All right, let's talk about this thing

Jukashi

Four Thousand Club
So, I went on hiatus, a little holiday, and the purpose behind it was the hope that, after taking time away, I would feel much better about the comic when I got back - I would have missed doing it and it would therefore be more fun, easier and faster. Instead, as you witnessed with the update coming back from the holiday, it appears to now be much worse, to the point where I have stayed up through the night and into the evening of the next day trying to get it out of my head and into the computer.


I love this comic, I really do. I like writing the story, coming up with the characters, designing the look of places and people, writing dialogue, orchestrating events and depicting the action, and trying to bring the scope of the Exalted setting in there as well. I even enjoy comic minutia such as panel layout and pacing and toying with the medium, as I've already done, which most people wouldn't, I think. But actually making the comic - sitting down and moving sprites around and redrawing arms and backgrounds a half-dozen times each and cutting lines and moving things by fractions to get them in just the right position and realigning Marena's tattoos and getting people's hair right and so on and so on and so on... that is a terrible, tedious chore, especially since I did add the aforementioned arms. And, so, I'm basically not enjoying it any more.


Now, there are solutions.


The first thing I'm going to try is a concerted effort to break the comic-making process into manageable chunks. A third of a comic done every day will not only be less of an ordeal, hopefully, but end up producing an extra comic every three weeks. I'm hoping this will work, though it occurs to me with such a schedule that I will be doing more work than it takes to produce most newspaper comics. How amusing.


As for other options... well, I've got one, and I'd like to ask you for suggestions on others.


Some of you may (or may not) know that maybe a year ago I did Lunar Quest over on tgchan, a site for people to make and play suggest-an-action CYOA-style games/stories, in the style of MSPA, and which I thoroughly recommend to anyone who has the ability to ignore things they don't like. And when I began it, I used a style and method of production very similar to what I use in keychain now, albeit in black and white. Again, I soon found it to be deeply irritating, and after a while - and after getting a good tablet - I started to just draw things the normal way. And I found that to be a lot better!


So the other possibility is that I shift the art again and start to just draw the comic like other people do. The downside of this is that the visual quality of the comic will decrease, at least until I get better at it. Allow me to thoroughly embarrass myself by indicating a comic I did about My Little Pony as a rough example of the level it would probably begin at. Not a good one, in other words (though probably a bit better than that)! It would also be a gamble in that I don't know for sure the comic would become easier or more fun, it's just a possibility.


What do you think?
 
I can't say I have a problem with those drawings' quality, even if they are, as you said, decisively inferior.


To me, it works.
 
Jukashi said:
So the other possibility is that I shift the art again and start to just draw the comic like other people do. The downside of this is that the visual quality of the comic will decrease, at least until I get better at it. Allow me to thoroughly embarrass myself by indicating a comic I did about My Little Pony as a rough example of the level it would probably begin at. Not a good one, in other words (though probably a bit better than that)! It would also be a gamble in that I don't know for sure the comic would become easier or more fun, it's just a possibility.
That's a downgrade? The only thing that I see that is inferior to existing Keychain is the backgrounds being blank in the first few panels.
 
If your up to it I would like to see a shorter comic strip done every day rather than a change in style.


That said I'm easy to please as far as KoC goes. Its got a good story and the art change you suggested looks fine to me.
 
Kyeudo said:
Jukashi said:
So the other possibility is that I shift the art again and start to just draw the comic like other people do. The downside of this is that the visual quality of the comic will decrease, at least until I get better at it. Allow me to thoroughly embarrass myself by indicating a comic I did about My Little Pony as a rough example of the level it would probably begin at. Not a good one, in other words (though probably a bit better than that)! It would also be a gamble in that I don't know for sure the comic would become easier or more fun, it's just a possibility.
That's a downgrade? The only thing that I see that is inferior to existing Keychain is the backgrounds being blank in the first few panels.
There's some sort of "puni plush" feel to his current artwork that isn't in that Pwny art, if that's part of what he likes in KoC then his quality is definitely going to drop for a week or two.
 
