tiger hungry ghost, known as Shade Tiger. It roams the entirety of Halta, hunting for flesh, blood and essence. And chasing after it is the Silver Child.


They're assumed to be gods of some kind, others think they're ghosts, but they're not sure HOW they're going about the entire region of Halta.


They've got stories, and there have been survivors of attacks from the tiger, and there have been enough sightings of Silver Child to tie her to the Tiger's mythos.


The Shade Tiger gets a cult of 1, based on sheer fear of it. Silver Child, despite only being tied as someone or something associated with the Shade Tiger has a rating of 2. And it's based all on fear, not worship or reverence. All the people know is that she follows and sometimes presages the Shade Tiger.
 
Safim said:
You would effictevily give mortals access to sideral astrology that way. In my eyes not a good idea.
Click to expand...
Since I haven't decided on a power level for it yet, it's hard to say that I'm mimicking a Sidereal ability, isn't it?


Haku: I'm not sure how that tiger works, since it's in direct violation of the cult rules, which specifically require prayers. It seems likely to me that at least 50 people out there are actively praying to it to leave them alone, especially if it says that they're assumed to be gods of some kind. If it actually says they get cult 1 without prayers they're breaking the rules of the cult background. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it makes it a bad thing to use as precedence.
 
They are praying for it to leave them the fuck alone. Which does translate into... prayers directed at it, even if it's indirectly.
 
Right, and I'm not talking about prayers, I'm talking about focused and directed negative vibes.
 
You're clearly bent on making and implementing it yourself anyway, so we should probably just stop trying to talk you out of it. Make some rules and we'll comment on those, and we'll toss the discussion on whether it's canonically feasible out the window, since it's not going to go anywhere.
 
Not if you make the metaphysical distinction that I said has to be made for the idea to work. If you don't like that distinction that's cool, but it means this thread probably isn't for you. I'm working under the assumptiong that negative prayers can have an effect, and trying to figure out what a fair and balanced affect would be.
 
honestly, the idea strikes me as over balancing and lame. were you to allow such effects in the game, a zenith or eclipse caste with the right social charms could build huge "ant-cults" all over creation and drop the power of there enemies significantly. because with the size of creation, and the amount of people in it, even a small effect could become nasty if used over a wide enough area.
 
He means that you're assuming a symmetry that doesn't necessarily have to exist. It's not to do with the rules.
 
Indeed. Even with a completely balanced game mechanic, if I'm a Zenith in the West, and I target an enemy in the East, what can that enemy do to stop the effect? Or vice versa? My problem with the idea is the relative lack of defense against it. If you don't know who's doing it, you're kind of screwed. And with the logidstics involved in trying to find out what's happening, it can unbalance the game even if, as previously stated, the game mechanic is completely balanced.


Having said that, I'll be happy to look at any rules you might have and comment on them. Just because I wouldn't use something in game doesn't mean I won't comment on them. :-) It's just that I have little interest in coming up with those mechanics myself, since I won't be using them....
 
Also... part of the problem here is it would be a -known- pheomena(spelling is off).


This means that you'll HAVE people using this against each other outside of your PCs.


And Sol have mercy on your PCs if they're solars OR lunars. See, there's this thing in Creation called the Immaculate Order. It vilifies anathema... like solars and lunars. So you're looking at a PERSISTENT penalty to them.


I would recommend some sort of manner to -resist- this effect. Say, that the ones doing the anti-culting have to roll vs target's essence score. Or the targets get to roll willpower + essence vs such effects. Or something.
 
Finding and stopping it: well, obviously there will need to be rules for it. Something as simple as thaumaturgy to track it and your own cult to counter it could work, although there are other options.


Known phenomenon in the hands of the Immaculate Order: yep, that's a danger. They'll have to have good intel on the PCs, and the PCs would have to find a way against it. Something like going and slaughtering the enemy's cultists would work, as would the "standard" protections against it.


Then again, it doesn't necessarily have to be a known phenomenon. Part of it's rules could require a brand new artifact, charm, spell, or thaumaturgical ritual to focus the anti-prayer.
 
Have the prayers (yes, your anti prayers are still prayers) go to some god of whatever with some custom curse charm that does what you want.


Citizens of City X are afriad of Mr Nasty Solar.  They say big prayers hoping he dies.  Some archtypical god strides up and offers to protect the city.  A statue of him is built and fresh flowers are woven into a crown by a dozen virgins every day of the year.  He uses a charm that gives Mr Nasty Solar a penalty equal to the essence of the god every action he takes against the city and within essence x10 miles he regens mana at half the normal rate.


DONE!  And without houserules about anti-prayers.
 
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