Kyeudo said:
Jukashi said:
So the other possibility is that I shift the art again and start to just draw the comic like other people do. The downside of this is that the visual quality of the comic will decrease, at least until I get better at it. Allow me to thoroughly embarrass myself by indicating a comic I did about My Little Pony as a rough example of the level it would probably begin at. Not a good one, in other words (though probably a bit better than that)! It would also be a gamble in that I don't know for sure the comic would become easier or more fun, it's just a possibility.
That's a downgrade? The only thing that I see that is inferior to existing Keychain is the backgrounds being blank in the first few panels.
+1 (Second Excellency!) +5!


In all honestly, that doesn't seem like much of a downgrade as you've suggested, while I do notice a dip in quality, I don't doubt in the least you can not only meet KoC's normal level, but probably exceed it if you desire :D


I'm certainly in favor of making this easier on you, you do wonderful with this comic and I certainly don't want you to burn yourself out, and am rather certain the rest of us here can agree on that :)
 
Short answer:


Do whatever you have to, to make the comic more enjoyable. It's your project, and the most important thing is that it be satisfying for you to create.
 
I DEMAND DRESDEN CODAK STYLE AND LENGTH PAGES ON A THRICE WEEKLY SCHEDULE. THE QUALITY OF THIS FREE WEBCOMIC HAD BETTER NOT DISAPPOINT ME.


But if I can't have that, then y'know. I guess you should do what's best for you. And those alternate art styles are cool and stylized enough for me not to have a problem with 'em.
 
I've thought about recommending a "partial" or "one third" strip schedule for Mondays through Fridays...


Can't remember why I haven't though.


Any way, whatever method you choose will be fine by me. This is a free web-comic that you do for fun. You are not beholden to us. If you stopped completely I'd be perfectly fine with that. (Although finishing the storyline would be nice if that happened...)
 
Worst comes to worst, you can always use the stuff the spammer guy is announcing on this board O.o


I am curious to see the Keychain Circle in action with the new art. Maybe a demo pic?
 
Hrmmm, well, as I've started doing a webcomic in your style (which I've been a bit lax updating this winter, due to family eating up my time. I apologize for that, it'll return to a schedule very, very soon, two weeks at the latest) I can see where you're coming from.


Drawing each panel manually seems to me like more work than using and editing sprites, but I can understand how it would be much, much more interesting to do. My suggestion would be a little hybridization of the two styles: Everytime you draw a new pose for a character, save it, and use it if you come across a use for it again. Don't feel like you *have* to draw each character anew each time.


Also, you will probably have to simplify the designs of some characters a bit, notably Marena. (Lunars are consistently a pain to draw, it seems :( ) It'll make it easier to draw each time, and able to finish them faster. There's no shame in doing this :)


Lastly, the updates. I do like the idea of making a comic strip each day and posting it up, but I forsee a problem: what if you want to make a non-standard comic layout page? Say you want to do a "longshot" taking up two rows or something. I'm not sure if it's a big deal or not to you, I just wanted to bring to light.


*nods* alright, I hope that helped.
 
Well first of all, I will agree with the others that I feel no ownership of this comic or right to demand anything from you. You create something that is entertaining to read, and has a wide spread of characters with different backgrounds and moralities working together towards a greater goal. I am glad it is here, and would miss it if it was gone.


That said, I also know how doing something that you can enjoy, but feeling an obligation to do it for the sake of others can suck all the fun right out of it and turn play into work. You have already overcome this better than I have.


I will agree that there is a somewhat noticeable decrease in quality with the pony comic, however that decrease is small, and the art quality is still higher in many respects than many other webcomics.


The fact that you are doing all of this yourself and yet still have such a high quality standard is, quite frankly, amazing.


Your interpretation of the setting is quite interesting to see as well, and I am quite interested in seeing the revelation of several of the secrets that have been kept thus far (the truth about Misho, the situation with Marena's children, etc).


Now, with all of that said, I do have a few comments on what I would like to see happen, especially since you've asked for that input.


First of all, I honestly don't know all of what goes into one of your production schedules, nor how it is you say that "everyone else" does their webcomics.


If you know of some time saving techniques, use them, of course, especially ones that save time without a huge amount of impact on the comic.


There are only so many ways you really need to draw Marena with her arms crossed giving Misho a "Did you really say that?" look. On the other hand, if you don't have a pre-drawn Marena that fits what you want to convey, and you want to convey it, you should feel free to give her that new expression without worrying about whether or not it will make the comic a bit late.


In my personal opinion, would like you to first try the more relaxed schedule if you think it might work, along with trying various time saving techniques that you think will not have a substantial negative impact on quality, and see where it goes. It may be that you are able to get back to your old quality quickly after instituting new time saving measures, and may be able to institute more and more over time, taking off the stress, and increasing your over-all skill as an artist.


As a tracking trainer put it in another webcomic I enjoyed: "First you get good, then you get fast."


I am curious, though, as to whether or not there is any step of the work that you could outsource to some members of the community that you know and trust, and would feel happy or comfortable doing so with. Be it word balloon arrangement, type setting, or what have you.
 
I'm not in any way married to the art style of the comic. Please feel free to use whatever style you like.


(Also, as an aside? As someone who's seen that MLP comic reposted on /co/ dozens of times now, I'm sort of pleasantly shocked that it's your work. I'd never have made the connection myself.)
 
Garnett said:
I'm not in any way married to the art style of the comic. Please feel free to use whatever style you like.
(Also, as an aside? As someone who's seen that MLP comic reposted on /co/ dozens of times now, I'm sort of pleasantly shocked that it's your work. I'd never have made the connection myself.)
And the more I look at that comic, the more it inspires me to do a MLP roleplay.
 
Once a week would be fine with me even. As long as you update more often than VGcats *still checks site futilely for updates*.


As for the art style, maybe another art shift when Marena and Secret get to Celestial circle sorcery?


And maybe a cameo from Saulanna? (: P) Even if just a background character in a big Silver Pack meeting or something.
 
And maybe a cameo from Saulanna? (: P) Even if just a background character in a big Silver Pack meeting or something.
Saulanna has already appeared in the background once already!
 
Dragonmystic said:
Also, I had no knowledge of that site or thread on that board before this thread on this board, and I thought that thread on that board was rather neat.
Whut O..O
Apparently the humor in the vaugeness was lost. :P


I did not know about Lunar Quest until I read the thread we are currently talking in.
haha, sorry, sometimes I do that to jokes on accident, the joke killer of some sort. But alright, I see the point now
 
Provided it helps you overcome the problems you're having, I think I'd actually prefer you to draw the comic over what you're doing now. While I do like the current style, I think it'd also be fun to see the comic evolve in more obvious ways.
 
Dragonmystic said:
haha, sorry, sometimes I do that to jokes on accident, the joke killer of some sort. But alright, I see the point now
It's alright. Sometimes my humor is more confusing than humorous. Feedback helps me to improve.
 
I don't see much of a problem with an art shift. The example you showed is good enough for me, and has a certain Osamu Tetzuka feeling to it that promises good things once you get more comfortable with it. It would be very neat to see a sample with the characters from this comic, however. If it was my call, I'd rather see an art shift than a decrease in updates, but that's just me. In the end, the author has the right to do what he damn well pleases with his own work.
 
Jukashi said:
So the other possibility is that I shift the art again and start to just draw the comic like other people do. The downside of this is that the visual quality of the comic will decrease, at least until I get better at it. Allow me to thoroughly embarrass myself by indicating a comic I did about My Little Pony as a rough example of the level it would probably begin at. Not a good one, in other words (though probably a bit better than that)! It would also be a gamble in that I don't know for sure the comic would become easier or more fun, it's just a possibility.
I think this would be best.
Maybe it'll make the comic easier or more fun to draw, maybe it won't. But I think it'd be good to get practice drawing like that, at least -- even if the experiment fails and you don't feel that it's solved the main problem, you'll at least have something to show for it.
 

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